Empire of the Rising Lemon? SqzMyLemon (Japan) v Smeulders (Allies)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
In China, it looks like the Chinese are abandoning Tuyun. I have to move aside a small blocking force, but will be in Tuyun in 2-3 days. If the base is abandoned and the Chinese expect me to perform another river assault they will be disappointed. I will move to flank the river line and march directly on Kweiyang.

How have you found the supply when sending multi-divisional armies through wooded hexes off of the roads? I am loath to attempt this in my game and feel like I'd get bogged down while the Chinese could simply set up where I would be likely to emerge and build forts there. I know you warned against similar moves in my AAR a while back.

This point is a tough one, as you must leave enough on your side of the river to thwart a counter-crossing, but have to bring enough to knock them out of the good defensive terrain as well. How much will you send off-road?

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Reinforcements that you can pre-prep: You have many Infantry Groups and other LCUs that eventually fill out to a full division. When you click on the units that is already active, you can click on the "components" and see the ETA of the rest of that division. When you click on each component you can ste those parts to start prepping for a future objective. It may be a small thing, but is may be needed to have this division to be 100% prepped for a particular target.

I try as often as I can to pre-prep, but in the past haven't much on the defensive. A good reminder to make sure I am doing so now, and it's easier since I know where I'll need some divisions.

Michael, what's your take on splitting up divisions for garrisoning multiple islands or bases. I know they are not as effective split, but I'm trying to cover a lot of ground right now in the Pacific. Do you think it's best to keep them intact even though that means occupying less ground? I'm leaning towards keeping them intact and occupying the most valuable bases at this point, and hope I have the time to flesh out the supporting islands or bases as more troops become available.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
In China, it looks like the Chinese are abandoning Tuyun. I have to move aside a small blocking force, but will be in Tuyun in 2-3 days. If the base is abandoned and the Chinese expect me to perform another river assault they will be disappointed. I will move to flank the river line and march directly on Kweiyang.

How have you found the supply when sending multi-divisional armies through wooded hexes off of the roads? I am loath to attempt this in my game and feel like I'd get bogged down while the Chinese could simply set up where I would be likely to emerge and build forts there. I know you warned against similar moves in my AAR a while back.

This point is a tough one, as you must leave enough on your side of the river to thwart a counter-crossing, but have to bring enough to knock them out of the good defensive terrain as well. How much will you send off-road?

I would not hesitate. Any Japanese supply issue is more than mitigated by the woeful Chinese supply problems. You beat the Chinese by just grinding them down. I think the Japanese player can look for 1-1 odds situations and with the use of air power defeat just about any Chinese stack.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

How have you found the supply when sending multi-divisional armies through wooded hexes off of the roads? I am loath to attempt this in my game and feel like I'd get bogged down while the Chinese could simply set up where I would be likely to emerge and build forts there. I know you warned against similar moves in my AAR a while back.

This point is a tough one, as you must leave enough on your side of the river to thwart a counter-crossing, but have to bring enough to knock them out of the good defensive terrain as well. How much will you send off-road?

Hi obvert,

Great question. Well, considering crossing a river was a disaster for me earlier, I don't see any other choice but to hump it through the rough terrain. If Tuyun is abandoned as anticipated, I will rely on it being able to get supply to the troops 1 hex away from Tuyun while they are moving. The major road and railway should help get a stockpile at Tuyun built up at the very least. Supply may be an issue for my troops, but will be nothing compared to what the Chinese must be suffering.

I'm not too concerned about the Chinese countering across the river against Tuyun if it comes to that. I don't see Bart risking a river crossing of his own against a base he could have defended instead. However, I'll have about 1200-1500AV defending the base against a counterattack while I'm traversing the rough terrain. I can always add more if I deem the threat high enough. I have almost 8000AV to play with here. The last major assault against the Chinese in rough terrain saw their AV almost halved, so I'd actually rather face them in a rough non-base hex anyway. I think the forts are low at Tuyun as well, which is why the Chinese are pulling out. Kweiyang may be a different story since it generates supply. It's only 2x defensive terrain though, and my bombers will have a field day.

I'll also try and use some deception by indicating two movement paths after I occupy the hex to the N.W. of Tuyun. I'll show a move east to threaten any Chinese blocking the main road across the river, and a move N.E. directly for Kweiyang. The enemy will have to determine what may be my major move, and if they guess wrong then I might have a local superiority. If they guess right, the bombers will pound away and I'll have to bludgeon my way through.

It's going to be interesting and a slow go, but no other choice as I see it. If I can flank that river line though, the Chinese are in big trouble. I just have to hope the Allies don't move in Burma over the next month and a bit. Highly doubtful, but the Allies are sometimes a little slow off the mark. The lack of action in Burma has me concerned. I wonder what they are waiting for, and I'm not sure why the 4E's aren't softening me up or preventing fort construction at least. Mandalay is almost a level 6 fort.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Dante Fierro

You know - I remember many decades ago getting hooked on hexed based wargames when first watching two High School students setup and play Avalon Hill's France1940 in an empty school room - after classes were over. (I know I have just dated myself!) I used to subscribe to "The General" and "Strategy & Tactics" (mini-wargame in each magazine) when a teenager. Over the years one constant in my life has been gaming - though not always wargaming. When pretty good computer games first started to be developed (Civilization I anyone? Railroad Tycoon?) my gaming interests shifted. Then there was the "Magic" cardgame phase phenomena. Recently it's been the MMO market. Now I have drifted back here to find (somewhat surprised) that the hex based wargame community has not completely disappeared, and in fact, here on the Matrix sponsored website - some pretty sophisticated products are offered based on a very old genre of games. What is a big draw (for me) with wargames - like WiTP AE - is the level of complexity you get - the gaming strategy involved - at a level that to be honest - you just don't get with MMO gaming and a good deal of other computer games (there are perhaps a few exceptions). Which is why I feel drawn back into grognarding - because it still offers considerable value for someone seeking a complex in-depth gaming experience - with the added benefit of learning a bit about human history (and geography).

Anyway - where was I going with all this? Oh yes - what I wanted to say, is that - now that I'm decades older, and have participated in many different gaming communities over the years - I have to really say - the wargaming community has invariably been the most polite, most interesting, and perhaps among the most friendly (and funny) gaming communities I have repeatedly encountered. I find it even more amusing that this is so - considering the gaming genre is based on war! Perhaps the most heinous of all human activites (and not something I would ever want to be part of in real life - as war will make corpses of us all). I suppose the reason wargamers are so friendly and engaging - is likely because you need half a brain to play these hexed base games - or some other yet discovered gene.

Your discussion of modeling here has made me add to my todo list: purchase model (likely Pacific Naval WWII Warship) via Internet. Eventually. [:D]

A great post and it brings back a lot of memories of my wargaming days as well. I have an Uncle (about 10 years older than myself) who got me started on them. When I was in my early teens (I'm 43 so dating myself too [8D]) he had a friend who worked in a toy store that stocked the Avalon Hill wargames. We had access to them all at good prices. He crushed me all the time, but they were fun and I developed a keen interest in history from playing them. Fance 1940 was one of the first ones we played.

I loved Blitzkrieg, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, the original Squad Leader and expansion sets, Victory in the Pacific, Richtofen's War, Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich, War and Peace, etc. I still have them all, almost 30.

I agree on your thoughts about the community. A great group of people here. I strive to attain some of the better characteristics of many of them, especially those that are competitive but don't let their emotions get the better of them, as I often do. [8|]

Now, about that desire to pick up a model...[:D].

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I would not hesitate. Any Japanese supply issue is more than mitigated by the woeful Chinese supply problems. You beat the Chinese by just grinding them down. I think the Japanese player can look for 1-1 odds situations and with the use of air power defeat just about any Chinese stack.

Exactly! I'm pinning my ears back and going for it. I should have done this back in October and scrapped my river assault. However, I'm in a good position now so maybe that lesson allowed me to get my act together in China.

[ny59giants]

Garrisons - you can either be strong in a few places or weak everywhere. I usually want to be strong in a few areas. That means I pick bases that have the greatest base potential. The Americans have so many SeaBees that they start to build condo units on the beach front a month after conquest of the base. [:D] As Japan, you need size 4 AFs to max out your bomb loads. If you can find some that interlock so your CAP will "leak" over to nearby bases and you can use an Air HQ to cover them for torpedo use, you are in great shape. I tend to try to deny bases that also have significant port size. The longer it takes the Allies to load and unload at a base the more opportunity you have to hit him.

OT - I've upgraded my game (Scenario 2 in mid-June '43) to use the modified pwhex files (3) that use the stacking limits. It has decreased the ability of both sides to have roving "Death Stars" from just killing anything placed in front of them. I will not go back to stock in this area. It has been brutal for the first few days getting bases and hexes below the level. Most jungle hexes allow about three divisions. Not the 12 Allied divisions and 9 armor units outside of Chittagong that I was facing.

https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswi ... limit-data

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
OT - I've upgraded my game (Scenario 2 in mid-June '43) to use the modified pwhex files (3) that use the stacking limits. It has decreased the ability of both sides to have roving "Death Stars" from just killing anything placed in front of them. I will not go back to stock in this area. It has been brutal for the first few days getting bases and hexes below the level. Most jungle hexes allow about three divisions. Not the 12 Allied divisions and 9 armor units outside of Chittagong that I was facing.

That sounds like a great change. I have never liked the overstacking in stock, but I also feel a player often has no choice. The defensive terrain modifiers and fort levels make it impossible to move forward without a "Death Star" of ground troops to take these positions. A stacking limit is needed, and it would improve ground combat immensely and reintroduce maneuver and tactics.

[JocMeister]

Hi,

Sorry for hijacking your AAR SqzMyLemon but obvert made me aware of the stacking limits thingy ny59Giants mention. I became very curious and would hope to get some more info on it. I really dislike how the landcombat works in AE. As you say the "death star syndrome" is the only thing that really works. Not much finess in piling on as much as you can in a single hex. That then forces the other side to pile on more which ofcourse leads to the other side piling on even more ad infinitum...

It just leads to outright silly situations where you have 30-50 units in a single hex facing another 30-50 units while the rest of China is more or less void of any units...

Back to your AAR and some allied perspective:
You are correct on the Chinese supply situation. Its horrible. Mayby too horrible and no matter what you do your opponents supply situation will be worse then yours. Looking at the map you posted on the prevoius page your opponent seems to be in a similar situation as I am right now. I would say that all units outside Chunking will have less then half the supplies needed.

[SqzMyLemon]

Hi JocMeister,

Welcome and feel free to post anytime and don't feel like you are hijacking anything. I'm starting to like the banter in the AAR more so than the game at times. I'm seriously thinking of playing one of the mods next time around, and the stacking limits could be a big draw for me.

I hope you are right on the Chinese supply situation. I'm not looking forward to taking heavy casualties otherwise.

[Crackaces]

I would say that all units outside Chunking will have less then half the supplies needed.

Let us say all the units are at 50% supply ..that would be about 60% of effectiveness and that might still offer resistance ..although causulties will be more severe and squads will not recover... the egg shell effect ... Certainly a better picture than the Chineese at 100% supply, but its not zero AV and using terrain one can put up a fight ..

[SqzMyLemon]

Interesting movements in China as the enemy gets wind of the force moving on Tuyun. First, in the north it looks like more units are to be split off from 'The 'Horde' and heading west towards Kienko. Six Chinese units were split off from 'The 'Horde' a few days ago and appeared to be moving on Ankang, however, it seems they have been ordered to withdraw back to the northwest. Reserve units at Chungking appear to have movement orders west towards Burma. I'll keep an eye on things to see how many leave. The 17 Chinese units that successfully defended against my failed river assault appear to have orders to march northwest. How many are leaving has yet to be determined. No movement of troops around Chihkiang, and actually a couple units appear to have orders to occupy the hex east of Chihkiang. Perhaps the Chinese will try a counterattack in the Changsha area after all.

There are three units still at Tuyun, but I think one is being ordered on a suicide attempt to slow my advance and the other two are heading northeast and were delayed by the air attacks. I'll arrive in Tuyun next turn and will assault any Chinese units still there, although I'm pretty sure the base will be empty. I've kept reinforcing units in strat mode at Luichow to facilitate a quick movement to Tuyun once it falls. I'll lose any kind of race to Kweiyang as the Chinese have interior lines and good roads. As long as I don't have cross a river I'm happy with how long it will take to move around the flank. In no way can I afford to risk another river crossing and the casualties incurred last time.

The air attack on Chungking went as planned, no Chinese air opposition but the Flak was heavy. I actually lost two bombers to Flak and a further couple were Ops losses. I'll shift bombers to hit ground troops next turn to slow their movements. I'll still hit Chungking periodically.

In Burma, the Allies bombard Bhamo. We each have two divisions there. Forts are halfway to level 4 again. This is worrisome, as stated earlier I hope the Allies don't move yet, but I'm living on borrowed times there as it is. I think the hammer is soon to fall, especially with developments in China.

The Solomons are quiet, but another naval bombardment goes in next turn. then I halt things for a bit. I'd rather be bombarding an airbase loaded with planes. I'll be a little more discerning when to order a bombardment in the future, it uses up fuel and supplies and it's a drain on my logistics. An interesting development at Ndeni. There are now 37 fighters and 28 auxilliary aircraft based there. I expect to see some LRCAP of Lightning's over Lunga soon. I stood down my bombers attacking Lunga this turn. I may sortie the fleet to whack Nedni. Catching the Allied planes on the ground at this stage is the most effective way to destroy them.

The Allies have gone dark. I'm getting next to no 'heavy volume of radio traffic' reports. SC's are once again snooping around Tabiteuea and the PT's at Ndeni are the only sighted enemy ships. Single enemy submarines are patrolling around Lae and Shortlands, but they are avoiding shallow water and my ASW efforts are suffering from a lack of attacks lately. I'd like to move KB towards Tarawa, as I think that will be the most likely next target, but the Allies are operating some serious wolfpacks around Ponape and Kusaie islands. One indicated five submarines in one TF, and nine in another one. I do not want the Allies to get a crack at KB with multiple attacks, like what happened to a transport TF of mine months ago.

I get CV Taiho in six days, and almost all my remaining DD's refitting are finished in 4 days. They will await the arrival oF Taiho and then escort her south. The addition of almost 20 upgraded DD's for Combined Fleet will be huge, and that will allow me greater flexibility in TF creation. I'm thinking of a light carrier raid off the west coast of Australia. No indication of any movement there, but I want to rattle the Allied cage and perhaps catch something.

Elsewhere, business as usual. Digging in and getting mutually supporting airbases built up in the DEI. The plan is to build up the bigger bases behind the lines out of range of the Allied 4E's, but still within range to strike Allied amphibious operations against the outer perimeter. I learned a valuable lesson on air operations against the enemy invasion forces at Lunga. I must be able to mass and hit the enemy initially with as many attacks as possible to inflict greater damage.

The next turn is sent, but not sure I'll get it tonight with it being Friday when Bart usually can't do turns. I'll provide screenshots of China to highlight what is happening there once Tuyun falls. Any other information people may be interested in knowing feel free to ask.

[JocMeister]

I don´t want to give my esteemed opponent too much info so I sent you a PM. I also have thread in the war room on the allied situation in China you might want to check out! Its not pretty. [:)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Elsewhere, business as usual. Digging in and getting mutually supporting airbases built up in the DEI. The plan is to build up the bigger bases behind the lines out of range of the Allied 4E's, but still within range to strike Allied amphibious operations against the outer perimeter. I learned a valuable lesson on air operations against the enemy invasion forces at Lunga. I must be able to mass and hit the enemy initially with as many attacks as possible to inflict greater damage.

Where have you chosen to put your Air HQs? I'm still really up in the air about this. Even though my esteemed opponent is reading here I'm sure we would have some differing idea but I'd love to hear about your plans.

[SqzMyLemon]

I'm crying foul this turn. My troop movement to Tuyun has been reset to zero as a result of one or two things. Two Hudson's on ground attack bombed my forces marching on Tuyun. One Chinese unit of 7 guns was ordered to move from Tuyun in the direction of my troops to the southwest. Well the Chinese unit now occupies the hex to the southwest of Tuyun as do all my troops. My 30 miles previously traveled last turn have all been wiped out and I have a collective zero movement now.

It's obvious Bart new exactly what he was doing and I think it was cheap. There is no way 7 guns or two bombers should be able to wipe out the accumulated movement of over 100k worth of troops. The movement routine is a joke in this game at times. So now instead of attacking Tuyun next turn, it will take me a turn to wipe out the Chinese unit, two more to march on Tuyun and another to attack it. So I've just lost 4 days. Meanwhile Chinese troops being bombed are having no trouble moving despite interdiction from the air.

This was bush league and gaming the system in my opinion.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm crying foul this turn. My troop movement to Tuyun has been reset to zero as a result of one or two things. Two Hudson's on ground attack bombed my forces marching on Tuyun. One Chinese unit of 7 guns was ordered to move from Tuyun in the direction of my troops to the southwest. Well the Chinese unit now occupies the hex to the southwest of Tuyun as do all my troops. My 30 miles previously traveled last turn have all been wiped out and I have a collective zero movement now.

It's obvious Bart new exactly what he was doing and I think it was cheap. There is no way 7 guns or two bombers should be able to wipe out the accumulated movement of over 100k worth of troops. The movement routine is a joke in this game at times. So now instead of attacking Tuyun next turn, it will take me a turn to wipe out the Chinese unit, two more to march on Tuyun and another to attack it. So I've just lost 4 days. Meanwhile Chinese troops being bombed are having no trouble moving despite interdiction from the air.

This was bush league and gaming the system in my opinion.

The bombing was fair, but the movement into the hex just to sacrifice a worthless unit to stop your motion is certainly gamey. You should call him on that. There's no way that had any value as a move other than to play the system.

I've had that happen before where we were honestly just trying to get to the same hex first and I bombed him to slow him down and get in it. But to do it with a worthless unit that will do nothing once there is beyond the line I think.

[Crackaces]

I've had that happen before where we were honestly just trying to get to the same hex first and I bombed him to slow him down and get in it. But to do it with a worthless unit that will do nothing once there is beyond the line I think.

The entire Russian strategy in WitE is about moving 1-1's in front of armored units to use MP's ..[8D]

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm crying foul this turn. My troop movement to Tuyun has been reset to zero as a result of one or two things. Two Hudson's on ground attack bombed my forces marching on Tuyun. One Chinese unit of 7 guns was ordered to move from Tuyun in the direction of my troops to the southwest. Well the Chinese unit now occupies the hex to the southwest of Tuyun as do all my troops. My 30 miles previously traveled last turn have all been wiped out and I have a collective zero movement now.

It's obvious Bart new exactly what he was doing and I think it was cheap. There is no way 7 guns or two bombers should be able to wipe out the accumulated movement of over 100k worth of troops. The movement routine is a joke in this game at times. So now instead of attacking Tuyun next turn, it will take me a turn to wipe out the Chinese unit, two more to march on Tuyun and another to attack it. So I've just lost 4 days. Meanwhile Chinese troops being bombed are having no trouble moving despite interdiction from the air.

This was bush league and gaming the system in my opinion.

The bombing was fair, but the movement into the hex just to sacrifice a worthless unit to stop your motion is certainly gamey. You should call him on that. There's no way that had any value as a move other than to play the system.

I've had that happen before where we were honestly just trying to get to the same hex first and I bombed him to slow him down and get in it. But to do it with a worthless unit that will do nothing once there is beyond the line I think.

Yes, let me clarify. I am ok with the ground bombing, as I do it too. I certainly think it's a valid tactic to try and slow movement of enemy forces by air bombing. However, at times I have encountered air bombing alone to be responsible for resetting a ground units movement to zero. That is a design flaw rather than anything gamey on a players part. I'm fine if it slows my forces down, but anytime the movement rate is reset to zero after having previously travelled any distance, no way, that is a design flaw.

Sending a 7 gun unit to block my movement and reset it is gamey. There's no ambiguity there at least, it was intentionally gaming the system. I've lost four days while his forces are free to take advantage of that time. I've lost 4 days of movement covering 4 miles a day in rough terrain for my infantry.

Any opinions?

150k worth of troops lost a minimum of 30 miles travelled because of 7 guns. Ridiculous.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I've had that happen before where we were honestly just trying to get to the same hex first and I bombed him to slow him down and get in it. But to do it with a worthless unit that will do nothing once there is beyond the line I think.

The entire Russian strategy in WitE is about moving 1-1's in front of armored units to use MP's ..[8D]

This isn't WitE. That's not even a valid argument considering the land movement and combat are completely different, composed of multiple attacks during a combat phase. A unit composed of 7 guns and no infantry should not be able to hold up 150k worth of troops. I don't want to hear anything about some kind of valiant rear guard action either [:D]. There's no other reason to do it than to pull a fast one, in WitPAE.

[SqzMyLemon]

Here's a screenshot of Southern China to bring everyone up to speed on what is happening there. Lot's of movement. I just noted an omission from the screenshot. There are 14 Chinese LCU's northeast of Tuyun guarding against a river crossing.