Frozen frogs! Stef78 (axis) Stelteck (Russia) - Stelteck welcome

[STEF78]

Turn 208, 7th june 1945

Soviet pressure is increasing all along the frontline. No good news except some rare held results.
- German border is crossed north of Niemen
- situation is looking ugly north of Lvov
- 2 hungarian inf divs are surrounded
- even a strong stack without entrenchement is useless



In the South, my frontline units are methodically crushed



as usual I try to counterattack but time has changed! 2 are required to move one russian stack... losses are very heavy for a poor result. look at the AFv losses... Pzd supermen?



In Ukraine, I gather almost all what is available against the russian spearhead. 20 miles are earned but the cost is very heavy...

[STEF78]

Turn 210, 14th june 1945

No way to stop russian advance. We lose our first german city (Memel) and the polish border is crossed. stacks with a Pzd and 2 inf divs cannot hold...

The russian "tank ball" in Ukraine is far too mighty...



In the South, russian are now only 20 miles from the romanian border

[Stelteck]

Some advice if you plan to play soviet in the late years [:D]:

- I really did not created enough infantry corps. As you can see in the picture, i do not have even 3 rifle corps per front case in contact with the german. I have large portion covered by only 1 or 2. It is not enough. I cannot crushed the line where the german are weak, because i'am weak here too.

- I created tons of cavalry corps. It was not so much a good idea. Cavalry corps do not upgrade and so still need light tanks in 1945, while my light tanks production stopped end 1943. [:D] So my cavalry corps have no tanks and low Combat Value. Still usefull to enter in enemy holes but for the cost i would rather have more Infantry corps.

- I created a lot of tank corps. I have mixed feeling about it. They are better than cavalry corps because they upgraded and light tanks were removed from their order of battle end 1943. They were very usefull with medium tanks.
Still my enormous stockpile of medium tanks built during the early years was set to zero spring 1944 due to them taking huge looses in each battle against the enemy in 1942 and 1943 and now i have a production of less than 300 per turn, which is not enough to cover the looses so most of them cannot keep a high combat value at all.

For support units, good support units for motorized units are Heavy Tank regiment and SU, especially light SU regiment which have a good production (SU-76).
I had to disband all my tanks regiments (and i created a lot of them) because i have no more medium tanks to fill them.

Also, i put a lot of tank regiments and SU in my rifle corps but it was too costly i should have filled them with full sapper regiment or things like that.

Last funny note : US land lease nearly stopped for trucks in 1945 because the war is won, didn't it ? Or it is not. [:D]

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Some advice if you plan to play soviet in the late years [:D]:

- I really did not created enough infantry corps. As you can see in the picture, i do not have even 3 rifle corps per front case in contact with the german. I have large portion covered by only 1 or 2. It is not enough. I cannot crushed the line where the german are weak, because i'am weak here too.

- I created tons of cavalry corps. It was not so much a good idea. Cavalry corps do not upgrade and so still need light tanks in 1945, while my light tanks production stopped end 1943. [:D] So my cavalry corps have no tanks and low Combat Value. Still usefull to enter in enemy holes but for the cost i would rather have more Infantry corps.

- I created a lot of tank corps. I have mixed feeling about it. They are better than cavalry corps because they upgraded and light tanks were removed from their order of battle end 1943. They were very usefull with medium tanks.
Still my enormous stockpile of medium tanks built during the early years was set to zero spring 1944 due to them taking huge looses in each battle against the enemy in 1942 and 1943 and now i have a production of less than 300 per turn, which is not enough to cover the looses so most of them cannot keep a high combat value at all.

For support units, good support units for motorized units are Heavy Tank regiment and SU, especially light SU regiment which have a good production (SU-76).
I had to disband all my tanks regiments (and i created a lot of them) because i have no more medium tanks to fill them.

Also, i put a lot of tank regiments and SU in my rifle corps but it was too costly i should have filled them with full sapper regiment or things like that.

Last funny note : US land lease nearly stopped for trucks in 1945 because the war is won, didn't it ? Or it is not. [:D]

I never concentrate on Cav Corps. Yes it is nice to have some for the first blizzard and the early 42 attacks but beyond that they are a dead end unit for me. I try to never build more than 1 army worth if that.

I know I don't build tank SU's

All great info Stelteck for people playing the long game. Again great sticking in there for the long haul

BTW, What is German Armor total at this stage of the game? I have always noticed a very high amount of armor for the Germans. The last OOB had 14,555 from 3rd of May 45. To me the Germans just are "not" taking armor loses. The OOB for German armor keeps on rising and rising and rising and rising and rising and rising even though you are attacking everywhere.

[Stelteck]

True It is very hard to kill german tanks.

[chaos45]

I would disagree on cav corps- guard cav corps have almost twice the CV of a guard tank corps in 1942.

I would say prolly 15 cav corps is the sweet spot and you get like 15 just from the cav divisions the soviet OOB gives you. Esp now that cav divisions auto respawn and aren't permanently wiped out, if I remember right hard to keep up with all the patch changes lol.

[Telemecus]

Also tremendous info for the long game we so rarely play.

An old question on T34s - but would you say now from what you know of the late game that in fact it was worth saving as many factories of them as you could? The old orthodoxy was you would have more than you ever need but you have proved that wrong?

[No idea]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Some advice if you plan to play soviet in the late years [:D]:

- I really did not created enough infantry corps. As you can see in the picture, i do not have even 3 rifle corps per front case in contact with the german. I have large portion covered by only 1 or 2. It is not enough. I cannot crushed the line where the german are weak, because i'am weak here too.

- I created tons of cavalry corps. It was not so much a good idea. Cavalry corps do not upgrade and so still need light tanks in 1945, while my light tanks production stopped end 1943. [:D] So my cavalry corps have no tanks and low Combat Value. Still usefull to enter in enemy holes but for the cost i would rather have more Infantry corps.

- I created a lot of tank corps. I have mixed feeling about it. They are better than cavalry corps because they upgraded and light tanks were removed from their order of battle end 1943. They were very usefull with medium tanks.
Still my enormous stockpile of medium tanks built during the early years was set to zero spring 1944 due to them taking huge looses in each battle against the enemy in 1942 and 1943 and now i have a production of less than 300 per turn, which is not enough to cover the looses so most of them cannot keep a high combat value at all.

For support units, good support units for motorized units are Heavy Tank regiment and SU, especially light SU regiment which have a good production (SU-76).
I had to disband all my tanks regiments (and i created a lot of them) because i have no more medium tanks to fill them.

Also, i put a lot of tank regiments and SU in my rifle corps but it was too costly i should have filled them with full sapper regiment or things like that.

Last funny note : US land lease nearly stopped for trucks in 1945 because the war is won, didn't it ? Or it is not. [:D]

Thanks for your thoughts. How many inf corps/cav corps/ tank corp did you make? Just to grasp what you are talking about when you say “i made too much/too few”

[M60A3TTS]

Your build choices were similar to those of topeverest although I think he was even more extreme in terms of building units.

You were being thrifty on admin point spend by not buying rifle corps in 1942 and that was not the way to go IMO. Since unit loss replacements in 1942 are no longer requiring large AP spends, by late 1943 there isn't a great deal needed to spend the points on. I try to manage my AP spend so I have about 50 rifle corps (mostly guards) by the end of 1942 and have enough in the bank to build another 50 on the first turn of 1943. From there, I will add another 50-60 before summer, and round it out with 20 more as time progresses. That amounts to 180 rifle corps. You still need a small group of rifle divisions, brigades totaling about 40 division equivalents, and AT-brigades to cover the entire front. Once East Prussia is cleared, assuming that Leningrad is Soviet controlled and the Finns are out of the war, disbanding all units of the Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts is the final major change to my OOB.

I don't know what you consider "tons" but 28-30 tank corps and 24 cavalry corps along with 8 mechanized corps have always provided me with an adequate exploitation force that can help you get to Berlin. More than that often sit idle waiting for the infantry to help create the breakthrough.

Medium tank regiments in support units I have mentioned before in other threads: don't do it in quantity. When the tank corps TO&E changes in November 1943, you are going to consume a lot of the medium tank pool as the corps go from 99 medium tanks to over 200. Heavy tank regiments and flame tank bns/regts can take the support slots if that is what you are looking for.

Tactically, too often Stef has been able to hit at your tank corps in counterattacks not involving an exploitation. Your mobile troops should always be off the front lines unless in an exploitation role. This lessens fatigue and conserves your tank force. As you have demonstrated so clearly, the Soviets have a limit on how many tanks they can field. Even when in exploitation, you should not be stacking three tank corps because they are so manpower light. Mix in the cavalry and mech corps and the loss ratios will be better. Having an infantry army in a position to assist an exploitation is often a good idea, although not enough Soviet players do this because they think with enough tanks they can win consistently and that is just not the case. By the way, I have never had an issue with cavalry corps not being useful right up to when Berlin is stormed.

From 1943 on, the Soviet objective is to grind down and exhaust the German infantry division. The combat engine is just not going to beat down your average panzer division to the needed degree. But you can still decrease the value of that panzer division by beating up the infantry to such an extent that the panzers have to start going into the front lines. Once they do that, their reserve functionality is lost and fatigue rises, making their intervention in important battles more difficult. That is when the Axis performance can be visibly seen to slide.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


From 1943 on, the Soviet objective is to grind down and exhaust the German infantry division. The combat engine is just not going to beat down your average panzer division to the needed degree. But you can still decrease the value of that panzer division by beating up the infantry to such an extent that the panzers have to start going into the front lines. Once they do that, their reserve functionality is lost and fatigue rises, making their intervention in important battles more difficult. That is when the Axis performance can be visibly seen to slide.

This is so true. This is the key that has to be turned.

[STEF78]

Good analysis from Stelteck. I would add he didn't enough focuse on air war. Il2M are a killing for german AFV!

But the key point is: are german pzd supermen impossible to destroy or at least to weaken?

I really don't believe it and I will share some datas

We are now early july 1945 and german have 13500 AFV! but WITE is not only counting tanks but also lots of others elements.



Surprisingly when we examine only Pzd and mot units we get 9500 AFV. It's means that 4000 AFV are deployed in inf units... Where are they?



For example here...



Or more detailed...



Not real AFV isn't it?

And except for Tigers and king tigers, my pool is empty... german tanks can be destroyed...



It's confirmed when you look closely to german pzd. Don't forget that the TOE shown on the upper map reflect global TOE, not only AFV TOE.



It's confirmed when you look at Stug brigade



I hope you will now be sure that german AFV can be destroyed. And if still not, look at the datas of all battle shown in this AAR

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: STEF78

Good analysis from Stelteck. I would add he didn't enough focuse on air war. Il2M are a killing for german AFV!

But the key point is: are german pzd supermen impossible to destroy or at least to weaken?

I really don't believe it and I will share some datas

We are now early july 1945 and german have 13500 AFV! but WITE is not only counting tanks but also lots of others elements.



I hope you will now be sure that german AFV can be destroyed. And if still not, look at the datas of all battle shown in this AAR

Thank you Stef78 for the data. Does prove a great deal for the late game and has sedated some of my fears. Thank you and Stelteck for a wonderful game and AAR

[Stelteck]

Thanks for the data. I will post mine when i will have time to shoot screens.

For the Air game i completely agree i'am quite bad at managing it. But each time i tried to do something with it, it took me a lot of time for no reward.
Having a massive raid with en entire front worth of planes of IL2 killing 100 german infantry and maybe damaging one or two tanks really do not worth it in my opinion.

So i'am managing the ground air support for ground battle and little else. Also the enemy DCA is deadly, unlike mine and german fighter pilots too.

I know all the air theory, i'am just still completely unconvinced that it is worth the trouble.

[M60A3TTS]

I'm not sure where you see a fronts worth of aircraft killing 100 infantry. Here is an attack we just did in our MP game with 121 IL-2s.



For you with double the amount of planes in a regiment, that's only 3 regiments worth. Normally in total I like between 100-120 IL-2 regiments. And then you get disruption on top of the kills which lessens your casualties if a ground attack follows. No question it involves more work, but it does get results over time.

[Stelteck]

My non professionnel opinion is that type of raids do not worth it for the looses and the time spent to do it each turn.

Worse, it give victory points to the ennemy and experience&xp to their pilots.

But i acknowledge that noone agree with me and maybe by doubling the turn time it is possible to do something with the air force. (I love interdiction, for example, which can have a real effect). Maybe i'am wrong.

But the reward is not big enough for me. Let's see that by doing all out against the ennemy with the air force, you manage to kill 2K german a turn, which would be a very good result. Will this change the course of the war ?
I do not think so. I think noone will notice the change in manpower.

Even if it was starving the german from men, as soviet, i already know that lacking manpower do not really change combat value of frontline units because the lack of manpower show mostly in support squads, and as soviet i play with low support squads all the time and it looks ok.

In Real life the air force (and especially the IL2) was mostly efficient at slowing units movements due to "precaution against air attack" and especially hammering the fragile supply truck columns. Which we cannot do at all in WITE.
WITE2 will be more interesting. (Still i'am not sûre it is possible to hammer the supply with air force).

[chaos45]

the best use of the soviet air force is to attack retreated German units.....you can do a lot of damage with sequenced air strikes on a breakthrough.

2x bombing, attack- win, bomb the pushed back unit 2x again, attack- win, bomb the retreated unit x2 again, then you can prolly hasty attack and win as the unit has effectively no CV due to disruption at that point.

[STEF78]

ORIGINAL: Stelteck
.../...
But the reward is not big enough for me. Let's see that by doing all out against the ennemy with the air force, you manage to kill 2K german a turn, which would be a very good result. Will this change the course of the war ?
I do not think so. I think noone will notice the change in manpower.

Well done it's more like 5/7k men per turn (it's what I achieved against Bobo) so it's 250/300k men per year 500/600k men end 1943. Believe me, it makes the difference.

[Stelteck]

ORIGINAL: STEF78
Well done it's more like 5/7k men per turn (it's what I achieved against Bobo) so it's 250/300k men per year 500/600k men end 1943. Believe me, it makes the difference.

Impressive numbers. How many bombing run for this ? Around 50 each turn for hundreds of turn ?

[chaos45]

Yes basically you bomb until you run out of Ammo, planes, or miles each turn....and based on targets.

The soviets should start this right off in 1941 for it to have the most effect. The Luftwaffe fighters cant cover everywhere and if they try to, it allows you to pick on the smaller fighter concentrations.

[Stelteck]

What frighten me is that everyone seems to think that :
having to do 50 manualy planned raids per turn plus ton of air rotation to allow that,
is a good thing [:D]