The return of tristanjohn

[Nikademus]

Don't recall saying it was a fanboy issue. Schuler complains high and mighty about the game being off, mostly in terms of how it represents the Japanese. I don't think he's ever even played the Japanese side.

Lets see Japan's uber-supply at work. Prove how the Zero bonus ruins the game. Japan side controls the pace during the beginning of the game. Lets see it. I want to see this AAR [:)]

[Nikademus]

Mog, were you replying to me.....am i being narrow minded?

(just kidding....hee hee.....[:D])

[Speedysteve]

Me too [8D] (want to see this AAR that is)

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Don't recall saying it was a fanboy issue. Schuler complains high and mighty about the game being off, mostly in terms of how it represents the Japanese. I don't think he's ever even played the Japanese side.

Lets see Japan's uber-supply at work. Prove how the Zero bonus ruins the game. Japan side controls the pace during the beginning of the game. Lets see it. I want to see this AAR [:)]

Playing one side or the other is irrelevant, aside from the fact that I'm vastly more familiar with the Allied OOB than Japan. I don't want this to become yet another chore.

[Mr.Frag]

Ron, I'd say the same to you that I did to TJ.

Your complaint stems from the fact that supply is too general ...

If AVGAS was separate from Fuel Oil/Coal and had to be transported to bases for aircraft to fly, it would make a huge difference in how the game played. A base could be attacked destroying the AV storage tanks rendering it out of service until repaired and re-supplied.

The same holds true for supply being broken down into 3 general catagories (general, ammo - small calibur, ammo - naval/arty). You'd use BB's completely differently if you had to transport the shells from home to a port capable of handling them then have to take the BB's there to get reloads (burning up extra fuel in the process I might add).

Again goes back to proper design document. Stuff like this can't just be retrofitted after the fact. It is too central to the core.

At it's heart, the Pacific Theater was a massive exercise in logistics. Sure, there were battles, but really it was all about the USA's production / transportation system vs Japan's production / transportation system. You can't battle without the goods of war.

WitP aimed for a market of people who actually play games and still have a life and simply couldn't cater at that depth level, nor would any AI capable of being written handle it. It is truely something that can only be done in a Human vs Human game.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm into playing with Tris as Allies vs a duo of IJ experten. The challenge has been placed out there by the staunch supporters of WITP for the critics of WITP to put up or shut up. This is a game to highlight the good and bad of WITP so it is a design analysis oriented test match. Of course, winning is of interest too considering the two Allied players are Jimmy Cagney and Edward G Robinson.[:)]


I can play a disgustingly massive volume of turns right now too (hopefully so can Tristan). Keep that in mind for those players willing to play as Japan.[8D]

I agree with Mogami, you need to play as Japan, not the Allies. I'll sign up to play the Allies against you and Tris (and I have never played the Allies in a PBEM, so the odds are that much more stacked in your favor). On the other hand, I'm not particularly interested in a team game, because playing teams is not exactly conducive to cranking out turns.

[Nikademus]

A very convenient excuse.

[:-]

[mogami]

Hi, No the supply gurus. Those who know it a nightmare and they could do better.
I'll tell you quite honestly. Anyone who fails to see the beauty and logic of the supply system well if a monkey looks in a mirror he don't see an angel looking back.

The elegant part is how every single item used cost load points equal to it load cost to transport while also expending that much supply.

It is two differnt things that Ron and TJ fail to see.

On Tarawa I have a Marine unit short a 105mm gun. If I had to track 105mm guns I would move one to SF and load it on a transport where it would take up x amount of load points. Producing the gun would cost so I'd pay x amount of my national resources (in this case measured as supply) So I load my gun and I move to Tarawa and give it to my unit.

In the game the space is kept track of by filling it with supply but this supply is in fact already consumed (to pay for building the gun in first place) I just don't see the price on my bill before my Marines get their gun. The result is exactly as if I loaded the gun and sent it in terms of supply consumed building it and load space on transport shipping it.

I know I know to me it is genius. Genuis often goes unrecognized it it's own time.
Supply is only used to replace aircraft or TOE items when
1. Unit is in range of HQ
2. Base has more then 2x required supply
3. Supply has moved in from another hex or hex is a supply orignator. (Not a supply producer the only hexes that are supply orgins in WITP are Karahci, Chungking, SF and Brisbane)(I think the Soviets have one)
4. and base has to have more then 20k supply

This means any base other then those listed that has supply can only have ammo or food.
A size 1 ,2,3, cannot reload larger then 5in cannot reload torpedos or mines

When a unit is in combat the first supply checked is its basic. A base that does not have basic supply will not provide supply to LCU for combat.
What this means is in the end any supply not required for basic is ammo (combat supply) thats the only function remaining. You can't give ammo unless you given food first. You can't give replacement unless food ammo and a surplus plus other conditions meant. In the end there is no magic supply except to persons who can't leave the tatical level of the game. Your staff always sees to it that the proper ratios of food and ammo are sent. All you have to do is keep the supply lines open and transports moving. Personally I don't want to have to load transports with items when I have several million helpers working for me. I think they can get it done If I plan the routes and provide the protection.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Ron, I'd say the same to you that I did to TJ.

Your complaint stems from the fact that supply is too general ...

If AVGAS was separate from Fuel Oil/Coal and had to be transported to bases for aircraft to fly, it would make a huge difference in how the game played. A base could be attacked destroying the AV storage tanks rendering it out of service until repaired and re-supplied.

The same holds true for supply being broken down into 3 general catagories (general, ammo - small calibur, ammo - naval/arty). You'd use BB's completely differently if you had to transport the shells from home to a port capable of handling them then have to take the BB's there to get reloads (burning up extra fuel in the process I might add).

Again goes back to proper design document. Stuff like this can't just be retrofitted after the fact. It is too central to the core.

At it's heart, the Pacific Theater was a massive exercise in logistics. Sure, there were battles, but really it was all about the USA's production / transportation system vs Japan's production / transportation system. You can't battle without the goods of war.

WitP aimed for a market of people who actually play games and still have a life and simply couldn't cater at that depth level, nor would any AI capable of being written handle it. It is truely something that can only be done in a Human vs Human game.

Hi Frag. How's the health? Hope all is good.

Back to the fray...[:)]
How bloody hard is it too nix the almost 1-1 ratio of resources-supply? Assume supply is military only and therefore must come from manufacturing centres? Why talk about food and basics when the entire civilian population of the vast Pacific Ocean Area has not been modelled? Too easy. Can't see it messing anything up. If it does mess the AI up simply release a feature where one can toggle between the 1-1 ratio or a resources only mode. (oh no, what's one more failing to add to it's resume?) I'd bet my right nut this would address many of the issues with logistics while keeping it simple and abstract.

[Nikademus]

I know.....my current game as Japan certainly saw no uber-supply. I was scrambling to bring enough fuel foward to feed my thirsty warships (and that was when i was attacking Java!) Supply got dangerously drained during these operations in Japan. I have lots of supply now...but only because the front has been static for over a year. I've had plenty of time to build up my defences.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, No the supply gurus. Those who know it a nightmare and they could do better.
I'll tell you quite honestly. Anyone who fails to see the beauty and logic of the supply system well if a monkey looks in a mirror he don't see an angel looking back.

The elegant part is how every single item used cost load points equal to it load cost to transport while also expending that much supply.

It is two differnt things that Ron and TJ fail to see.

On Tarawa I have a Marine unit short a 105mm gun. If I had to track 105mm guns I would move one to SF and load it on a transport where it would take up x amount of load points. Producing the gun would cost so I'd pay x amount of my national resources (in this case measured as supply) So I load my gun and I move to Tarawa and give it to my unit.

In the game the space is kept track of by filling it with supply but this supply is in fact already consumed (to pay for building the gun in first place) I just don't see the price on my bill before my Marines get their gun. The result is exactly as if I loaded the gun and sent it in terms of supply consumed building it and load space on transport shipping it.

I know I know to me it is genius. Genuis often goes unrecognized it it's own time.

I know it is actually quite elegant in some ways. But not when supply is produced at a resource centre! Given the elegance of the supply model, how can your example of the 105mm Howitzer have gotten there without the benefit of shipping? But alas it does because supply magically appears there almost one to one at a resource centre. Not very elegant when one looks at it this way. All that needs to be done (again, for the upteenth time is get rid of the concept of supply as food and simply view it as war material. Get this food thing out of ones head. Then, by simply removing the equal supply to resource production the logistics system actually has a chance of being just that... a system that works, and probably the way the devs desired it to. What is so frustrating is that it is so close to potentially working if they put the miidle management back in...industry and merchant shipping.

[mogami]

Hi, What is the largest resource center on map? Tolibai or something near Palembang.
900 resource centers So it produces 1125 reource points that are useless unless shiped to HI hex.
It also produces 900 supply
Now the ships required to haul the resources could haul supply instead there and unload and build units and such and the end result would be exactly the same as it is now as far as Japanese supply and replacement goes. They don't produce when enemy is in hex so they don't help that at all. Wheres the beef? These bases are size 1 ports so they don't help TF or airgroups at all. What does 60k supply sitting in the middle of nowhere in June 42 distrub you? (unless the Japan do a build up it does not get much higher then that at 100 percent output becasue supply wastes)

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I know.....my current game as Japan certainly saw no uber-supply. I was scrambling to bring enough fuel foward to feed my thirsty warships (and that was when i was attacking Java!) Supply got dangerously drained during these operations in Japan. I have lots of supply now...but only because the front has been static for over a year. I've had plenty of time to build up my defences.

Agreed. I can't go into mega detail due to the game still being current but in one of my PBEM's as Japan I literally am using 2/3 of my TK fleet bringing fuel to the forward bases to allow any sort of naval offensive to occur in the south pacific. By that I mean. BB's can sortie as can KB but only once every 3-4 weeks.

Keep in mind this means that my oil levels in Japan are dropping since only 1/3 of my TK fleet is bringing oil to Japan.

Resource/Supply -

I am also struggling to keep my forward bases above 20,000 supply in a lot of places. I have been lucky to capture most of the big resource centres relatively intact but the sheer distances invovled across the Pacific and the levels of supply needed to keep the men fed strains even the 95% SRA production.

[mogami]

Hi, 70 percent of SRA was enough to keep Japan going 100 percent. It was never not having it to move but in moving it. 400,000 oil points in Palembang does Japan exactly squat.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, 70 percent of SRA was enough to keep Japan going 100 percent. It was never not having it to move but in moving it. 400,000 oil points in Palembang does Japan exactly squat.

Exactly. I have a helluva lot more oil and resource sitting in the SRA production places than I can ever aim to move. As such Japan is receiving bits of it but not enough to produce mountains and mountains of supply and fuel for me to get to the front (as mentioned a lot of the auxilliary fleet is dedicated to keep the men and ships full up as possible)

[mogami]

Hi, we need the old how much does Japan need per day just to break even thread.
See we did all this research came up with numbers played the game and it worked. Now we have forgotton the numbers but we still know it works.

[Nikademus]

and i'm doing everything in my power to make his 'take' that much less. (no sir Robin for this one)

[mogami]

Hi, I think the SIr Robin is more problem then any other single issue in game. It transplants the war from SRA to whereever the Japanese wish at no cost.

I blitzed TH in Java and he ran from Singapore but Manila redeemed him. If it had fallen when planned (still not sure what went wrong there to little up front ) I would be gazing at auto victory. Supply would have had nothing to do with it.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, What is the largest resource center on map? Tolibai or something near Palembang.
900 resource centers So it produces 1125 reource points that are useless unless shiped to HI hex.
It also produces 900 supply
Now the ships required to haul the resources could haul supply instead there and unload and build units and such and the end result would be exactly the same as it is now as far as Japanese supply and replacement goes. They don't produce when enemy is in hex so they don't help that at all. Wheres the beef?

Look at it this way. Supply needs to be looked at as purely military given the abstract approach neccesitated by the scale of the game. Period. As such those 900 supply are the beef. Why? Because it is incompatible Allied military supply yet can now be immediately converted to Japanese manufactured ammo, weapons etc ONSITE, no shipping necessary. If it were just resources or predominantly resources with some compatible supply (fuel, stores etc), those same resources would have to be shipped back to a Japanese industrial centre and manufactured into Japanese military supply and by so doing making the elegance of the logistics model work and slowing down the games torrid pace.

[Nikademus]

no argument from me. My Allied opponent didn't sir robin and fought a good defense for Java.....i planned well, and succeeded and when i was done.....my timetable matched the historical one almost exactly. Maybe a better or more reckless player could speed up the timetable....the game allows that....risk entails additional losses however....as Japan...i wanted to minimize my losses. pretty much how i always play....like there are lives at stake.