A Japanese Debacle - Sqz (J) vs. fcharton (A)

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

CVs rarely launch both an AM and a PM strike.

Really? I didn't know that.

I've always thought CV's would make every effort to launch in both phases, considering the importance of these kinds of actions.

[FeurerKrieg]

My limited sample of 2 CV battles in my DBB-C game is strikes in both phases.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

CVs rarely launch both an AM and a PM strike.

Really? I didn't know that.

I've always thought CV's would make every effort to launch in both phases, considering the importance of these kinds of actions.

It CAN happen. Anecdotally, I've seen it happen more often when it's CV against CV. When it's against bases or non-CV TFs, it doesn't seem to happen as much.

Also keep in mind that range probably matters here. If you're launching strikes longer than a few hexes away, the planes won't have time to fly 2 strikes in a day.

It's also possible that any movement during the phase could affect it. I've never been clear on whether moving, which burns Ops (obviously), uses the same pool of Ops as launching strikes does.

The opening attack on Pearl is actually a good example. How many times have you seen that fly in the AM and PM? I even did 2 followup attacks in my first Japan game, one of them from 2 hexes away, and didn't get 2 strikes. It's really rare.


Another thing to be aware of is that even if the TF launches 2 strikes, it may not be the same units. E.g., Akagi-2 and Akagi-3 may fly in the first strike while Shokaku-3 and Zuikaku-3 fly in the PM strike and the Akagi units stay home.

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

CVs rarely launch both an AM and a PM strike.

Really? I didn't know that.

I've always thought CV's would make every effort to launch in both phases, considering the importance of these kinds of actions.

It CAN happen. Anecdotally, I've seen it happen more often when it's CV against CV. When it's against bases or non-CV TFs, it doesn't seem to happen as much.

Also keep in mind that range probably matters here. If you're launching strikes longer than a few hexes away, the planes won't have time to fly 2 strikes in a day.

It's also possible that any movement during the phase could affect it. I've never been clear on whether moving, which burns Ops (obviously), uses the same pool of Ops as launching strikes does.

The opening attack on Pearl is actually a good example. How many times have you seen that fly in the AM and PM? I even did 2 followup attacks in my first Japan game, one of them from 2 hexes away, and didn't get 2 strikes. It's really rare.


Another thing to be aware of is that even if the TF launches 2 strikes, it may not be the same units. E.g., Akagi-2 and Akagi-3 may fly in the first strike while Shokaku-3 and Zuikaku-3 fly in the PM strike and the Akagi units stay home.

only naval strikes can fly in both phases (regardless of if they launch from CVs or from land). Attacks on land targets never launch in both phases (not to say 2 different groups can't hit 1 each in the am and pm).

CVs love targeting other CVs. The only time I've seen alpha strikes against naval targets is when it is another CV... even a lone, damaged CVE will draw more attention than 4 BBs in my experience.
I also rarely see CVs launch both am and pm strikes - even against the KB, though I have very limited sample size there. I have occasionally seen them launch in both am and pm against naval targets, but it is not often.

[Bif1961]

The Japanese pilots wanted to conduct an afternoon attack on PH but were over ruled by the TF Commnader. So the ability to fly a 2nd PM strike on PH was present but denied. Maybe that is affected by the aggression rating of the TF Commander?

[obvert]

I'e seen AM and PM numerous times from CV strikes. I'd have to look back to find details, but it's been my experience that against other CVs this is the norm.

Against other targets strikes are all over the place. I've seen virtually nothing launch for the whole day to having a full KB launch against one SCTF. Or the entire KB splitting many strikes across many TFs.

[SqzMyLemon]

Sigh.

Even at 1:1 odds and 100% prepped for the target I lose an entire division in a river crossing. What BS.

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Ground combat at Lanchow (81,34)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 39243 troops, 304 guns, 94 vehicles, Assault Value = 1266

Defending force 39310 troops, 160 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1127

Japanese adjusted assault: 1312

Allied adjusted defense: 1255

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
11225 casualties reported
Squads: 336 destroyed, 299 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 86 disabled
Engineers: 41 destroyed, 26 disabled
Guns lost 88 (15 destroyed, 73 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1941 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 161 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Assaulting units:
35th Division
27th Division
110th Division
11th Tank Regiment
21st AA Regiment
Mongol Garrison Army
53rd Field AA Battalion
54th Field AA Battalion

Defending units:
76th Chinese Corps
11th Chinese Corps
82nd Chinese Corps
17th Group Army
8th Chinese Base Force
8th War Area
21st Chinese Base Force

The river crossing I attempted near Tuyun, where it went horribly wrong and I lost a division at 1:99 odds, I can accept. An entire division lost again with both an Army and Command HQ fully prepped and three great divisions and get a 1:1? Look at the Chinese defence, they barely break even with adjusted AV and that's with the terrain and forts bonus, yet I get trashed? Comon, give me a break. Ugh, whatever, complete and utter BS to lose 300 destroyed squads again.

[Yaab]

Interesting. I would use this turn for testing the command HQ bonus in a hotseat game. Shock attack doubles your AV but exposes you to additional round of fire form the enemy.Theoretically, command HQ bonus should give you up to 100% assault value bonus.

Consider:

Jap division = 400 AV

Shock attack = 800AV

Command HQ bonus (100% max bonus) - but of what? Unadjusted value or adjusted value? Unadjusted can give you another 400 AV, thus you should reach 1200 AV if you are lucky.

However , if command bonus comes after shock attack, then it should give 800 AV x 2 , thus 1600 AV.

Basically, I would test, test , test to see if you max out at 1200 AV or 1600 AV with shock and command HQ bonus.

[SqzMyLemon]

I'm not sure how any of the mechanics work anymore, but the result seems far too harsh on the Japanese. Considering there is the doubling of AV, the potential for either a 10% or 90% boost on top of that, and all HQ's and divisions 100% prepped for the target I expected better results, or at least not losing 382 squads and another 401 disabled. At 1:1 odds I had to have suffered the worst rolls ever to get these losses.

I don't recall ever having such horrible luck with river shock attacks in the past. My forces couldn't have been prepared any better, yet I get completely trashed and the defence hardly touched. This one is really not sitting well and I think the result is just more extreme BS this game delivers on a regular basis. Extreme results are the norm in this game, not the exception, and that isn't right.

Now I have to hope Francois doesn't shock attack and rout me, which I feel is a distinct possibility since my forces are shattered. What a burn.

[Yaab]

If you look at leaders' recomendattion in the leader selection screen you will see that only those leaders with land skill and aggresion of 50+ in both categories are recommended to lead an assault HQ. Maybe this influences the application of the bonus?

Check the leader in the Command HQ and the divisions.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Interesting. I would use this turn for testing the command HQ bonus in a hotseat game. Shock attack doubles your AV but exposes you to additional round of fire form the enemy.Theoretically, command HQ bonus should give you up to 100% assault value bonus.

Consider:

Jap division = 400 AV

Shock attack = 800AV

Command HQ bonus (100% max bonus) - but of what? Unadjusted value or adjusted value? Unadjusted can give you another 400 AV, thus you should reach 1200 AV if you are lucky.

However , if command bonus comes after shock attack, then it should give 800 AV x 2 , thus 1600 AV.

Basically, I would test, test , test to see if you max out at 1200 AV or 1600 AV with shock and command HQ bonus.

I don't think you always get the bonus. I think there's just a chance. I, for one, have only seen "HQ(+)" a single solitary time.


That's a rough attack, but they happen. War, my friend.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

That's a rough attack, but they happen. War, my friend.

Story of my life playing this game. If it can go bad, it usually does. I really should be used to it by now, but it happens too often and takes the wind right out of my sails.


Whatever, it's past. Getting creamed on river crossings is going to lose me any chance of knocking China out anyway. I might as well just accept it now.

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

That's a rough attack, but they happen. War, my friend.

Story of my life playing this game. If it can go bad, it usually does. I really should be used to it by now, but it happens too often and takes the wind right out of my sails.


Whatever, it's past. Getting creamed on river crossings is going to lose me any chance of knocking China out anyway. I might as well just accept it now.

LOL!!!

Sometimes in my games things seem bogged down and I am feeling sorry for myself because my attacks are not advancing me and I start thinking like what you are doing.

Then I realize I already own 1/4 of Japan.. :O

Some of us tend to minimize the successes and exaggerate the defeats. If you step back and look at the overall picture it might not be as bad as it seems.


Strategically if he is strong in one place he has to be weaker in another.

[SqzMyLemon]

The pace has slowed considerably over the last few weeks. Both Francois and I are busy with family and summer activities.

We've reached May 23rd.

Burma:

Japanese forces have recently captured Moulmein which opens up the land route for reinforcements and supply to reach central Burma. IJA 18th Division is 80% prepped for Port Blair and is currently at Rangoon. IJA 5th, 38th and Imperial Guards Divisions will now move against Magwe, Mandalay and Lashio.


China:

Japanese forces are trying to clear the 3x terrain hex northwest of Tuyun of Chinese forces to allow a move against Kweiyang. The terrain, relatively low stacking limit and a Chinese AT unit is proving hard to overcome. Japanese tank forces are not performing well in the tough terrain, and the anti-tank guns are causing high disablements and loss amongst the armour. Another Japanese division will arrive in ten days to reinforce the attackers, but this will put me just over the SL. I've conducted intermittent bombing of the hex, weather permitting, but a recent reorganization of aviation support and base expansion will allow a concerted bombing campaign to begin. The goal is supply reduction to strain the defenders. With the Tojo available soon and some squadrons upgrading to the Nick, I'm confident sustained air operations will break the Chinese defence and prevent Allied bombers from disrupting my forces too much.


Java:

With Soerabaja captured, Japanese forces begin the push towards Batavia. Slow going so far, but the terrain is proving to be more of a hindrance than the Dutch so far. It's a grind, but progress is being made.


Luzon:

Bataan was captured on May 23rd. Minesweepers will clear the hex of mines and allow bombardments of Manila. One more pocket of resistance to deal with, then Japanese forces can concentrate 100% on Manila. Four divisions and substantial artillery is available to reduce Manila. I expect high fort levels, but the air force and navy should be able to suppress and degrade the defence.


Economy:

Aircraft R&D is progressing nicely. After the heavy investment in factory expansion settled down, daily factory repairs are now minimal. Supply is being banked at an impressive rate of 11-15k per day and none is being shipped out of Japan. Healthy stockpiles of Ha-33 and Ha-35 engines are providing the research bonus to fully repaired aircraft R&D factories. Production of the Ha-44 engine is 60/month and has almost 300 engines stockpiled. I plan on keeping Tojo production relatively low and won't start producing the Helen until the 'b' model.

Oil is dropping significantly in Japan, but fuel has been holding steady or slowly increasing. The larger tankers are now deployed at Saigon and CRB in an effort to draw fuel away from Singapore. I think it is working, if somewhat slower, and when the ports are expanded it should only get better. I try not to use Singapore for anything other than a drop-off point for fuel/oil.


Thoughts:

I'm way behind where I want to be, but my overall position is far better than two months ago. I'm now concentrating on setting up the perimeter and gearing up for a campaign against Darwin. There is Allied activity off the northeast coast of Australia, so I'm planning on getting KB and reinforcements into the area. Base expansion is proving glacial in DBB, so I'm getting worried about the porous perimeter that will result. I'm going to have to pick my strong points well and have a sound counter-invasion strategy in place. I'm starting to think Francois is going to go for a 1943 knockout blow against the DEI or the Kuriles.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm going to have to pick my strong points well and have a sound counter-invasion strategy in place. I'm starting to think Francois is going to go for a 1943 knockout blow against the DEI or the Kuriles.

I don't know about knock out, but you know Francois ... he has a plan. And with him as the allies, you cannot allow him to execute that plan. You have to guess his plan and then counter it before he executes ... tough to do.

So sit back, look at the map, and think Francois.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

CVs rarely launch both an AM and a PM strike.

Really? I didn't know that.

I've always thought CV's would make every effort to launch in both phases, considering the importance of these kinds of actions.

I'm not going to say rarely, BUT the afternoon launch is in no way automatic. It is more common in CV V CV combat, but still not automatic. I get an afternoon attack on PH about 10% of the time ... against non-CV TF's, maybe 25 - 30%, against CV TF's prolly like 60 -70%. All of these numbers are anecdotal, I've never really investigated it in detail.

[crsutton]

Yep, I would think it is a function of many factors, range, leaders, morale, weather and so on. It happens and sometimes it does not. It is the chaos and unknown withing the game that make it so much fun. If you know what will happen all the time then the game would quickly grow boring. This was carrier warfare in 1942. In that respect they just about got it perfect.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I don't know about knock out, but you know Francois ... he has a plan. And with him as the allies, you cannot allow him to execute that plan. You have to guess his plan and then counter it before he executes ... tough to do.

So sit back, look at the map, and think Francois.

Ha, find my inner Francois!

I really have no sense of Francois' play style yet. Since I bailed on Australia, I feel he's just coasting along. There's no doubt he's getting the logistics in place for a move, but since I still have to deal with the DEI and Philippines, he's got plenty of time to prepare.

I'm surprised at the lack of a move against the Solomons, especially considering how weak my position is there. I plan on going back into Australia though, particularly Darwin and the northeast, so maybe that will mess up his timetable somewhat. It's clear to me he's going to defend Darwin, so that's where I'll focus once I free up some divisions.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

CVs rarely launch both an AM and a PM strike.

Really? I didn't know that.

I've always thought CV's would make every effort to launch in both phases, considering the importance of these kinds of actions.

I don't know what game he is playing but it is not the same one I play.

My CVs make Naval strikes in both phases all the time, limited only by bad weather.

If what you are striking is a land target then they will ALWAYS fly only in one of the two phases.

Land targets can only be struck once a day, naval targets can be struck twice a day.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


If what you are striking is a land target then they will ALWAYS fly only in one of the two phases.

Land targets can only be struck once a day, naval targets can be struck twice a day.

The operative word being "can."

If my CVs launch a full strike wing (their full complement set to strike that day), they rarely if ever launch twice in the same day. More often, the PM strike is using different units than the AM strike.