The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

[GreyJoy]

Without saying too much (cause i'm reading John's AAR too), i think China is defendable, even in Scen 2, given an Allied player who really grasps the basics of land warfare in a stacking limit environement.
 
In this scenario, Changsha is probably a bad place to rely upon for your MLR. Its flanks are too exposed and in clear terrain. I understand the importance of the supplies produced there, but imho a better strategy is to let Japan invest it, leaving behind a very strong garrison (which will be destroyed and then rebuilt at Chungking) and focusing on stabilishing a STRONG perimeter in the area around Chikkiang, where the W/R terrain will give the chinese a huge defensive bonus.
The key for a good defence of China is, imho, to swallow the fact that to defend in the long run you need to abbandon the whole area of Changsha-Nanning and start prepping deep and strong defences in the back.
 
In my game against QBall, despite my intial successes in the northern plains, Brad managed to estabilish a strong defensive perimeter which took me one year to break...and, after all my efforts, i was never able anyway to break towards Kunming or to conquer Chungking...With stacking limits everything changes
 
My opinion is that you can still stop him cold if you take the right decisions right now Dan

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

May 1 or April 15?

From Blackhorse:
"Actually, the initial notes on the monsoon season was off. Its confirmed by Andy not being Jan-April, but from 15th of May to the 15th of Oct.

Monsoon affects base supply in Burma region. It does not affect weather in the game.

The main bases affected are the north Burmese ones north of Mandalay and the Assam bases east of Terapo plus Akyab and Chittagong. [And all of Thailand]

The way the new restriction works is that the amount of supply a base can receive per day is X x (Port+AF+Fort) so a base that is a trail base with no main road or rail connection may have a value of 50 say it starts as port 0, af 0, fort 3 then that means the base can receive 50 x 3 or 150 tonnes of supply per day over the jungle trails.

During the monsoon season all bases are reduced to 50% of normal capacity therefore the base will only receive 75 tons per day by land.

Thus the little un-built up bases cannot sustain huge forces

"

That's the thread. Thanks.

Key seems to be to build, build, build the northern bases.

I found that supplies will flow from Kaylemyo into the Irrawaddy Valley .. smashing the rail network at and getting to Toungoo will lead to a IJA "Stalingrad" ... It is a matter of committment .. it takes Aussie and US forces ... esepcally US armor to surprise the IJ and cut through them like butter .. Once forces are trapped North the IJ will be forced to commmitt reserves in vain ...Game Over ... [8D] US armor in open terrain is absolutely deadly esepcally with stacking limits because although the AV might be 1:1 for example, the firepower is so absolutely overwhelming that after the combat phase shattered IJA forces are left in the hex .. also the armor can move so quickly forces can be cut off rather qucikly trapping the IJ forces north of Taung Gvi ..

[Canoerebel]

I've been working on my secondary/interior MLR for quite some time with lots more troops en route from the north via Chungking.  I'm probably going to have problems due to the number of troops cut off, so my new MLR won't be as strong as it should be, but John won't be able to blitzkrieg to Chungking or the next line of bases out.  That he doesn't have any armor in China doesn't help at all.  Why, or why, does he have so many armor units three hexes from Alice Springs?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been working on my secondary/interior MLR for quite some time with lots more troops en route from the north via Chungking.  I'm probably going to have problems due to the number of troops cut off, so my new MLR won't be as strong as it should be, but John won't be able to blitzkrieg to Chungking or the next line of bases out.  That he doesn't have any armor in China doesn't help at all.  Why, or why, does he have so many armor units three hexes from Alice Springs?

The choice where to allocate your armoured units at the beginning of the game is critical for the IJ player.
Imho they need to be used in China because it is there where they can really make the difference. Anywhere else on the map is not even close to the effect they can do in China.

BTW, if some of your armies are cut off, remember to use them to threaten (en masse) the main supply routes. With stacking limits Japan needs to always attack with maximimu supplies available, so main routes are vital for any japanese advance. I do believe that it's almost impossible to advance without a clean secondary road (at minimum) at your back. And the more you threaten his lines, the more units he will have to leave behind dealing with your cut off armies... the less units will be able to concentrate in the front lines for an advance.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been working on my secondary/interior MLR for quite some time with lots more troops en route from the north via Chungking.  I'm probably going to have problems due to the number of troops cut off, so my new MLR won't be as strong as it should be, but John won't be able to blitzkrieg to Chungking or the next line of bases out.  That he doesn't have any armor in China doesn't help at all.  Why, or why, does he have so many armor units three hexes from Alice Springs?

The choice where to allocate your armoured units at the beginning of the game is critical for the IJ player.
Imho they need to be used in China because it is there where they can really make the difference. Anywhere else on the map is not even close to the effect they can do in China.

BTW, if some of your armies are cut off, remember to use them to threaten (en masse) the main supply routes. With stacking limits Japan needs to always attack with maximimu supplies available, so main routes are vital for any japanese advance. I do believe that it's almost impossible to advance without a clean secondary road (at minimum) at your back. And the more you threaten his lines, the more units he will have to leave behind dealing with your cut off armies... the less units will be able to concentrate in the front lines for an advance.

That is one of the more "intersting" features of this game. A single unit consisting of a disabled squad has the same effect on supply routes as a full TO&E division. Does the enemy occupy the hex? If yes .. supplies stop here ... Thus those broken Chineese units influence supply routes and what is worse is having to [as GreyJoy suggests] divert forces to deal with these forces. Doing the Guderian is tough in WitP AE because of the fact that broken units exert so much influence on supply lines.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been working on my secondary/interior MLR for quite some time with lots more troops en route from the north via Chungking.  I'm probably going to have problems due to the number of troops cut off, so my new MLR won't be as strong as it should be, but John won't be able to blitzkrieg to Chungking or the next line of bases out.  That he doesn't have any armor in China doesn't help at all.  Why, or why, does he have so many armor units three hexes from Alice Springs?

The choice where to allocate your armoured units at the beginning of the game is critical for the IJ player.
Imho they need to be used in China because it is there where they can really make the difference. Anywhere else on the map is not even close to the effect they can do in China.

BTW, if some of your armies are cut off, remember to use them to threaten (en masse) the main supply routes. With stacking limits Japan needs to always attack with maximimu supplies available, so main routes are vital for any japanese advance. I do believe that it's almost impossible to advance without a clean secondary road (at minimum) at your back. And the more you threaten his lines, the more units he will have to leave behind dealing with your cut off armies... the less units will be able to concentrate in the front lines for an advance.

That is one of the more "intersting" features of this game. A single unit consisting of a disabled squad has the same effect on supply routes as a full TO&E division. Does the enemy occupy the hex? If yes .. supplies stop here ... Thus those broken Chineese units influence supply routes and what is worse is having to [as GreyJoy suggests] divert forces to deal with these forces. Doing the Guderian is tough in WitP AE because of the fact that broken units exert so much influence on supply lines.

I agree. However what i did in China was to mass the best units in 3-4 stack armies in the front, while keeping in the back a lot of small RGC divisions/brigades. These, like the hungarians or the italians in WITE, will be used to guard the flanks and keep free the corridor where supplies flow to the front lines. Sometimes you just don't have enough of these small units so you need to keep a strategic reserve (i had 2 divisions and an army HQ) in the back of your advance in order to push back those chinese armies that were too strong to be dealt with secondary LCUs and that were threatening the supply path.
However, to do all this, it takes lot of time, lots of efforts, lots of supplies and, above all, some decent initial strategic victories

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Without saying too much (cause i'm reading John's AAR too), i think China is defendable, even in Scen 2, given an Allied player who really grasps the basics of land warfare in a stacking limit environement.

Well, clearly that is not me.[8D]

In this scenario, Changsha is probably a bad place to rely upon for your MLR. Its flanks are too exposed and in clear terrain. I understand the importance of the supplies produced there, but imho a better strategy is to let Japan invest it, leaving behind a very strong garrison (which will be destroyed and then rebuilt at Chungking) and focusing on stabilishing a STRONG perimeter in the area around Chikkiang, where the W/R terrain will give the chinese a huge defensive bonus.
The key for a good defence of China is, imho, to swallow the fact that to defend in the long run you need to abbandon the whole area of Changsha-Nanning and start prepping deep and strong defences in the back.

That's a good idea; don't try to defend Changsha's flanks, but max-out the garrison and leave it. Even with reduced, or even no supplies, it's going to be a bear to take out, and will require a siege. The best IJA response is probably to surround it and bypass for later, but that's not easy either.

My mistake was not abandoning the central plains quick enough; Allies should RUN from that area at the opening gun.

[Cribtop]

I have agreed with that statement since early WiTP, Q. Even more now in AE.

CR, losing Changsha is tough, unexpected and dislocating. However, pay attention to GJ's comments about how to handle battle in a stacking limits environment. Your biggest issue is getting the units at the current MLR back to the new MLR. Decide now who lives, who dies, and how they will meet their ends. Using kamikaze rearguards and LoC cutters is a good plan.

This makes this game a bit more interesting again. However, recall that even in games where Japan has conquered or neutered China, it has helped provide more red troops for the front but so far hasn't swung the outcome in any match I'm aware of. Consider a doomsday plan to "attack to the rear" into Burma to open an LoC to your projected Burma offensive as well.

[ny59giants]

In my current game, the Chinese don't retreat form the non-base hex until the odds get equal to or greater than the fort level of that LCU. Most of my MLR troops have been there for months and now have level 3 to 4 forts for the Corps in terrain that offers x2 or x3 modifiers. They ain't going anywhere now!![:)]

You will need to delay while others are moved into good terrain and given a chance to get a level or two of forts built.

[Canoerebel]

I'll tweak how I fight in China next time, as all of us do after gaining experience from our most recent game, but I will begin by making Changsha an anchor on my initial MLR.  Changsha is an excellent fortress flanked by lots of good terrain plus the impassable lake.  Don't give that up too early!  Also, a strong defense of Changsha and the forested hexes to the front force Japan to choose between widely separated vectors:  attack around the Hengyan/Siangtan area, the Chengte area, and/or the Sian sector.  But the IJ player won't be able to shift toops efficiently between the main southern (Hengyang) sector and the more northern sectors.
 
Changsha can and should be defended until defending becomes counterproductive.  IMO, anyhow.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'll tweak how I fight in China next time, as all of us do after gaining experience from our most recent game, but I will begin by making Changsha an anchor on my initial MLR.  Changsha is an excellent fortress flanked by lots of good terrain plus the impassable lake.  Don't give that up too early!  Also, a strong defense of Changsha and the forested hexes to the front force Japan to choose between widely separated vectors:  attack around the Hengyan/Siangtan area, the Chengte area, and/or the Sian sector.  But the IJ player won't be able to shift toops efficiently between the main southern (Hengyang) sector and the more northern sectors.

Changsha can and should be defended until defending becomes counterproductive.  IMO, anyhow.

I agree with your thougths CR. Mainly because China is not fought in a vaccum, but as a part of a much larger picture. The defense postion you describe takes time and resources for the IJ to manage .. both of which are a tight commodity for the IJ. If teh IJ decide to committ to China and neglect the rest of their world .. even if the line is penetrated as it has in your game now as an example a lot of time has been frittered away into 3 forays with one success late in the expansion phase. Like Nappy arriving at Moscow too late ... I sense John will reach his cresendo too late to form a defensive line and the implosion is sure to happpen ... To achieve some level of success in China -- 3 very very very key hexes in Burma have been neglecled ... I sense the future banter of "bad die rolls, the game is borked, there is no way to hold Burma" ... [8D]

[Canoerebel]

5/8/42
 
China:  Chinese units left stranded are moving in various directions.  At the moment, John's spearhead still doesn't have any road access for supply.  None.  That won't last long, but it has forced him to divert three or four divisions to take on the two Chinese corps that's been parked in good terrain.  Four IJ divisions will probably be enough to take the hex and open a supply line, but there's a chance the Chinese can hold awhile.  My Kweilin area army is still in good shape with contiguous lines and a good line of retreat.  But the Hengyang army is hung out with nowhere to go except a forward guerilla warfare campaign.

Burma:  Two Indian brigades are in the one key jungle hex on the border of the clear terrain.  One of these is a very poor unit.  The other is pretty good.  But the combination should be tough to dislodge.  Meanwhile, an elite UK brigade is 16 of the 48 miles towards occupying a second key border hex.  Other good units are further back, but coming.  I think the Allies win the race.  The Allies have 2,200 PP saved up to buy restricted Indian divisions to feed into this campaign.  I see no reason why Burma shouldn't be a major front in this game.

Cocos Island:  On the chance that the Japanese carriers will show themselves in SoPac (a hunch of mine), the Cocos invasion troops are in the process of loading or reporting to ports of embarkation.  I'm not "pulling the trigger yet," but rather trying to get in advantageous position to do so if circumstances warrant.  A marine raider battalion is loading aboard transports at Capetown (as is a USN Port Service unit).  7th Aussie Div. has divided into three RCT that will begin loading at Bombay tomorrow, as will a strong Aussie combat engineer unit.  In Australia, a stiff American combat engineer unit, an American tank unit, a big Dutch base force, and an Aussie HQ unit are reporting to Esperance.  All troops are prepped at or near 100%.  Cocos doesn't have the capacity to hold a force this size, but I've give alot of thought how to maximize the effort within the cap limit.  More about that later.

Oz:  The IJ stack is one hex north of Geraldton.  My hunch is this isn't the real thing, but I'm prepared if it is.

Pacific:  A sizeable enemy TF approaching Luganville from the northwest.  This looks like the real deal.  I'd like to hold this base, but I'd rather not take on enemy carriers.  John appears to be doing alot of work to attend to the Santa Cruz and other nearby island groups right now.  That plus recent SigInt that Kaga was bound for Truk plus patrol sightings out of Manado reporting two IJN carrier TFs northbound through the Celebes bound for Babeldoab lead me to believe he's shifted some of his carriers into the Pacific.  I want more confirmation before moving on Cocos, but there you have the sum and substance of things at the moment.

[witpqs]

A technical point for you... A hex does not have to be clear of enemy to pass supply. You only need the relevant hex sides in friendly hands.

[Canoerebel]

Operation Carya Tomentosa (Invasion of Cocos Island)
 
D-Day:  Bombardment by two American BBs; APDs to land Marine raider battalion that will report on enemy strength.  If the enemy looks too strong, the invasion force to retire.  CAP provided by five American carriers and two RN carriers (with some strike aircraft squadrons replaced by Marine F4F fighters).
 
D+1:  If enemy strength acceptable, main invasion force to come ashore.  I will tailor strength to match enemy strength, but the strongest force will consist of two Aussie brigades, one Aussie combat engineer, one American combat engineer, one American tank, and one Australian HQ.
 
Thereafter:  If the invasion succeeds, a big Dutch engineer unit will come ashore; the Allies will withdraw one Aussie brigade and possibly the tank unit and HQ unit, leaving at least one Assie brigade, two combat engineer units, and the big Dutch base force.
 
Expected Reaction:  Cocos exposes the entire southern DEI to invasion - a fact that is more perception than reality at this early state of the game.  John fought hard for Cocos, though, so the belief is that he'll react strongly, probably including committing his carriers.  Mine would retire and pursue and opportunity to then move elsewhere - most likely supporting an invasion of either Milne Bay or the Santa Cruz Island.
 
Expected Garrison:  John withdrew 4th Division, the conquerors of Cocos Island.  SigInt has revealed the presence of a small IJ base force.  I would expect significantly more - perhaps on the order of 200 AV, which is my maximum "tolerance level" for the invasion to proceed.  If the raiders encounter more than 200 AV the Allies will likely scrub the main invasion.
 

[Canoerebel]

5/9/42
 
China:  Four IJA deliberate attacks come off at 1:2 and fail.  The Chinese still control the key hexsides that block supply from reaching the massed IJ army centered at Changsha.  The Japanese will break through fairly soon, but the Chinese aren't rolling over.
 
Burma:  John is discovering the threat in the Upper Burma front.  That suits me at this point.  Imphal will be a level five airfield in a week or two.
 
India:  The Cocos invasion force will begin loading at Bombay in two days.
 
Australia:  The IJ "army" is still a hex north of Geraldton.  Three Allied units to participate in the Cocos invasion (if the trigger is pulled) will report to Esperance to embark on ships.
 
SoPac:  Big IJN bombardment of Luganville includes four BBs (Ise, etc.).  So I know where seven BBs are at present (counting the three in NoPac).  I need evidence that a fair number of IJN carriers are somewhere in the Pacific to pull the Cocos trigger.
 
Pacific:  Other than SoPac, things are quiet.

[ny59giants]

Burma:  John is discovering the threat in the Upper Burma front.  That suits me at this point.  Imphal will be a level five airfield in a week or two.

Move a mobile Command HQ up to Imphal along with a Corp HQ and start to prep both for a base that you have taken an educated guess you will attack in northern Burma in the relatively near future. It might be Myitkyina, Katha, or Schwebo, IMO.

[Crackaces]

Burma: John is discovering the threat in the Upper Burma front. That suits me at this point. Imphal will be a level five airfield in a week or two.

Hmmmm this can work very much in your favor if he over commits to the North and fails to secure the route from Kayelmyo into the Irrawaddy valley .. one huge Stalingrad North of Toungoo [:D] By secure it takes a lot of fighters to prevent Allied 2E bombing from hitting the troops in the open and defend against 4E's smacking airfields .. along with the ground troops to prevent the wide open cooridor over the Irrawaddy river ... also note the key railroad hexes that if taken the whole IJ railnet goes to **** in a hand basket ...

[obvert]

Are we sure he no longer has the capability to land at Cox's/Chittagong and bypass forward Allied positions? We are talking about a player who apparently landed in India in 44! [;)]

[Canoerebel]

5/10/42
 
China:  A single Chinese corps across the river from Chengte holds against an IJ counterattack.  The Japanese still haven't been able to punch a whole that will allow supply to flow freely to its "interior" units.
 
Burma:  The lead UK brigade will reach it's jungle hex in about five days.  I act on NYGiants' advice by prepping Indian Command HQ and IV Corps to prep for Mandalay.  I'll move them forward from Calcutta and Chittagong, respectively, to Imphal.
 
India:  7th Aussie Div. begins combat loading on amphibious ships at Bombay.  The RN carriers, Hornet, and combat TFs to stage forward to Colombo to refuel.  I wouldn't mind John noticing the concetration at Ceylon.  The Allies have alot of fighters at Colombo, so an enemy raid would encounter tough LBA.
 
Australia:  Elements of 1st Raiding Regiment take the two dot hexes in the desert east of Geraldton (north of Kalgoorlie).  I'm nearly positive this is a ruse, but I wish it weren't.  I wish John was coming for the Perth theater, because the Allie are there in unusual strength (unusual for me this early in a game).  As for the paratroops in the dot hexes, what exactly are they going to accomplish?  Meanwhile, the "eastern arm" of the Cocos invasion forces are departing Melbourne, including carriers and combat ships.  On yet another note, the once "mortally damaged" CA New Orleans is repairing nicely at Melbourne and will be ready for action in a month.  Back from the grave.
 
SoPac:  Tons of enemy activity in the northern Coral Sea.  This possibly indicates a major move into the area. If so, I hope it will include enemy carriers.  9th Marine Regiment will reach Melbourne in less than a week.
 
Pacific: 7th Marines at Los Angeles is prepping for Tarawa and embarking for the journey to Pearl Harbor.  Warspite will accompany this TF.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: obvert
Are we sure he no longer has the capability to land at Cox's/Chittagong and bypass forward Allied positions? We are talking about a player who apparently landed in India in 44! [;)]

Akyab (150 AV) and Cox's Bazaar (75 AV) are definitely vulnerable. Chittagang (650 AV isn't). Calcutta and Viz are also strongly defended. John can invade Akyab, but coming any further would only put his assets in harm's way. He would have zero chance in NE India now.