Paradox signs Mad Minute Games

[*Lava*]

Hi!

I would say the term Grog means a veteran who loves his passion, whether that be the army or wargaming.

Those who "dis" games, publishers and advocate boycotts are not grogs, they are narrow minded and spitefull little people who have an overinflated impression of their importance. They do irrepreparable harm to the community for which they "represent", the hobby in general, and in this case, Matrix in particular.

BTW Sarge, I'm not part of the MMG team and haven't been for a long time. Can't you read. The game being published is "Take Command: 2nd Manassas" not "The Civil War: Bull Run."

I'm just here voicing my opinion like any other Matrix member.

Oh, and let's try to act adult like, PM's don't intimidate me. You got something to whine about, write it for all to see.

Ray (alias Lava)

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Lava
I would say the term Grog means a veteran who loves his passion, whether that be the army or wargaming.

"Grog" was the watered-down rum ration distributed in the British Navy starting in the 18th century (it has an even more obscure meaning that has no application here - suffice it to say that sailors who were accustomed to full-strength rum stuck this term onto the new libation due to the thinness of the responsible officer's coat, but that's another story, of course). The term you people are intending to misapply is "grognard," which was Napoleon's slang for old veteran soldiers (it comes from a French verb meaning "to grumble or complain" and a French noun meaning, approximately, "curmudgeon").

"Grognard" was first applied to wargamers in a 1970s issue of S&T magazine, and the usage stuck.

Let's not confuse it any further than it already has been, or engage in the silly practice of guessing at what obscure terms mean, then applying a mistaken definition in an attempt to appear profound. People are not "grogs."

[Zap]

Paternaski, why didnt you come in with that explination a little ealier? [;)] So the term means (as applied to wargamers) simply a verteran player?

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Zap

Paternaski, why didnt you come in with that explination a little ealier? [;)] So the term means (as applied to wargamers) simply a verteran player?

Well, most people here already think I'm an overbearing @$$hole (a grognard pr1ck, so to speak), so I was trying to shut up for awhile. When I see guesses at definitions trying to pass for the real thing, though ...

"Grognard" is used to describe board wargamers who are ardent in their interest, in the same sense that any other hobbyist would be. The computer gaming business has picked up the term to describe someone who will buy any and all titles in a particular genre. How that got started, I'm not sure.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


Now now Sarge you're not being fair to the other games out there just as good.

1) Sid Meiers Gettysburg/Antietam

2) Hunters ACW

3) SSI's Civil War series: Gettysburg, Shilo, Antietam and Chickamauga

4) Talonsofts Civil War series: Same as above.

5) HPS Civil War series: They have quite a few from the Western Theater, this is unique since most mostly cover only the Eastern Theater, they recently release Campaigns Gettysburg.

6) North & South (comical/arcadelike version campaign game of the Civil War).

8) Blue Powder & Grey Smoke (bet many don't remember this one)

9) Lee vs Grant

10) The Blue & the Grey. (Not exactly sure about this title, it was one of Impressions games of the Civil War).

11) No Greater Glory

12) Oh and Civil War:Battle of Bull Run commonly known as Take Command 1861: Bull Run version/module. Oh wait you mentioned that one didn't you. heh

13) Honorable Mention: "Age of Rifles"

Absolutely , the HPS series was outstanding along with Sid's and SSI. But to tell ya the truth I enjoyed Take Command on the same level. I agree the no MP, and it also kept me from the purchase upon the release but I will not be making that mistake again.

[Sarge]

I'm just here voicing my opinion like any other Matrix member.

Oh, and let's try to act adult like, PM's don't intimidate me. You got something to whine about, write it for all to see.

Ray (alias Lava

[:D]

Edit: nevermind [8|]

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Zap

Paternaski, why didnt you come in with that explination a little ealier? [;)] So the term means (as applied to wargamers) simply a verteran player?

Well, most people here already think I'm an overbearing @$$hole (a grognard pr1ck, so to speak), so I was trying to shut up for awhile. When I see guesses at definitions trying to pass for the real thing, though ...

"Grognard" is used to describe board wargamers who are ardent in their interest, in the same sense that any other hobbyist would be. The computer gaming business has picked up the term to describe someone who will buy any and all titles in a particular genre. How that got started, I'm not sure.

Yes and you mustn't dis the publisher or developers or their games or you're not a grog! LOL If you do you're just a [narrow minded and spitefull little people/person who have an overinflated impression of their importance. They do irrepreparable harm to the community for which they "represent", the hobby in general, and in this case, Matrix in particular. ] LOL I must say I got my belly laugh for the day with that one. That statement reminded me of that Lawyer what's his name "Jack Thompson"??

[Marc von Martial]

The computer gaming business has picked up the term to describe someone who will buy any and all titles in a particular genre. How that got started, I'm not sure.

That`s a pretty new definition to me. I have never heard of "FPS Grogards".

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

"Grognard" is used to describe board wargamers who are ardent in their interest, in the same sense that any other hobbyist would be. The computer gaming business has picked up the term to describe someone who will buy any and all titles in a particular genre. How that got started, I'm not sure.

That's a new one on me as well. I've never seen it applied to non-wargamers, although there's certainly some variation in what might be considered a "grog" wargame.

[EnPeaSea]

ORIGINAL: Hertston

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

"Grognard" is used to describe board wargamers who are ardent in their interest, in the same sense that any other hobbyist would be. The computer gaming business has picked up the term to describe someone who will buy any and all titles in a particular genre. How that got started, I'm not sure.

That's a new one on me as well. I've never seen it applied to non-wargamers, although there's certainly some variation in what might be considered a "grog" wargame.

Outside of wargaming, I have seen the term applied often enough the rpg gamers. The term will sometimes crop up when some medium's fanbase has an aging and argumentative element that is obsessive of about the small details.

[ravinhood]

Yeah outside of wargaming the term is "hard-core" I think. But, there are some "grogs" in the RPG genre for sure. I've watched em rave about what's an rpg and what's not an rpg. Diablo isn't an rpg. lol As far as that goes what's it matter? I look at Diablo as the RTSers kiddlefied clickfest game for the RPG genre. But, I have to admit, now THAT kind of kiddiefied clickfest of a game I enjoy...why? Cause I only control ONE character. I can handle a clicky fest if it's just one character. I like Mario Karts so sue me. Some kiddy games I like, some are rediculous like the regular Mario platform games. I hate platform games, linear as heck and stupid for the most part. It's a sideways hack n slash or in the case of Mario Jump and Bump haha. I really don't like any game that feels like a rush job. Most console games give me that feeling. Just rush to the end so your kids will want you to buy them another and oh DAD don't forget the CHEAT codes we gotta have them so we can RUSH even faster so you can buy US more games.

I think all you fathers out there should "NEVER" let your kids use cheat codes. Make them EARN the victory screen (it'll save you money in the long run...trust me! LOL)

[bschulte1978]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Have you played this first MMG title, if you are a ACW buff its the title for you

Now now Sarge you're not being fair to the other games out there just as good.

1) Sid Meiers Gettysburg/Antietam

2) Hunters ACW

3) SSI's Civil War series: Gettysburg, Shilo, Antietam and Chickamauga

4) Talonsofts Civil War series: Same as above.

5) HPS Civil War series: They have quite a few from the Western Theater, this is unique since most mostly cover only the Eastern Theater, they recently release Campaigns Gettysburg.

6) North & South (comical/arcadelike version campaign game of the Civil War).

8) Blue Powder & Grey Smoke (bet many don't remember this one)

9) Lee vs Grant

10) The Blue & the Grey. (Not exactly sure about this title, it was one of Impressions games of the Civil War).

11) No Greater Glory

12) Oh and Civil War:Battle of Bull Run commonly known as Take Command 1861: Bull Run version/module. Oh wait you mentioned that one didn't you. heh

13) Honorable Mention: "Age of Rifles"

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an uncompensated playtester for both HPS and Mad Minute Games. I also own several of the Matrix games (SPWAW, WitP) and will buy any ACW titles Matrix comes out with. Basically, I'm a Civil War wargamer period, with a little bit of Napoleon and the World Wars thrown in for good measure. I've played all of these games Ravinhood mentions except for 8 and 11, and his contention that they are all "as good as" Civil War Bull Ru are for the most part inaccurate. I did not even know of MMG when I purchased Civil War Bull Run last January, but as soon as I played the game I liked it so much that I started a fan site almost immediately. I didn't join the MMG team as a playtester until September 2005. Out of all of these mentioned, I would say only the HPS games and Frank Hunter's From Sumter to Appomattox can even give the MMG boys a run for their money. Many of the people who have played SMG and SMA have said that CWBR is an improvement (aside from the lack of multiplayer) over those games. Most of the other games you mention are so old graphics-wise and gameplay-wise that they don't hold a candle to CWBR or the new MMG title on Second Manassas. I look at it this way. The HPS games are a definite improvement over the Talonsoft games, and MMG's games are a definite improvement over the Sid Meier games.

The Blue and the Gray???!!!! Come on. Get real. That game was a pile of crap, and anyone who has played it can tell you that. It looks like Ravinhood just picked as many Civil War titles as he could remember and threw them out as being "as good as" Civil War Bull Run. Ravinhood, your hatred of Paradox has clouded your ability to accurately review this game apparently. Have you even played it?

To everyone else reading this, don't allow others to cloud your judgment. There is a demo of CWBR at the Mad Minute Games' web site. Hopefully there will be a demo of Second Manassas at some point as well between now and April. I encourage everyone interested in the Civil War to download the demo and check it out. Make up your own mind, and don't allow anyone else to persuade you one way or the other.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Adam@madminutegames.com

It's very hard to get any kind of historical game into retail.

Well, at best that is only half the problem right? The other half is actually getting someone to buy it even then.

I counted today at my local Frye's, a place known for carrying lots of PC titles.

12 Copies of MMG Bull Run
15 Copies of Hearts of Iron II
5 Copies of Diplomacy
2 Copies of GGWaW
2 Copies of Korsun Pocket

A month and a half a go or so they had 5-6 copies of GGWaW and maybe 16 Diplomacy games. Clearly the number stocked in a title doesn't seem to correspond to the number or percentage sold, unless they are restocking games like HOI2 and Bull Run. Their price on Bull Run was 19.99.

I wonder if having a Paradox logo on the Bull Run box would help it sell. It doesn't seem to be helping move the HOI2 games there (Unless again they have restocked it which I doubt). Maybe everyone that wants either of the games already has them, but that wouldn't be such a great thought either..

I admit some ignorance to the retail process. I understand in many cases once a title is sold to Frye's its sold and it doesn't much matter if they sit on the shelf or get given or thrown away. But I do know in other cases or perhaps even in theirs it does very much matter from the publishers/developers stance profit wise.

I make no judgements about the game, just find it very very interesting that they would have so many copies (or even have ordered so many copies) of a game thought to not have good distribution or advertising (and that being blamed in part for its apparant poorer overall sales).

Anyway just an odd observation that I couldn't seem to explain...

[bschulte1978]

Veldor,

From my perspective, it simply seems like the Civil War trails at the very least World War 2 and Napoleonics in interest. There was a poll a while back on one of the Usenet wargaming groups, and I was surprised at how poorly the Civil War fared against the others.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: bschulte

Veldor,

From my perspective, it simply seems like the Civil War trails at the very least World War 2 and Napoleonics in interest. There was a poll a while back on one of the Usenet wargaming groups, and I was surprised at how poorly the Civil War fared against the others.

I'm in the process of conducting my own poll of several hundred, and while nearly every respondant did choose WW2, both the Civil War and Napoleonics were close enough to not have any distinguishable difference in interest.

I suppose it depends on who you survey and where they come from. For my part the respondants are made up of mostly Matrix, Wargamer, War-Forums, and Shrapnel members with about 15% coming from the Wargame Newsgroups.

Now the imporant part with both surveys is that they probably represent mostly the interests of wargamers themselves. With retail you'd have to also hope for someone with more general interest in that war to still pick it up. And there are simply far more WW2 and Civil War enthusiasts in the states anyway than Naploenics fans. Just look at our History Channel lineup to get a good feel for that.

Whatever the case, in at least one stores instance, it doesn't seem to matter

If you all were really dedicated MMG fans you'd be down at your local Frye's trying to move copies of the game... [:D]

[bschulte1978]

Veldor,

Where is the poll going to be located once you're finished? I'd love to see how the Civil War ends up doing.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: bschulte

Veldor,

Where is the poll going to be located once you're finished? I'd love to see how the Civil War ends up doing.

http://www.mnemonicgames.com/survey.html

I was waiting for at least 500 people to fill it out before posting any results (Pretty close I think though I haven't looked at it recently).

[ravinhood]

and his contention that they are all "as good as" Civil War Bull Ru are for the most part inaccurate.

By who's standards yours or mine? I feel they are all equally good, there's no best and no worst. So, speak for "yourself" instead of speaking of "MY" inaccuracies, I'm very accurate when it comes to games and reviewing them thank you very much.

By the way tadpole, I own every game I mentioned in that list, been gaming a longgggg time from commodore 64 to Amiga 500 to PC486sx25, etc. etc. I have an extensive library of many games in the past 25 years. I collect them as well as play them. And yep I've played MM Bull Run. It may be impressive to you to sit there and watch a movie with some input from time to time. I prefer more "hands-on" when I play and a bit more activity than I found out of MM's BR, the AI does way more than I expected it to do. And being that it does, it ruins a lot of my strategies and tactics. And no Multiplayer tisk tisk tisk, that's a major strike against it right there....2nd Manassas also, just wait an see.

[Confederate_Beagler]

found out of MM's BR, the AI does way more than I expected it to do. And being that it does, it ruins a lot of my strategies and tactics.

Sounds like someone is upset because he got his but handed to him by the AI[:D]

[bschulte1978]

I expected this sort of vitriolic response from you. I believe the majority of people who have played all of the games on your list would term your views inaccurate, at best.

If you honestly believe even half of the games on that list are as good as Civil War Bull Run, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

Don't listen to him people, and don't listen to me. We are both obviously biased. Play the demo. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't. It's as simple as that.