Shattered Vow

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Yes, but historically, the Allies had won air supiority in most all points of contact by late 1942. There must have been a reason for this. I just don't see it happening in the game until perhaps mid 1943 but we reallly have to see how it plays out as I am only at June 1 in my game.

Right now what I am seeing is that a skilled Japanese player can mass air assets and dominate any theater that he wants. It is not horrible and certainly I like it better than WITP but this has a marked effect on the Japanese ability to advance and continue advancing. Its just does not seem quite right.

I can tell you that nothing has changed as of mid-'43 in my game. It's June and the Japanese are still getting the best of the Allies. As noted above, the Allies have lost 300 more aircraft a-2-a than have the Japanese.

What I don't know is whether it's due to some flaw in the game or a flaw in my ability to play the game (or a combination of both plus Miller's aptitude).

I didn't have any trouble with the air war in WitP - it was pretty intuitive. But intuition isn't enough in AE. You've got to have some mojo that I don't have.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

There is no doubt that for many, like Canoerebel, the Allies are LOSING more aircraft than historical. Why? Probably to Panther's point, the Allies in AE are generally more aggressive than RL. It could be that advanced types aren't rated high enough to improve their survivability. This deserves further study.

It should be noted that almost every AE or WITP game I have seen is bloodier than RL, in all aspects. More combat, more naval fights, more air fights, everything.

Lots of good comments.

My experiences are only AI-related, and it gets huge windfalls in plane quantity out of the gate. Reasonable, but as an Allied player I've always felt as if I was trying to hold back the sea, especially in Burma. I went south in early 1943, taking Cox's B and Akyab, then, with an all-armor spearhead, charging down to Prome while simultaneously taking the dot hex at Ramree Island and building it furiously as a supply beachhead. I ran infantry and base support down to Prome and finally took Rangoon in September. I'm now hooking back northeast to a cut-off Mandalay and assorted small bases to clean up.

All during this effort the AI mounted massive, multi-base raids--120-150 fighters and 60-80 bomber raids, day after day. They came from 3-4 large bases like Moulmein and Pegu, and were usually perfectly coordinated. I threw everything I could at them, but, as Nemo says, you can't. I finally moved all the AA in I could (it's seldom mentioned here, but it's a killer in AE), and pulled my planes back. Having 9-12 Hurricanes rise to meet 150 incoming raiders was getting me nowhere.

What happened was . . . not much. LBA is not the King of All Warfare it was in WITP. They take out supplies, hole runways, and cause some LCU casualties and disruption, but they don't stop determined ground advances. Only other ground forces do that.

As for the P-38, I too have been disappointed in its performance as well as numbers. It was a good buy in mid-1942, and I moved what I had to PM. Swept Rabaul, escorted raids on Lae, etc., but it was fragile and in need of a lot of maintenance. For the space and maintenance resources consumed I think the late P-40 models are about as good.

What has been a nice surprise is how great the P-47 is when they show up. A flying tank, easy to keep flying, a great dogfighter as well as gournd attack unit. You get a lot in the last third of 1943 and they finally turned the tide in Burma. Like a knife through butter. Like Canoerebel I have one or two P-38 units hanging around, but they've been bypassed. I think they were better in RL than the game lets them be, but that's the way it goes.

Hellcats are pretty sweet too.[:)]

[khyberbill]

My P-40s get beaten as do Corsairs, Wildcats, and Kittyhawks.

I am surprised your Corsairs are getting beaten. I have one squad with 47 kills and 1 loss. These are against Tojos and Tonys. I fly them at 30k for sweeps and cap and at 1-2k above bombers if escorting. I sweep a day or two before bombing begins in earnest. I have been disappointed in the performance of the P38 at any altitude. Hellcats are holding their own and I get P47s next turn and I suspect they will do as well as the Corsairs.

[Canoerebel]

Bullwinkle, interesting comments and I'll cross my fingers about P-47s (three squadrons are on the way to Cape Town and then on to Oz) and Hellcats (Essex, Saratoga, and Wasp now have about 100 of those critters).
 
Regarding your obersvation that losing control of the air over Burma proved to be no big deal as the Japanese aircraft didn't do much, the situation is very different in the Pacific.  While aircraft may not be everything in a land war like Burma, they are still death to ships in the sea. 
 
So, if you move your observations about Burma to some place like the DEI, and if the results are the same, it plays havoc with the Allies.   That's my situation - I can't send ships forward because the Japanese still have control of the air.  I have a level three base at Babar, level four (nearly five) at Saumlaki, one at Taberfane, two at Aru Island, and one at Kai-eilenden.  Even with the ability to base that many fighters in fairly close proximity I'm getting whipped.  Eventually, all of these bases can be built to level eight (except one, which can only reach seven).  So eventually the Allies will win this air battle, but it's going to take a long time. 

[khyberbill]

I agree. My game is only at June 1 1942 but the biggest problem that I see is that a good Japanese player will mass his airforce on attack and overwhelm even the most concentrated Allies defence. I don't see myself getting the ability to counter this until early 1943 when I can produce planes on a parity with him.

This is what I did and it is the only thing you can do. Now and then you can ambush an over eager player and count some coup! What I finally did was start night bombing airfields with B17/24/25/26. This served three purposes, exp up, killed a few planes each turn on the ground and forced my opponent to put some fighters on night CAP which isn't good for them this early in the war. To date, my Corsairs have been used exclusively over Darwin. Before they arrived I was taking a real beating there in the air. Now I have control of the air and have 50 units with an AV of about 3500 trapped there.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

So, if you move your observations about Burma to some place like the DEI, and if the results are the same, it plays havoc with the Allies.   That's my situation - I can't send ships forward because the Japanese still have control of the air.  I have a level three base at Babar, level four (nearly five) at Saumlaki, one at Taberfane, two at Aru Island, and one at Kai-eilenden.  Even with the ability to base that many fighters in fairly close proximity I'm getting whipped.  Eventually, all of these bases can be built to level eight (except one, which can only reach seven).  So eventually the Allies will win this air battle, but it's going to take a long time. 

No, I read you on island-hopping. I have great respect and also distain for the Betty. In my Nov. 1943 game the Japanese have lost 3352 of them (2084 a-to-a, 678 flak, 23 ground, and 567 Ops.) It's the number-1 lost aircraft in the game, yet it keeps coming and coming. I feel like Mickey in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice."

I sound like a broken record (you're old enough to know what that means, right?[:)]) but things will keep getting better, especialy CVE/CVL-wise. Also, I've had pretty good success with hitting unloading cargo ships at 100 feet, especially with that (can never recall numbers) B-24/-25 variant with the quad-50s in the nose. It's its own flak suppressor (you get a combat report on that) when skip bombing, and the bullets do some pretty good damage to xAKs in their own right.

[Canoerebel]

6/8/43 to 6/11/43
 
NoPac:  This area will become a backwater.  The Allies have a ton of fuel and supplies at Adak, and a ton of fuel at Kodiak, but I don't know if it'll ever be put to good use.  The only thing that should happen in this area is the rebuilding of the units that had cadres pulled out of Paramushiro.

SoPac:  Tabiteau should reach level one port/airfield in about a week.  Tarawa looks ripe for the plucking, but Miller is the kind of player that might sneak the Mini-KB there to rough up any invasion force.  For that reason, I probably won't proceed without my full carrier compliment.  Speaking of which, CVEs are coming in hot and heavy now.  The Allies still only have three fleet carriers (four if you count Victorious), but the impact of 13 or so CVEs is pretty dramatic - that's about 250 aircraft.  I've moved the bulk of the carriers from Auckland to Noumea.  They'll park there while I decide which way they'll go.  If Miller commits a sizeable force to the Milne Bay area they go that way; if not, I may use them to support an invasion of Tarawa.

SWPac:  I'm not reconning Boela, Babo, Sorong, and Manikawari as I don't want to tip my hand, but I think Babo and Sorong are vacant and Boela and Manikaware fairly lightly held.  I have Marine 'chute battalions at Aru Island prepped for both Boela and Sorong.  I have transports loaded with a full contingent of troops for Babo - but I would only move if I got a warm, fuzzy feeling that the coast was clear for a few days (IE, the Mini-KB clears the area temporarily, which is possible under a couple of scenarios).  Kaimana on the New Guinea coast is a level one port/airfield and will continue to build.  This base is just a few hexes south of Babo, so it will play an important role when the time comes to move this way.  I'm sure Miller realizes I may be looking this way, but I think he's more concerned about the big bases closer to the heart of the DEI - Ambon, Kendari, Lautem, Koepang, and the like.

Burma:  Prome is a level four airield already and two small base forces will arrive within the week.

China:  I've evacuated Nanning as I need the troops to reinforce Liuchow (and possibly Kweilin).  Miller has tried probing attacks at Changteh and Liuchow, but neither went well for the Japanese.

Strategic Situation:  Japanese control of the air is making progress in the eastern DEI painfully slow.  In sixty days the Allies will have a full compliment of carriers and should be able to assert carrier and air parity in the eastern DEI.  At that point the war heats up quickly and there could be lots of action here.  I am very concerned about Japanese subs.  They continue to wreak havoc wherever they show up (one just claimed an Aussie DD near Darwin, yet another destroyer on ASW duty that fell victim to its prey) and the DEI waters are awfully confined.

[Panther Bait]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yes, but historically, the Allies had won air supiority in most all points of contact by late 1942. There must have been a reason for this. I just don't see it happening in the game until perhaps mid 1943 but we reallly have to see how it plays out as I am only at June 1 in my game.

Right now what I am seeing is that a skilled Japanese player can mass air assets and dominate any theater that he wants. It is not horrible and certainly I like it better than WITP but this has a marked effect on the Japanese ability to advance and continue advancing. Its just does not seem quite right.

I agree in general with you, although I am not sure that the Japanese can dominate any theater. I think they can dominate areas with lots of interlocking bases, that are close to areas of supply, and that don't require a lot of upfront construction. So places like the DEI or Burma or China they can dominate. It also takes more than just the IJN to dominate these areas. The IJA has to assist.

Areas like the Solomons/NG are a little trickier since the supply lines are starting to stretch out and pre-existing bases are a lot more spread out. Sure there are lots of dot bases to build up, but the Japanese are less able to build insta-bases like the Allies do (which is completely realistic).

I think one of the reasons that the Allies could establish air superiority in late 42-43 is that most of the areas being contested were not areas that the Japanese (especially the IJA) were all that concerned with keeping, at least not until it was too late. For example, the Japanese air resources committed to keeping the Solomons were not that extreme, particularly compared to what the average player is willing to commit if they feel it is important. This goes to the whole issue of IJA/IJN cooperation in real life versus that cooperation in the typical game. Of course this applies somewhat to the Allies as well (particularly with coordinating pressure in Burma/SEAC with pressure in the Pacific to stretch Japanese resources), but I think it overall benefits the Japanese more.

Anyway, I'll try to limit any more discussion here so as to not hijack Canoerebel's excellent AAR any further. It is one of my daily must read's along with the paired Q-Ball/Cuttlefish AARs, although I am still catching up on the back issues.

Mike

[ny59giants]

Your game started just after AE came out. You have had to deal with a lot of problems that have been addressed in patches and hotfix (but possibily not all). The issue of pilot training is a major one. I think my first patch of recruits trained up in Japan will take about 2 months to complete (70 experience in only one area). They will go to into the Reserve and replace carrier daitais first.
 
A truer test of this game will be when you play the second time and the learning curve is more forgiving. You have done us all a big favor by bringing up issues from this game and getting the developers to look at and make changes. By AE's one year anniverary, it should be a relatively stable game, IMO.

[vettim89]

Dan,

Well its not very fun to just engage the Japanese for a year in a war of attrition in an area like the Solomons. In RL that campaign began in Aug 1942 and continued all the way through the 1943 and even into 1944. Point being that the Allies advanced about 1500 nm in about 15 months. Now that doesn't seem like much fun does it? So, I guess as the Allies you can follow the RL model where you wait to achieve critical mass in late 1943 or you accept abnormally high losses. I hope eventually the pendulum will swing and the Japanese will eventually exhaust their pools and have to start throwing low EXP pilots at you

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've detailed the major woes I've encountered thus far - strategic bombing in China, artillery death stars, and nucelar subs - but there's another concern that worries me even more going forward. 

Right now the Allies are in fairly decent position - June '43, Miller and I are locked in a fierce wrestling match in the DEI, and the Japanese are ahead 32,000 to 20,000.  But it's the air war that's really making it difficult for the Allies to advance.

The Japanese have lost 1200 more aircraft to date, but in the a-2-a category they've lost 300 less.  This is a telling statistic.  It shows that Allied fighters are getting beaten in nearly every engagement with Japanese fighters - whether the Allied fighters are flying escort, sweep, or flying CAP.

I am having a heck of a time in the DEI because my fighters get trashed.  I ran out of P-38 replacements, so I had to swap them out with P-40Ks.  My P-40s get beaten as do Corsairs, Wildcats, and Kittyhawks. 

By mid-43 I would have expected the Allies to be winning most a-2-a battles and Japanese losses to be greviously high.  That isn't the case in my game as best I can tell.  Miller has mentioned a few things in different posts and emails suggesting that he too is struggling to mount an adequate air defense, but I can't tell that from my position.

Until the Allies get control of the air I cannot safely move forward in concentrated numbers.  Instead of sending forward a big invasion fleet, right now I can only send out expendable little detachments and wait for airfields to get big enough to base massive numbers of fighters.  Base building takes time, so the advances will be slow.

Why are the Allies not performing at historic levels?  I'm not positive - it could very well be something purely to do with player performance:  how Miller trains his pilots compared to how I do so.  But Allied pilots seem to have low experience and not enough aircraft in the pools to replace losses.  By mid-43 I doubt the Allies were down to just one P-38 squadron in the entire PTO, but that's my situation.

I'm working on the problem, but the going is slow!    

Can Japanese afford any offensive air operation at this stage? Or are they reduced to defending their own airfields and attempting to strike at invasion fleets and forward bases? If the latter, they your performance is not far behind RL, if at all. In mid-1943 RL Allied advance was slow and limited to the areas where Japanese ability to put aircraft in the air was severely restricted by stretched communications and poor forward bases. You're invading areas where Japanese don't suffer from such problems nearly as much, so a tougher air war is to be expected. As about higher A2A losses for Allies, if Japanese air forces generally are on the defensive, they will naturally benefit from improved A2A kill ratio against bomber formations and their escorts; lots of damaged planes will be able to land, instead of crashing on their return trips, as well.

[Canoerebel]

6/12/43 to 6/17/43
 
Gents:  Many more good observations.  It had never occurred to me to draw comparisons to the Allied position in this game (concentrating on DEI) to the real war (concentrated in the Solomons in mid-'43).  Yes, the DEI would be much more heavily defended than were the Solomons, so indeed the going should be even slower than it was in the Solomons.  When I look at it from that perspective it makes sense for the game to be where it's at right now.

NYGiants:  Your comments were very encouraging and much appreciated.

CenPac:  Talk about a goof up!  I had transferred all my CVE TFs from NoPac (Adak Island) to SoPac (Auckland) with a scheduled stopover at Christmas Island to refuel.  After a few days I realized one of my CVE TFs was very tardy.  I tracked it down short of Christmas Island totally out of fuel (yes, I had checked to see that it had enough fuel before departing - or at least I think I did.  [:(]).  Wow, these ships had very high SYS damage!  I diverted them to Palmyra, which was only four hexes away.  They are refueling now and I'll probably send them to Pearl to recover the SYS damage.

SoPac:  I'm sending out four merchant ships to act as pickets on the far side of Tarawa.  The invasion TFs are ready to set sail, but won't approach the island until the pickets are in place and the coast looks clear.

SWPac:  I might find out if I can outguess Miller.  You will recall that I had the Royal Sovereign TF make its presence known around Milne Bay shortly after Miller empoyed a CA force in the region.  I figured by upping the ante I might entice Miller to send bigger game this way.  Patrol aircraft just reported a PB force of some size rounding Milne and heading for PM.  Now, Miller knows that PBs aren't going to stand a chance against Royal Sovereign, so I think he's offering them as bait in hopes of springing an ambush, either with BBs of his own or even his Mini-KB.  The Allied carriers (Wasp, Essex, Saratoga, Victorious, and three CVEs) are parked at Noumea, so I'm sending them NW about mid-way to Milne Bay.  They should be in a position to strike from there if things look "ripe."

Subwars:  I continue to notice that ASW TFs set to patrol in a port hex don't do anything against subs in that hex.  So I set them to patrol a hex outside the port and then they will react back into the port.  Also, my combat TFs remain much more adept at ASW than do ASW TFs.  Go figure.

Burma:  Zzz as the Allied build-up near Rangoon continues.

China:  Not sure what's ultimately going to happen on my MLR - Liuchow, Kweilin, Changsha, Changteh.  Miller poked a hole in it at Hengyang, but hasn't moved against the two bases behind Changsha yet.  They are both garrisoned, but not all that strongly.

[Grollub]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

CenPac:  Talk about a goof up!  I had transferred all my CVE TFs from NoPac (Adak Island) to SoPac (Auckland) with a scheduled stopover at Christmas Island to refuel.  After a few days I realized one of my CVE TFs was very tardy.  I tracked it down short of Christmas Island totally out of fuel (yes, I had checked to see that it had enough fuel before departing - or at least I think I did.  [:(]).  Wow, these ships had very high SYS damage!  I diverted them to Palmyra, which was only four hexes away.  They are refueling now and I'll probably send them to Pearl to recover the SYS damage.

Been there, done that. When this happened to me, I think I came to the conclusion that it was caused by flight operation fuel expenditure not being taken into account for TF range calculations.

I actually had the Lexington creeping around around at 0 knots ... luckily, no sub found her before I could refuel. [:)]

[Canoerebel]

Pant, pant, wheeze, wheeze:  It's not often that Miller gives me a shot as his combat ships, but I may have one now.  He has a CA/CL TF guarding some transports at Port Moresby.  The Allied carriers are in a perfect position to cut them off and hit them hard.  This isn't without risk:

1)  Mller might have the Mini-KB nearby.  I think my carriers (Wasp, Saratoga, Essex, Victorious, and three CVEs) can handle that threat - or at least give as good as they get.

2)  There are Japanese airbases at Port Moresby and Milne Bay (and to a lesser extent, because more distant, at Lae and Rabaul) that could factor in.  The Allies have been steadily hammering both PM and Milne for months, so I question whether Miller would utilize them for fear of Allied LBA.

This ambush "feels right" for the Allies.  If Miller has out-thought me, so be it. 

[John 3rd]

Up and At 'Em!  Good Luck!
 

[Zacktar]

That's the spirit -- toujours l'audace!

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Your game started just after AE came out. You have had to deal with a lot of problems that have been addressed in patches and hotfix (but possibily not all). The issue of pilot training is a major one. I think my first patch of recruits trained up in Japan will take about 2 months to complete (70 experience in only one area). They will go to into the Reserve and replace carrier daitais first.

A truer test of this game will be when you play the second time and the learning curve is more forgiving. You have done us all a big favor by bringing up issues from this game and getting the developers to look at and make changes. By AE's one year anniverary, it should be a relatively stable game, IMO.

I am not sure how it works for Japan, but if they can train pilots at the same speed as the US, then we AFBs are screwed...The air war turned in late 42 because Japan was running out of skilled pilots more than anything else.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Your game started just after AE came out. You have had to deal with a lot of problems that have been addressed in patches and hotfix (but possibily not all). The issue of pilot training is a major one. I think my first patch of recruits trained up in Japan will take about 2 months to complete (70 experience in only one area). They will go to into the Reserve and replace carrier daitais first.

A truer test of this game will be when you play the second time and the learning curve is more forgiving. You have done us all a big favor by bringing up issues from this game and getting the developers to look at and make changes. By AE's one year anniverary, it should be a relatively stable game, IMO.

I am not sure how it works for Japan, but if they can train pilots at the same speed as the US, then we AFBs are screwed...The air war turned in late 42 because Japan was running out of skilled pilots more than anything else.

This is correct but a good Japanese player can do better work at training and deployment that historically. I would EXPECT the Japanese player to be tougher then the historical situation. Beyond the reasons mentioned earlier think about how we--Japanese--players use the Army and Naval Air Forces interchangeably. Those two services rarely got along and even more rarely actually cooperated...by using them together the air war is much tougher.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Your game started just after AE came out. You have had to deal with a lot of problems that have been addressed in patches and hotfix (but possibily not all). The issue of pilot training is a major one. I think my first patch of recruits trained up in Japan will take about 2 months to complete (70 experience in only one area). They will go to into the Reserve and replace carrier daitais first.

A truer test of this game will be when you play the second time and the learning curve is more forgiving. You have done us all a big favor by bringing up issues from this game and getting the developers to look at and make changes. By AE's one year anniverary, it should be a relatively stable game, IMO.

I am not sure how it works for Japan, but if they can train pilots at the same speed as the US, then we AFBs are screwed...The air war turned in late 42 because Japan was running out of skilled pilots more than anything else.

I agree, crsutton. This is the achilles heel of the current allied AE aerial model, I fear.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the WiTP incremental improvement of 'basic' pilots fresh out of training school is gone. All pilots from the USAA or USN or Commonwealth come in at the same pathetic levels (it's 35, isn't it?) throughout the war. In WiTP, entry-level pilots for the USN, for example would be something like 60-65 in 1945. This higher caliber of replacement pilots was (and still is) very important for the allies.

About the only advantage that I see for the allies is the larger number of on-map GROUPS now present for training pilots. One can pump them full of crappy entry level pilots and train up to '70' EXP or specific skill in a few months. Then they can rotate them into 'General Reserve' for assignment (as the IJ player does now). Eventually (with attendant onerous micromanagement of pilot pools), the allies can field formidable replacement pools to quickly refill those ranks of pilots attritted through frontline combat.

BUT

If the allied player doesn't rejoice in such tremendous pilot micromangement (and who could blame them, really?), the only way they'll be able to bring decent pilots continuously to the fore is by rotating whole groups into action and rotating whole groups out of the action in their entirety. This requires a larger number of groups closer to the action and probably doesn't provide for homogenous good pilot cadres to be constructed in the rebuilding groups / squadrons.

I think that the poor entry skills of allied aviators is problematic. They should be at least 15-20 points higher than Japanese entry level skills, particularly as the war rolls on into 1943-1945 and the pilot training machine that was the USAAF and USN pumps out decent pilots en masse.

Airframes 'feel' about right, a/c durability and capabilities 'feel' about right, CAP 'feels' about right, but the incessant ability of the IJNAF and IJAAF to field superior pilots late into the war at the expense of the allies feels very much wrong.

It's too easy for the IJ to keep pace in the air war with pilot quality. Training is too fast, too easy. It shouldn't be so.

My two bits...

[John 3rd]

Do we have any Japanese players who have advanced far enough into AE to comment to the Chicken on this?