1.04 The Wolf and the Bear (no Gids)

[Baelfiin]

Those '44 ToE's are not that strong also

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 171. September 21 1944.

Mighty waves of Soviet attackers hit Army Group Center and South. The front in the Ukraine is crumbling. As some small consolation, the Soviet northern offensive seems to have stalled at the Volchov.

[Tarhunnas]

In Northern Ukraine, an awkward breakthrough leaves several German divisions temporarily out of supply. My weak front of mainly CV1 units makes these things more and more frequent, and I no longer have the panzer reserves to counterattack.

[Tarhunnas]

Situation stabilised... temporarily at least, by counterattacks. Map after Axis moves.

[Flaviusx]

You've got what, 3 more turns till mud? Hang in there, the clock is ticking. I don't think he can cross the Dnestr in time.

It's gonna get ugly when the rivers freeze over though.

[ComradeP]

Tarhunnas, could you post a losses and OOB screenshot?

Unless he can race to Berlin, this looks like it will be a draw.

You get some serious reinforcements early in 1945 that should allow you to at least hold Berlin, if he gets close.

[Tarhunnas]

Losses and OOB Turn 171.

[ComradeP]

Wow, those are some ugly losses compared to turn 158.

German OOB strength decreased by 500.000, almost 30.000(!) trucks lost in combat in those 13 turns.

At least Soviet strength only increased slightly. Their AFV totals actually went down (as did yours, by a spectacular drop of ~1200).

[Tarhunnas]

Weakness begets weakness... My weak units leads to units surrounded which makes me weaker still.... There seems to be a tipping point.

[Peltonx]

2.3 million is the breaking point.

The mud will slow him then the flood gates open.

With 54 turns left its not looking good, I dought you get a draw even. Once he pockets a few units all your replasements get dumped into usless units. That really needs to get fixed at some point.

The problem late in war is its so easy for the Red machine to break German army. Once broken you are helpless, because you cant recover. The logistics is a really screwed up part of the game for both sides.

Your one chance is to run back around berlin and pack in your none ant units.

The same issue will happen in all the 1.05 games as is happening in yours.

You have done far far better then historical in all areas yet the red machine is still going to win.

Chances are under 1.05 he would have never recovered and you would have won out right in 43.

Good luck.

[krupp_88mm]

With 54 turns left its not looking good,

i agree about the problesm buttt

sure there are 54 turns left but at least 8 or more of those are in bad weather and will be time to recover slightly so its really more like 45 left. Hes still wayyyy ahead of historical lines.. hundreds and hundreds of miles in some spots, he can pull back and shorten his front, he can ride trains back while the russians will have to march through occupied territory, if i were tarhunas id think seriously about railing back my norther front to east germany after mud is over to start fort construction and R&R, let him walk to your river lines, the terrain is very favorable for defense so even those ants can put up a stubborn delay. I dont know about the game definitions for victory or defeat but i personally consider anything beyond the historical end date of the war (for captured berlin a vic and anything less defeat.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
2.3 million is the breaking point.

The mud will slow him then the flood gates open.

With 54 turns left its not looking good, I dought you get a draw even. Once he pockets a few units all your replasements get dumped into usless units. That really needs to get fixed at some point.

The problem late in war is its so easy for the Red machine to break German army. Once broken you are helpless, because you cant recover. The logistics is a really screwed up part of the game for both sides.

Yes... You survived a lot longer already than I would have expected, great work on your side. You are positioned still very well in the North, and the Soviets will have to march steadily to get to Berlin by spring. Now you probably reached the tipping point for a self-accelerating process until he reaches Berlin. Ideally your opponent could make some leaps forward in full strength, wrecking and maybe pocketing parts of the Axis Army, but after a few 100 miles he ought to at least need to rest and wait for resupply on part of his force, and perhaps even have to wait for the railheads to catch up. Guess that won't happen and he can now rather continuously advance as your Wehrmacht falls apart. I am curious to see how quick the advance will be as it may shed some light on the degree that logistics is too forgiving.

I think it is related to the German advance in 41, although the effect might naturally be worse for the much larger Red Army once it is ready to roll. They really ought to take a closer look at logistics. I rather have a harder time reaching Moscow, Leningrad or Rostov by November 41 and in return be able to survive into summer 45 (assuming I do better...) instead of seeing the Wehrmacht disintegrate and never recover.
Instead of discussing C&C issues that is what the WiTE community should ask about in first instance. With logistics being tighter, I believe a lot of "strange phenomena" from the high op-tempo when advancing far ahead of supply lines, the ability to sustain large-scale offensives for very long periods after summer 41, the ease of Lvov or in correspondingly the crushing of the late war German lines, the race for Leningrad, the powerful spring offensives, etc. would be mitigated largely. Also the leadership would become more crucial and here the Germans already have the benefit of better C&C shown by significantly better chances on successful dice roles.
Would there be any negative effects to tighter logistics? Perhaps the advance in the South in 41 would even become slower, particularly if Axis fails to make the Lvov pocket or an even large Kiev pocket, given Lvov left these units alive. I keep wondering how the Germans could get to Rostov in 41, and the only answer I have is that the Kiev pocket came at the right time and right size, and as a big surprise, so that afterward the Germans could advance thru a vacuum without much organized resistance left.

I also agree that the Germans should be allowed to decided (at least after a certain date) which units to rebuild, and which not. And also should be given some freedom like the Soviets to build additional units. Support units at the very least, resources for the rest might be tight anyway. Also HQ's would be an important addition. Right now your replacements should all go to your remaining frontline units if you wanted to stay somewhat competitive.
Alternatively, also give the Soviets a historically fixed schedule for building new units, and allow only a similar automatic replacement of destroyed ones. Dealing up AP costs for the Soviets and in return offering them a large AP pool or addition rate sounds like a bad idea to me, since they can be used for so many things that could improve the Red Army much more than the auto-rebuild, poor morale units that will eat up valuable replacements as well...

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: janh

Yes... You survived a lot longer already than I would have expected, great work on your side. You are positioned still very well in the North, and the Soviets will have to march steadily to get to Berlin by spring. Now you probably reached the tipping point for a self-accelerating process until he reaches Berlin. Ideally your opponent could make some leaps forward in full strength, wrecking and maybe pocketing parts of the Axis Army, but after a few 100 miles he ought to at least need to rest and wait for resupply on part of his force, and perhaps even have to wait for the railheads to catch up. Guess that won't happen and he can now rather continuously advance as your Wehrmacht falls apart. I am curious to see how quick the advance will be as it may shed some light on the degree that logistics is too forgiving.

I sincerely think that his northern position is a house of cards. I would have the Finns to fall back towards Leningrad and fight there their last battle.

If the center crumbles - and it will probably happen sooner or later - then AGN right flank will be in the air (what actually happened back in summer 1944). I think that Krupp (?) suggestion of starting to retire towards Eastern Prussia isn't such a bad idea. Even with the forgiving logistics, if he manages to get gids to chase him, his troops will be crap, ten or fifteen hexes away from their railheads.

ORIGINAL: janh
I think it is related to the German advance in 41, although the effect might naturally be worse for the much larger Red Army once it is ready to roll. They really ought to take a closer look at logistics. I rather have a harder time reaching Moscow, Leningrad or Rostov by November 41 and in return be able to survive into summer 45 (assuming I do better...) instead of seeing the Wehrmacht disintegrate and never recover.

I agree with you janh - or I think so. This thing of constraining the Axis so much w.r.t. to organization never has made much sense. I wonder if committing to "alternate" organizations, such as mechanized brigades would perhaps work well. And auto-rebuilds aren't really a good thing for either side. To be honest, playing as the soviet during 1941 I'd have loved to have an option to control this rather than having to control it by clicking way too many times on the Commander's Report to switch off Refit status.

ORIGINAL: janh
Instead of discussing C&C issues that is what the WiTE community should ask about in first instance. With logistics being tighter, I believe a lot of "strange phenomena" from the high op-tempo when advancing far ahead of supply lines, the ability to sustain large-scale offensives for very long periods after summer 41, the ease of Lvov or in correspondingly the crushing of the late war German lines, the race for Leningrad, the powerful spring offensives, etc. would be mitigated largely. Also the leadership would become more crucial and here the Germans already have the benefit of better C&C shown by significantly better chances on successful dice roles.
Would there be any negative effects to tighter logistics? Perhaps the advance in the South in 41 would even become slower, particularly if Axis fails to make the Lvov pocket or an even large Kiev pocket, given Lvov left these units alive. I keep wondering how the Germans could get to Rostov in 41, and the only answer I have is that the Kiev pocket came at the right time and right size, and as a big surprise, so that afterward the Germans could advance thru a vacuum without much organized resistance left.

I think you got the right answer, janh.

ORIGINAL: janh
I also agree that the Germans should be allowed to decided (at least after a certain date) which units to rebuild, and which not. And also should be given some freedom like the Soviets to build additional units. Support units at the very least, resources for the rest might be tight anyway. Also HQ's would be an important addition. Right now your replacements should all go to your remaining frontline units if you wanted to stay somewhat competitive.

Yes, though I don't see much room for maneuver for the Axis, given its lack of strategic depth. As I said above trying to fight with Panzer Brigades, rather than Panzer Divisions that will never be with high TOE levels, and especially, having part if not all of German SU's becoming on-map units (so their Refit status can be adjusted at leisure) is part of the answer (btw, check the Campaign mod by TAIL_GUNNER, he does this and I do sincerely think this might be a very good idea).

ORIGINAL: janh
Alternatively, also give the Soviets a historically fixed schedule for building new units, and allow only a similar automatic replacement of destroyed ones. Dealing up AP costs for the Soviets and in return offering them a large AP pool or addition rate sounds like a bad idea to me, since they can be used for so many things that could improve the Red Army much more than the auto-rebuild, poor morale units that will eat up valuable replacements as well...

I do sincerely think auto-rebuilds should be something left entirely out of the game, or at least, becoming an optional game setting for both sides.

[Flaviusx]

I hate to admit it, but the ponies are starting to grow on me.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I hate to admit it, but the ponies are starting to grow on me.

If he replaced the drafted painting with an operational map and the pony herself was dressed in feldgrau, I will make that my forum signature

[krupp_88mm]

If he replaced the drafted painting with an operational map and the pony herself was dressed in feldgrau, I will make that my forum signature

What a fabulous idea

ill get right to work on that outfit!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji0tpUM8 ... r_embedded

[mmarquo]

Depending on the TOE, your forts represent a very large manpower sink. Consider disbanding every unnecessary fort, especially those occupied by another fighting unit.

Marquo

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Depending on the TOE, your forts represent a very large manpower sink. Consider disbanding every unnecessary fort, especially those occupied by another fighting unit.

Marquo

Yes, I have my doubts as to if they are cost effective. The fortifications they build are mostly swept away rather quickly.

[Tarhunnas]

Turn 173. October 5 1944.

The southern front is crumbling. Almost all units are now CV 1. Major withdrawals are necessary. Map after Axis moves.

[Tarhunnas]

East of Vinnitsa, another encirclement, and another breakout (or rather break-in).