TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: sanderz

ORIGINAL: aga2008




as I'm cavalry's opponent let me add my view on this topic:

ad 1: No research was done using the described approach (switching at zero cost from Zero research to George research). All George research started at 0. I never saw a possible switch from the A6M line to N1K line research at zero cost. But actually I can't remember with which version of RA we started so it may be that something like that was possible. Anyway - and you have to trust me on that - that was never done in this game.
If you look below, it took more than 300 days to get the first month of advancement. If I had used an existing switch it wouldn't have taken that long.

In this history of the research the leftmost column is the turn number(taken from tracker). Please note that in the end just 6 turns were needed to advance N1K2 one more month. And you can do your math to find out what that cost me...

317 Aircraft N1K1-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 4/43 Information
345 Aircraft N1K1-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 3/43 Information
371 Aircraft N1K1-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 2/43 Information
389 Aircraft N1K1-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 1/43 Information
399 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 7/44 Information
407 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 6/44 Information
413 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 5/44 Information
421 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 4/44 Information
427 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 3/44 Information
435 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 2/44 Information
443 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 1/44 Information
449 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 12/43 Information
457 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 11/43 Information
463 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 10/43 Information
471 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 9/43 Information
477 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 8/43 Information
485 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 7/43 Information
493 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 6/43 Information
499 Aircraft N1K2-J George Aircraft R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 5/43 Information

ad 2: A7M uses Ha-43 therefore getting the engine bonus is much more difficult. In addition - the N1K1 which is the predecessor for N1K2 - comes much earlier and means you'll inherit fully repaired research facilities for N1K2 as soon as N1K1 is available. And this in turn is much earlier than for Sam. That - and not any exploitation of a possible bug in the mod - is the reason of choosing George instead of Sam.

as a bonus also see the reasearch history for Ha-45 - also valuable for Frank research ..

81 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 8/43 Information
121 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 7/43 Information
149 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 6/43 Information
177 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 5/43 Information
205 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 4/43 Information
233 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 3/43 Information
277 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 2/43 Information
315 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 1/43 Information
335 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 12/42 Information
355 Engine Nakajima Ha-45 Engine R&D Accelerated Production accelerated to 11/42 Information

Just had another look at the stats for the various navy fighters and the above strategy seems very viable - i can't see any reason to ever build/research the Sam or Jack when George is better on most stats and is CV capable. You could even make it the only navy fighter to research (other than early Zeros) and ignore J6/J7 i.e. go for pure volume of Georges and win the game before the J6/J7 could become a factor.

Having said all that i am a long long way from being knowledgeable about this game and would welcome some input on whether the above is anywhere near correct.

Thanks

This has been--or better said I THINK--this has been fixed. There is no 'free' conversion in 5.0. Someone, who is not me, please check this and verify to be safe.

hi john

this was more a comment on the actual plane stats rather than the free conversion -- as a result, and because the george upgrades through all the models (including CV models) - it just doesn't seem worthwhile to ever research the sam and jack

[John 3rd]

OK. Got it. Thanks. Thought I had missed something HUGE!

[John 3rd]

Did 5.1 down-and-dirty. Posted and available. Should fix Japanese TF 90 and Allied TF 428.

[John 3rd]

Michael and I have been round and round on the Japanese 2nd Generation CV Fighters. The example above as well as his own work in the campaign he is now fighting really demonstrates how airframes can be brought forward FAST.

What we've been talking about is the choice of JACK, GEORGE, and SAM for some sort of CV-Based capable fighter. His position is go all-in on GEORGE and let that be your workhorse for the last year-and-a-half of the war. JACK is seen as a stop gap for a few months but then here comes GEORGE. If you have GEORGE then why bother with Mister SAM? Anyone got thoughts on this conundrum?

Additional thing I was thinking on was a size limitation on what CV can carry GEORGE. That plane is a CORSAIR for Japan in terms of size. Would it make any sense to limit it to CVs ONLY? CVLs and CVEs would be forced to carry other smaller fighters (like JACK or the old ZERO). Would that be a STUPID House/Scenario Rule or what?

[DOCUP]

How far forwards can the be brought?

[John 3rd]

That question is far better directed to Michael. He has brought both FRANK and GEORGE forward at huge cost but he has them.

I might look at reducing the aircraft lines to prevent focusing 8-10 research facilities able to focus research on 2-3 separate aircraft. Not sure but I'll let Michael explain when he sees this.

[ny59giants]

This is our last email between John and me on the subject....

BTSL v3.1 (Michael's current game – now in 8/21/43)

Zero:
A6M2 (12/41) to M5 (10/42) to M5b (3/43) to M8 (8/43) – CV capable line (I’ve stayed with 120/month and stopped production in 8/43 as George take over everywhere)
A6M3 (2/42) to M3b (6/42) to M4 (1/43) to M4-J (7/43) to M8-J (2/44) - Interceptor (I stopped after M3b and went to M5 line and now George)
A7M2 Sam (9/44) to M3 (9/45)

Frank: need to include to show what 10 R&D factories can do!!
Ki-84a (4/44) to 84b (3/45) to 84r (12/45) – I got the ‘a’ at end of 7/43 with 4x 30 and 4x 60 factories plus engine bonus. There is one factory for ‘b’ and ‘r’ models. The ‘b’ model is now advancing one month every 15 days. Should be available around 6/44.

George: I used 8 R&D factories
N1K1-J (1/43) - I got in 11/42; to K2-J (4/44) I got in 4/43; to K4-A (1/45) I’m getting in 9/43; to K5-J (5/45) - Three factories are producing 270/month while the other five stay on R&D


BTSL v5.1 (downloaded this morning)

Zero:
A6M2 (12/41) to M5 (10/42) - CV capable line
A6M3 (2/42) – Interceptor
A6M5a (2/43) – FB, CV capable, with armor Move back a few months. Michael: I would like this model to be a continuation of the M5 model line. This may end up being your CV based fighter until Jack and/or George comes out.

Sam:
A7M2 Sam (11/44) to M3 (4/45)
A7M3-J (6/45) – NF with the cannons firing up??
Michael: Are we deciding the Sam is not going to be a viable option for these mods??

Jack: Advance line three months
J2M2 (2/43) to M3 (12/43) to M5 (8/44) – land interceptor
J2M3a (1/44) to M3b (6/44) to M3c (4/45) – John: They are SUPPOSED to be all CV. Additionally, move the better service rating M3b up faster. That could be a draw for production.

John: With more focus, this CV-Variant could come in in mid-to-late 1943. This would be a full six to seven months prior to George. Would also have to check engines.

Michael: This may be my stop gap CV fighter that is used mostly for defense in ’43 (CAP). They do go from SR3 to SR2 and get more speed, but slower than George which is just under 400mph. From your experience vs Dan, how do they stand up to the Corsairs? Do you like the Jack or George vs the best Allied CV fighters?

George:
N1K1-J (9/43) to K2-A (11/44) to K4-A (5/45) to K5-A (10/45) – only 1st model is NOT CV capable!!

John: How would that affect your production speed?

Michael: Still my CV based fighter of choice is George. I will add more R&D factories (12 plus) to get the CV variant a year early. Just in time for the last CV/CVL finishing production in late ’43. It has better speed, longer range, and the same maneuver numbers as the Jack.

What would I produce??
10 R&D for Frank and George lines each. So, Frank ‘a’ and George K1-J in summer of 43. The CV capable George will be around 1/44. “IF” I was willing to devote at least 6 to 8 R&D factories to get J2M3a Jack (CV capable), it would come in same time as 2nd gen George which is CV capable. Why produce the Sam at all?? You have the 2nd gen George with 3rd gen shortly behind. I’m going all in on George, some for land based Jack only, and no Sam with these numbers.

What would I change??
Zero – A6M5a goes back to just a fighter and start date is moved back to 6/43. This model would have to be main CV fighter for 43 until 2nd gen George arrives. I don’t know what to do about the Sam to make it a viable option??
Jack – All three M3a, b, c are CV capable
George – K4-A back to 5/45 as it is only two months behind K2-A right now.

[John 3rd]

Fixed some issues with the Fighters:

1. JACK M3a, M3b, and M3c are all carrier capable. Screwed that one up my making the M3a ONLY CV capable.
2. Made A7M3-J SAM into a NF. Does anyone have an issue with that? Also fixed it so the M2--M3 does not automatically go to M3-J. Was torn on separating it out or not and since I have not published these changes, I am open for thoughts.

[John 3rd]

Far as I am concerned, my work with BTSL is complete. Will load 5.1 and Post when that is done.

Time to shift to BTS.

[Kitakami]

The mod will have to be played out to really see how they really are, but I think they will turn out ok.
As I am playing the allies, I will try to give an unbiased opinion as I see things evolve.

Thanks to the Mod Team!

[John 3rd]

Thanks. Need to Post the update.

[John 3rd]

Done. I left the Mod at 5.1 since the changes were relatively minor.

[Edward75]

Some ships and planes without pictures (For example: CA Niitaka, CVL Kushiro (G. 6 Class), G5N Liz, G8N Rita, may be more.).
What is wrong?

[John 3rd]

I just placed the new Between the Storms onto the website. Many changes are detailed on the webpage.

[John 3rd]

BTSL now uploaded onto the website.

[John 3rd]

Michael caught that the new SS Upgrades do not include their GLENS. Whoops! Here is the updated BTSL and BTS Mods FIXING that. Stupid Mod designer...

[BillBrown]

I was looking at BTSL and saw that ship class 1892 CVL Aso 'upgrades' to ship class 1891( this is a down grade )

And another question:
Ship class 2052 is available 12/41, it upgrades to 2010 and then 2011.
But it starts with capacities of 510 troop and 4367 cargo and the two upgrades are 410 troop and 3930 cargo,
they do get a little more small AA guns, but it doesn't seem worth it to upgrade.

[John 3rd]

Have been plinking on the Mods and have brought Treaty Mod up to the changes we've worked with in Between the Storms. Just so you know. There are no changes to Treaty other then the new ships and vessels allowed by the Washington and London Naval Conferences. Past those addition, this is a straight out Scenario One Campaign. Players get a few shiny new toys to enjoy and that is it. Always remember it is 5:5:3.5 so the Allies ALWAYS get MORE!

Will Post when the Mod is Posted on the RA website.

[John 3rd]

Treaty 3.0 Posted.

[Cavalry Corp]

Dear John and all involved in RA7.9 which I am playing.

Play by email two-day turn human opponent. I am playing allies. Current game just starting September 1943

If you like I would like to send you the game turned see you can see what is going on.

Firstly the scenario is very entertaining and is obviously designed to be very challenging for the allies. However I want to comment on a few things.

Firstly I think with this beefed up Japan the allies need at least double the amount of political points. I have almost no capability in this area at all. I cannot imagine the allies (British particularly) would sit on the border of Burma and not want to try and re-invade.
If we have a house rule of restricted units not crossing borders which we do this is impossible. The alternative is to make a lot more units unrestricted.

The second issue is submarines. I am still having around 75% or more misses or duds and its end of August 43 ( must have had 8 opportunities on Jap CV only 1 hit) . Is this something you can check. I have done all the upgrades and changed the captains - still very little success compared to all my other games. they cannot even hit AK or PB.


The next thing and more important is that the Japanese player has seemingly built all the best Japanese fighters like the N2 George he has his CV. This fighter is better than the hellcat it seems which it shreds in droves. As soon as these guys turn up I lose every battle ( he even takes on LBA easily) . I will admit at times he has only faced land-based fighters and CVE, Hellcats and Wildcats. With this fighter around the Wildcat is a dud... plus it also shreds P38 AND P47. In Burma the allies only have Hurricanes and they are nop match for the Jap fighters there - waste of time flying.
This issue in particular means the allies have only made very limited gains. I know Andreas posted to you before about how he achieved this. But I find the idea that Japan can help build and out technology the allies a little bit too fanciful, of for technology but not both. Then there is the issue of plane building itself. There is woefully short production on important allied types it seems. Maybe that is by design as I am not playing any other game as allies. Can you advise if you changed this.

Michael