AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

NO REBEL UNITS JUST ECONOMIC DAMAGE AND SUPPLY INTERDICTION

As always, and once again, thanks for the reply Andy.

Supply interdiction? Ready to share any details on that?

[Andy Mac]

Supply interdiction is just that no supply passses through the hex if under garrisoned as per stock

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

From Torres Strait Force, Reg. A. Ball, ISBN 0-646-20749-0

(condensed)

Strength as of Jan 12, 1943:
(a) Company Group, 62nd Australian Infantry Battalion: “C” Company, 2 detachments of 3-inch mortars, 3 Light Combat Tanks (Marmon Harringtons), attached transport, signal, medical detachments.
(b) Battery “D”, 104th US AA Battalion (Separate)
(c) One Company N.E.I. comprising
· One MMG Platoon
· One LMG Platoon
· One Anti Tank Platoon
· One 60mm Platoon with 3 mortars
(d) R.A.A.F. Radio Installation Personnel
(e) Port Detachment “A”, US
(f) No. 26 Portable Hospital, US

There was also a Dutch civilian police unit that was assigned defensive responsibilities.

Following additional information is given concerning 1st N.E.I. Fusilier Company:

So many crew served weapons that there was no actual infantry strength (sounds a lot like the US Marine Defense Battalions).

Defense Plan lists detail assignments (only Dutch troops listed):

No. 1 Locality:
Three 37mm A/T guns
One 60mm Mortar detachment
One 30 Lewis L.M.G. section
N.E.I Police, less patrol details

No. 2 Locality:
One 37mm A/T section
One section with 2 .30 Brownings
One 60mm section
One .30 Lewis LMG section

No. 3 Locality:
One section with 2 .30 Brownings
“two” 60mm mortar detachment (note below)
One .30 Madson LMG section
One .50 Cal MG Section

Wendow:
N.E.I. police details will maintain a patrol at Wendow to operate North of Merauke River.

Note: The summary lists three N.E.I. 60mm Mortars. One section each is specified for No. 1 and No. 2 locality, plus “two” section in No. 3 locality. Either this is one actual section - #2 section – or the summary and detail are out of sync.


Of interest are the three Marmon Harrington light tanks. These were from Dutch orders that were not delivered prior to the fall of Java. A total of 54 CTLS model were enroute Java aboard five merchant ships when Java was lost (USAT Mapia, Dutch Bantam, Tabian, and Weltevreden). They diverted to Australia, and later shipments increased the total to 149. These were all the 2-man, 3-MG version. They were assigned to the US and Australian Army and were used for training and reconnaissance. Three Australian units went to Merauke and others were stationed at Thursday Island and Jacky Jacky (on the tip of the York Peninsula). When all of 62nd Bn arrived at Merauke, the 3 light tanks there were attached to 62nd Battalion’s Carrier Platoon.


I have also verified that 1st N.E.I. Fusilier Company is listed at Merauke for the entire length of the force assignment data: from November, 1941 thru June, 1945 inclusive. The list stops at June, 1945.

It's settled then.

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK as promised

Dutch Garrison of Java

1st, 2nd,4th,6th and Barisen Regts
Tjilitjap Indpt Garrison Bn on the West Coast
1 x Regt Cavalrie
1 x Ard Bn
1 x Indpt Ard Sqn

3 Coastal Gun Bns
2 AA bns

Plus various base forces and support units about 39,000 men

How about this?

Java
KNIL order of Battle
as of February 28th, 1942

West Groep
Batavia-Tj.Priok Detachment (CD/AA)
1st KNIL Regiment
2nd KNIL Regiment
1st KNIL Cavalry Squadron
5th KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Afdeling Hubar
1st KNIL Howitzer Battalion
1st KNIL Mountain Artillery Battalion
1st Landstorm Battalion
4th Landstorm Battalion
Landstorm Soekaboemi
Milius Detachment

Groep Bandoeng
4th KNIL Regiment
Van Altena Detachment
3rd KNIL AA Battalion
2nd KNIL Mountain Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Field Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Mobiele Eenheid
Afdeling Ritman

IIe Divisie
Tjilatjap Detachment (Infantry unit + CD/AA)
Groep Zuid
Groep Madioen/Tjepoe
4th KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Lijfwacht Cavalry Squadron
Depot Cavalerie
1st KNIL Pioneer Company
3rd KNIL Pioneer Company

IIIe Divisie
6th KNIL Regiment
Marinebataljon
Bataljon Roodenburg
Madoera Detachment
Korps Prajoda (on Bali)
Artilleriecommando [Soerabaja] (CD/AA)
2nd Landstorm Battalion
3rd Landstorm Battalion
3rd KNIL Cavalry Squadron
1st KNIL Field Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Pioneer Company

This order of battle contains every regular, volunteer and landstorm unit that actually took some part in the fight.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Supply interdiction is just that no supply passses through the hex if under garrisoned as per stock

Didnt realise that it was in stock. Thanks again.

[Andy Mac]

Some of these are below the level of detail we incorporated or are included in the base force detatchments or the Regt groups - e.g. the arty regts

Only the Lijfwacht Cavalry Squadron is seperately represented the other Cav Sqns for part of 1st Cav Regt

Mobiele is the Tank Bn we have at present

My only question is the Landstorm Bn's - are they like a home guard type unit ?

The base forces on Java have de facto a weak attached Infantry Bn that probably cover these units

Andy

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK as promised

Dutch Garrison of Java

1st, 2nd,4th,6th and Barisen Regts
Tjilitjap Indpt Garrison Bn on the West Coast
1 x Regt Cavalrie
1 x Ard Bn
1 x Indpt Ard Sqn

3 Coastal Gun Bns
2 AA bns

Plus various base forces and support units about 39,000 men

How about this?

Java
KNIL order of Battle
as of February 28th, 1942

West Groep
Batavia-Tj.Priok Detachment (CD/AA)
1st KNIL Regiment
2nd KNIL Regiment
1st KNIL Cavalry Squadron
5th KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Afdeling Hubar
1st KNIL Howitzer Battalion
1st KNIL Mountain Artillery Battalion
1st Landstorm Battalion
4th Landstorm Battalion
Landstorm Soekaboemi
Milius Detachment

Groep Bandoeng
4th KNIL Regiment
Van Altena Detachment
3rd KNIL AA Battalion
2nd KNIL Mountain Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Field Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Mobiele Eenheid
Afdeling Ritman

IIe Divisie
Tjilatjap Detachment (Infantry unit + CD/AA)
Groep Zuid
Groep Madioen/Tjepoe
4th KNIL Cavalry Squadron
Lijfwacht Cavalry Squadron
Depot Cavalerie
1st KNIL Pioneer Company
3rd KNIL Pioneer Company

IIIe Divisie
6th KNIL Regiment
Marinebataljon
Bataljon Roodenburg
Madoera Detachment
Korps Prajoda (on Bali)
Artilleriecommando [Soerabaja] (CD/AA)
2nd Landstorm Battalion
3rd Landstorm Battalion
3rd KNIL Cavalry Squadron
1st KNIL Field Artillery Battalion
2nd KNIL Pioneer Company

This order of battle contains every regular, volunteer and landstorm unit that actually took some part in the fight.

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Some of these are below the level of detail we incorporated or are included in the base force detatchments or the Regt groups - e.g. the arty regts

Yep, I already guessed that.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Only the Lijfwacht Cavalry Squadron is seperately represented the other Cav Sqns for part of 1st Cav Regt

Mobiele is the Tank Bn we have at present

Regarding the scale of witp, this makes sense. But 1st Cavalry Regiment was created for administrative reasons only. And it contained only the 3 cavalry squadrons from Ie Divisie (Groep West/Groep Bandoeng). It still makes sense, though I would attach the Lijfwacht too. Since 4th/Lijfwacht/3rd fought many skirmishes 1st Cav should be located in central Java (Djokjakarta in stock, or Magelang if present in AE).

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My only question is the Landstorm Bn's - are they like a home guard type unit ?

The base forces on Java have de facto a weak attached Infantry Bn that probably cover these units

Andy

Landstorm is militia. There was a 'europese Militie', conscripts 18 - 32 years old. These guys were filling out the regular regiments or formed companies that were attached to regular units. The Landstorm (Dutch LS Squad in stock) were conscripts, 32 - 55 years old. At first these men were only trained for maintaining peace and order, but after invasion they were used as fighting units, like the regulars although only in a defending role. There was native Militia, too. These guys were untrained even in march '42 and didn't do any fighting (except on Ambon, where they were crushed in no time). There was lot of Landstorm available on Java but not every unit saw action. A large part of them surrendered without firing a shot, but these I have not included. Squad strength was 15 men, armed with Mannlicher Rifles, no automatic weapons. 1st and 4th Battalion had 3 companies of infantry, 2nd and 3rd only 2 companies.

There was a home guard too. That is called 'Stadswacht' in urban and 'Landwacht' in rural areas. They were lots of them in Batavia, about 1.650 men and in Soerabaja (1.200 IIRC). But these were of almost no military value. Armed with Mannlicher Rifles, no automatic weapons, untrained. Only used for maintaining peace and order. I left them out, because they don't matter (at least in witp) ....

They were more than 80.000 KNIL troops on Java (including Militie, Kort Verband, Landstorm, Stadswacht, Landwacht, Korps Marechaussee and Hulpkorpsen Barisan, Pakoe Alam, Prajoda and Legioen Mangkoe Negoro)

[Andy Mac]

Interesting I will have a look it might be worth stripping the garrison Bns out of the Base forces and haveing 1 - 4 Landstorm Bn's seperate I will think on it
 
Java starts at about 40,000 troops but after 2 or 3 months of mobilisation a number of units will end up stronger but not up to 80,000 men (although after Blackforce, B Sqn or the Hussars and the  British AA Regts it probably gets closer.
 
Andy

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Interesting I will have a look it might be worth stripping the garrison Bns out of the Base forces and haveing 1 - 4 Landstorm Bn's seperate I will think on it

Java starts at about 40,000 troops but after 2 or 3 months of mobilisation a number of units will end up stronger but not up to 80,000 men (although after Blackforce, B Sqn or the Hussars and the  British AA Regts it probably gets closer.

Andy

I just got the numbers (february 1942), not 80.000 but 90,000.

regular officers: 1.015
other ranks: 27.468
reserve officers: 1.885
european militia: 7.926
short-term volunteers (native): 6.070
hulpkorpsen: 5.600

total 'combat ready' troops: 49.964

landstorm: 9.625
reservekorps: 3.606
native militia: 6.726
stadswacht: 6.652
landwacht: 14.870
VAUBEK: 1.722 (VAUBEK means volunteer car driver corps)

total auxiliary troops: 43.201

altogether: 93.165

[Andy Mac]

OK home now and looking at scen again
 
Of the 5 KNIL Regts 2 begin overstrength with equivalnet to 120 Squads which is c 4 Bn's each the rest are 3 Bn's 
 
The independent Tjilatjap Bn has an attached company of CL-1936's
Coastal CD Bn's at Soerbaja and Batavia and Tjilatjap have 2 attached Bns of Militia (or 1 strong one) each
 
There are 6 Base Forces on Java (2 Split into 7 smaller base forces and 4 big ones) - total the base forces have about another 4 Bn's of Militia between them.
 
So in general I don't think Java is wrong.
 
The Militia if anything is a tad to strong
 
 
 
 

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

OK home now and looking at scen again

Of the 5 KNIL Regts 2 begin overstrength with equivalnet to 120 Squads which is c 4 Bn's each the rest are 3 Bn's 

The independent Tjilatjap Bn has an attached company of CL-1936's
Coastal CD Bn's at Soerbaja and Batavia and Tjilatjap have 2 attached Bns of Militia (or 1 strong one) each

There are 6 Base Forces on Java (2 Split into 7 smaller base forces and 4 big ones) - total the base forces have about another 4 Bn's of Militia between them.

So in general I don't think Java is wrong.

The Militia if anything is a tad to strong

There were no tanks at Tjilatjap. Only Mobiele Eenheid had tanks. Overall strength is ok though. I would prefer more smaller units and ad-hoc formations, but that is what the editor is made for....

[Andy Mac]

Not a fan of having to many ants - if thats what you want as you say thats what the editor is for

[Dutch_slith]

I want them into a formation as large as it was in 1942. Most of the KNIL units were of small size, battalion and less. Most of the units I have created for my mod are battalion-sized formations. The cavalry and pioneers are of company size though.

With AE I would like to give the KNIL the opportunity to reform its regiments into brigades, but that will mean that all other small units will have to be disbanded to fill out the new formation (I've read somewhere that it is possible to disband LCUs in AE).

But if one wants/needs to provide larger formations, why not simply drop the KNIL Regiments and create these ...

West Groep Mobile Force (regulars)
Batavia-Tandjong Priok Detachment (CD/AA/Landstorm/a few regulars)

Groep Bandoeng Mobile Force (regulars)
attach Landstorm/AA to Base Forces Buitenzorg/Bandoeng

IIe Divisie Mobile Force (regulars)
Tjilatjap Detachment (CD/AA/Landstorm/a few regulars)

IIIe Divisie Mobile Group (regulars)
Veiligheidsbezetting Soerabaja (CD/AA/Landstorm/Detachment Madoera)
Korps Prajoda (Bali)

All forces from the divisions were divided into mobile and immobile forces. Having a few mobile/immobile units will be more historical than having enlarged regiments. Even more since the various cavalry squadrons and artillery battalions were never combined into a larger formation (like a regiment), they were simply attached to the mobile groups.

..........

I don't want to offend anyone. Dutch/KNIL forces are really unimportant in comparison to the other belligerents forces. Sources on the KNIL are all written in dutch. The Niehorster OOB is fairly accurate, but not accurate enough to be a template for witp or AE.

[Andy Mac]

I will enjoy seeing your mod - but for now I am staying with what we have as I don't really want to redo the AI and I believe we are pretty close.

I try to stay at Bn level for most forces unless I absoulutely have to going below Bn size causes issues.

Re disbanding units yes it is possible but will be difficult for the Dutch to do as you would need a base with 100,000 supply or the ability to get units to Sydney or Delhi - as Dutch units based on Java are more or less stuck there its hard to do

You do have the ability to combine units into larger units without disbanding them.

ANdy

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

I want them into a formation as large as it was in 1942. Most of the KNIL units were of small size, battalion and less. Most of the units I have created for my mod are battalion-sized formations. The cavalry and pioneers are of company size though.

With AE I would like to give the KNIL the opportunity to reform its regiments into brigades, but that will mean that all other small units will have to be disbanded to fill out the new formation (I've read somewhere that it is possible to disband LCUs in AE).

But if one wants/needs to provide larger formations, why not simply drop the KNIL Regiments and create these ...

West Groep Mobile Force (regulars)
Batavia-Tandjong Priok Detachment (CD/AA/Landstorm/a few regulars)

Groep Bandoeng Mobile Force (regulars)
attach Landstorm/AA to Base Forces Buitenzorg/Bandoeng

IIe Divisie Mobile Force (regulars)
Tjilatjap Detachment (CD/AA/Landstorm/a few regulars)

IIIe Divisie Mobile Group (regulars)
Veiligheidsbezetting Soerabaja (CD/AA/Landstorm/Detachment Madoera)
Korps Prajoda (Bali)

All forces from the divisions were divided into mobile and immobile forces. Having a few mobile/immobile units will be more historical than having enlarged regiments. Even more since the various cavalry squadrons and artillery battalions where never combined into a larger formation (like a regiment), they were simply attached to the mobile groups.

..........

I don't want to offend anyone. Dutch/KNIL forces are really unimportant in comparison to the other belligerents forces. Sources on the KNIL are all written in dutch. The Niehorster OOB is fairly accurate, but not accurate enough to be a template for witp or AE.

[JeffroK]

Harald,
 
I don't want to offend anyone. Dutch/KNIL forces are really unimportant in comparison to the other belligerents forces. Sources on the KNIL are all written in dutch. The Niehorster OOB is fairly accurate, but not accurate enough to be a template for witp
 
Dont worry, you & Jo provide a lot of info about a very poorly covered theatre.

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I will enjoy seeing your mod - but for now I am staying with what we have as I don't really want to redo the AI and I believe we are pretty close.

Well, that's good news!

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I try to stay at Bn level for most forces unless I absoulutely have to going below Bn size causes issues.

Re disbanding units yes it is possible but will be difficult for the Dutch to do as you would need a base with 100,000 supply or the ability to get units to Sydney or Delhi - as Dutch units based on Java are more or less stuck there its hard to do

You do have the ability to combine units into larger units without disbanding them.

ANdy

OK. My 'brigade-upgrade' doesn't make sense anymore. So I'll give them the opportunity to combine into a larger "Mobile Force" instead. [:)]

[Dutch_slith]

[:)]

[Andy Mac]

Brigade upgrade probably can work actually.
 
Option 1
You can set the TOE of each Regt to upgrade to the enhanced TOE and change to a Bde on date X.
 
If you also set all the units amalgamating into it to disband on the same day that the upgrade happens then the devices returned to the pool from the disbanded units can be used to fill out the new TOE
 
Option 2
Set all the forces you want to combine into the Bde to be pre broken down sub units of the Bde and include as a reinformcment a special sub unit called say HQ X Bde with 10 support squads arriving on X Date.
 
The sub units will not be able to combine into the parent until the final sub unit arrives at which point any remaining sub units can combine into the Bde.
 
Lots of ways of doing what I think you want.
 
I do something similar with 3rd NZ Div (which is second only to 17th Indian Div) as being the most complicated LCU on map.
 
Andy

[Dutch_slith]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Brigade upgrade probably can work actually.

Option 1
You can set the TOE of each Regt to upgrade to the enhanced TOE and change to a Bde on date X.

If you also set all the units amalgamating into it to disband on the same day that the upgrade happens then the devices returned to the pool from the disbanded units can be used to fill out the new TOE

Option 2
Set all the forces you want to combine into the Bde to be pre broken down sub units of the Bde and include as a reinformcment a special sub unit called say HQ X Bde with 10 support squads arriving on X Date.

The sub units will not be able to combine into the parent until the final sub unit arrives at which point any remaining sub units can combine into the Bde.

Lots of ways of doing what I think you want.

I do something similar with 3rd NZ Div (which is second only to 17th Indian Div) as being the most complicated LCU on map.

Andy

Thx Andy,

but I have still two questions.

If (option 1) the Regt is destroyed, the 'amalgating' units will disband nevertheless, won't they?
If (option 2) one 'sub unit' is destroyed, no combing will take place anymore, right?

I think - if I'll use a brigade-upgrade at all- I would prefer option 1, making the evacuation of small KNIL units obsolete ....

[Andy Mac]

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Brigade upgrade probably can work actually.

Option 1
You can set the TOE of each Regt to upgrade to the enhanced TOE and change to a Bde on date X.

If you also set all the units amalgamating into it to disband on the same day that the upgrade happens then the devices returned to the pool from the disbanded units can be used to fill out the new TOE

YES CORRECT THATS THE FLAW BUT AS MOST OF THE UNITS THAT UPGRADE WOULD BE STUCK ON JAVA ANYWAY ITS LIMITED RISK

Option 2
Set all the forces you want to combine into the Bde to be pre broken down sub units of the Bde and include as a reinformcment a special sub unit called say HQ X Bde with 10 support squads arriving on X Date.

The sub units will not be able to combine into the parent until the final sub unit arrives at which point any remaining sub units can combine into the Bde.

NO IF A SUB UNIT IS DESTROYED IT DOES NOT PREVENT CONSOLIDATION - AT PRESENT 11TH INDIAN DIV HAS 5 SUB UNITS 3 BDES, 1 ARTY REGT AND AN A/T BATTERY

IF 4 OF SUB UNITS ARE DESTROYED 5TH CAN STILL BECOME DIV - BUT YOU NEED DEVICES TO FILL IT OUT AND MOST DEVICES ARE RESTRICTED

DUTCH/ BRITISH/ AUS/ NZ ALL HAVE LIMITED DEVICES - A PLAYER CAN IN AE CHOOSE TO REBUILD 9TH OR 11TH INDIAN OR 8TH AUSTRALIAN DIV BUT AFTER THEY PLAY ONE CAMPAIGN I SUSPECT MOST WILL CHOOSE NOT TO AS YOU NEED ALLTHE REPLACEMENTS YOU CAN GET - SQUAD DEVICES ARE IN SHORT SUPPLY USING 50% OF ALL INDIAN ARMY AND 90% OF ALL BRITISH SQUADS YOU GET IN 41/42 TO REBUILD ONE DIV MAKING THE REST OF THE ARMY FRAGILE IS NOT A GOOD CHOICE BUT IT IS ONE A PLAYER CAN MAKE - BIGGER FORCE BUT FRAGILE OR SMALLER FORCE BUT WITH ADEQUATE REPLACEMENTS

Lots of ways of doing what I think you want.

I do something similar with 3rd NZ Div (which is second only to 17th Indian Div) as being the most complicated LCU on map.

Andy

Thx Andy,

but I have still two questions.

If (option 1) the Regt is destroyed, the 'amalgating' units will disband nevertheless, won't they?
If (option 2) one 'sub unit' is destroyed, no combing will take place anymore, right?

I think - if I'll use a brigade-upgrade at all- I would prefer option 1, making the evacuation of small KNIL units obsolete ....