Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[Mike Solli]

Good idea about Oosthaven and Merak, Michael. I'll use the 3x ind. eng. reg. as soon as I capture Palembang. That's a great idea to move the fuel from Oosthaven to Batavia.

Thanks for the tip on which islands to check out first. I have a bunch of subs headed in that direction but haven't given them specific islands yet. They're first on the list.

[Captain Cruft]

Re. CS conversions.

I haven't done any of these yet in my game but definitely intend to do so. CVs/CVLs/CVEs don't have to pass a weather check to fly search missions, whereas anything floatplane based does. That is a massive difference in utility, regardless of anything else.

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

11 Feb 42

Philippines

Still air and ground bombardment each day. I’ve noticed that the damage being done each day is slowly increasing while the damage to my guns is decreasing. I do check my artillery units each day and set them to defend if their available strength goes below 90%. I don’t want any more destroyed by counter battery fire.

The 16 Division is cleaning up the Allied units on the islands south of the Philippines. Three more to go then it’ll go to the Philippines and I’ll begin the assaults.

Mike,

I've noticed that you do a large amount of artillery bombardment. I thought that artillery bombardments were generally agreed to be counterproductive. They don't cause much damage or disruption and merely serve to eat supplies and cause the enemy units to increase in experience rather quickly. Has something been changed in a recent patch that I am unaware of?

[Mike Solli]

CPT Cruft, I didn't know that. That definitely sways me toward all converting to CVLs. Thanks.

Icedawg, I've heard that as well, but never checked it out. I'm beginning to wonder if it is worth it simply due to the counter battery fire. It does a real number on my artillery unless I have overwhelming gun superiority. If that's the case, the battle usually doesn't last long anyway.

I've been wondering why Ted left his Dutch planes on the ground. He knows they're just targets. I'll bet he did that just to prevent my pilots from getting experience on the cheap. I'll ask him today.

Another good turn, both in Java and over Pt. Moresby. I'll write it up after work.

[Teikoku Kaigun]

About the CS class, i have been thinking how usefull could they be as an ASW TF with 3 older DDs, E:s or SC:s? Used safely along the coastal convoy routes up to home islands, other air and naval ASW asset set to vector in?

[Chickenboy]

Re: CS-CVL conversions: While their utility as CVLs, once built, is a solid rationale, conversion will take them out of circulation throughout for almost all of 1942 and well into 1943 (365 day delay, IIRC).

Depending on how long it takes you to get them started, having them out of commission for the majority of the IJN expansive phase is a mark against the conversion, IMO. Maybe keeping a CS around for KB protection / scouting in 1942 would be a happy middle ground?

Think things might have worked out differently for Japan in a certainly naval battle in 6/42 if they'd have had better floatplane recon coverage or redundancy? Cause I do.

[Teikoku Kaigun]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Re: CS-CVL conversions: While their utility as CVLs, once built, is a solid rationale, conversion will take them out of circulation throughout for almost all of 1942 and well into 1943 (365 day delay, IIRC).

Depending on how long it takes you to get them started, having them out of commission for the majority of the IJN expansive phase is a mark against the conversion, IMO. Maybe keeping a CS around for KB protection / scouting in 1942 would be a happy middle ground?

Think things might have worked out differently for Japan in a certainly naval battle in 6/42 if they'd have had better floatplane recon coverage or redundancy? Cause I do.

Arent two of them upgrades and other two conversions? So upgrade two as CVLs and keep the rest for ASW?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Re: CS-CVL conversions: While their utility as CVLs, once built, is a solid rationale, conversion will take them out of circulation throughout for almost all of 1942 and well into 1943 (365 day delay, IIRC).

Depending on how long it takes you to get them started, having them out of commission for the majority of the IJN expansive phase is a mark against the conversion, IMO. Maybe keeping a CS around for KB protection / scouting in 1942 would be a happy middle ground?

Think things might have worked out differently for Japan in a certainly naval battle in 6/42 if they'd have had better floatplane recon coverage or redundancy? Cause I do.

Arent two of them upgrades and other two conversions? So upgrade two as CVLs and keep the rest for ASW?

Semantics. The distinction only rationalizes which ports can accomodate them for switchover. IIRC, all 4 take 365 'downtime' to complete the conversion.

[Teikoku Kaigun]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Re: CS-CVL conversions: While their utility as CVLs, once built, is a solid rationale, conversion will take them out of circulation throughout for almost all of 1942 and well into 1943 (365 day delay, IIRC).

Depending on how long it takes you to get them started, having them out of commission for the majority of the IJN expansive phase is a mark against the conversion, IMO. Maybe keeping a CS around for KB protection / scouting in 1942 would be a happy middle ground?

Think things might have worked out differently for Japan in a certainly naval battle in 6/42 if they'd have had better floatplane recon coverage or redundancy? Cause I do.

Arent two of them upgrades and other two conversions? So upgrade two as CVLs and keep the rest for ASW?

Semantics. The distinction only rationalizes which ports can accomodate them for switchover. IIRC, all 4 take 365 'downtime' to complete the conversion.

Sorry, im a newbie so im hardly and expert and only full of questions. [:)] I had understood that uppgrade was faster. You have opinions on how usefull the CS can be in the ASW role i suggested?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun




Arent two of them upgrades and other two conversions? So upgrade two as CVLs and keep the rest for ASW?

Semantics. The distinction only rationalizes which ports can accomodate them for switchover. IIRC, all 4 take 365 'downtime' to complete the conversion.

Sorry, im a newbie so im hardly and expert and only full of questions. [:)] I had understood that uppgrade was faster. You have opinions on how usefull the CS can be in the ASW role i suggested?

Insofar as CS floatplanes usefulness for ASW-I'm decidely 'meh'. The Jakes (or other floatplanes) that would be housed on CS platforms carry minimal offensive armament. Generally speaking, you'd be very fortunate if you damaged an enemy submarine with a CS-based floatplane. Also, the floatplane pilots are generally not experten in the ASW mode-their expertise is generally NavS, an entirely different value.

HOWEVER, their superlative NavS skills will detect all manner of ships in the area, submarines included, thereby raising their DL (detection levels). A submarine with high DLs is an ineffective submarine, so NavS functioning floatplanes off of a CS (or other platform) can neutralize enemy submarines by detecting them. They can also find enemy surface ships while on NavS settings, which is their main value in a combat force, such as KB, in my opinion.

[Teikoku Kaigun]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Teikoku Kaigun

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



Semantics. The distinction only rationalizes which ports can accomodate them for switchover. IIRC, all 4 take 365 'downtime' to complete the conversion.

Sorry, im a newbie so im hardly and expert and only full of questions. [:)] I had understood that uppgrade was faster. You have opinions on how usefull the CS can be in the ASW role i suggested?

Insofar as CS floatplanes usefulness for ASW-I'm decidely 'meh'. The Jakes (or other floatplanes) that would be housed on CS platforms carry minimal offensive armament. Generally speaking, you'd be very fortunate if you damaged an enemy submarine with a CS-based floatplane. Also, the floatplane pilots are generally not experten in the ASW mode-their expertise is generally NavS, an entirely different value.

HOWEVER, their superlative NavS skills will detect all manner of ships in the area, submarines included, thereby raising their DL (detection levels). A submarine with high DLs is an ineffective submarine, so NavS functioning floatplanes off of a CS (or other platform) can neutralize enemy submarines by detecting them. They can also find enemy surface ships while on NavS settings, which is their main value in a combat force, such as KB, in my opinion.

Well i have used one allways with KB2 but not with main KB because lack of speed.
I was thinking about using 1-3 in the ASW role to keep the main convoy routes safe, training and/or replacing the pilots for this role also and having other ASW TF and aerial ASW units attack what they find.
Is this realistic in any way?[:)]

[Teikoku Kaigun]

I know that the IJN didnt take notice waht was going on in the Atlantic and the use of Subs by the Germans or the use of combined naval/air ASW and convoys used by the Allies. I want to use the what i have in the most useful way.[:)]

Any ideas what are the best air units IJN/IJA i can convert in the ASW role and the possible plane types?

[Chickenboy]

Other JFBs (and myself) have commented on the value of IJAAF level bombers used in the ASW role. Set at 1000' or less, with crews trained up >70 values for ASW seems to be the most effective combination of airframe and crew training to effect ASW. Sally, Helen, Peggy (IJAAF) or Nell, Betty (IJNAF) can be used in this role.

Float planes-less useful for ASW per se.

[Mike Solli]

Interesting discussion. I got some facts on the 4 CS:

All take 300+ days to upgrade/convert to a CVL.
All have 30 capacity as a CVL.

Here's where they differ:

Ship - CS Speed - CS Capacity - CVL Speed
Chitose - 28 - 24 - 29
Chiyoda - 29 - 24 - 29
Mizuho - 22 - 20 - 24
Nisshin - 28 - 20 - 28

[Mike Solli]

Looking at the numbers, the Chitose and Chiyoda are fast enough as CS to not really affect KB. Looks like Mizuho should be converted and put with MKB. I'd convert Nisshin if I were going to keep Chitose and Chiyoda as CS because it carries only 20 FP vs. 24.

[PaxMondo]

Interesting to see you struggle with this as well.  Same for me.  CS are so useful for their Search, but still hate not having them as true flattops.

[CT Grognard]

In my current game against Arnhem I have CVE Hosho with 18x Jean torpedo bombers in a task force with 8x SCs and four PBs.

This is a dedicated ASW task force, the Jeans are all set to ASW with their 250kg bombs.

I'll let you know how it works out. [:D]

[Olorin]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Interesting discussion. I got some facts on the 4 CS:

All take 300+ days to upgrade/convert to a CVL.
All have 30 capacity as a CVL.

Here's where they differ:

Ship - CS Speed - CS Capacity - CVL Speed
Chitose - 28 - 24 - 29
Chiyoda - 29 - 24 - 29
Mizuho - 22 - 20 - 24
Nisshin - 28 - 20 - 28

Interesting.
In my game I decided to convert Chitose and Chiyoda.
I will keep Nisshin as a CS to operate in the KB. Its speed isn't much lower than Kido Buttai's battleships, so it won't slow it down by much (1-2 knots isn't a big deal).
Just my humble opinion. [:)]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

In my current game against Arnhem I have CVE Hosho with 18x Jean torpedo bombers in a task force with 8x SCs and four PBs.

This is a dedicated ASW task force, the Jeans are all set to ASW with their 250kg bombs.

I'll let you know how it works out. [:D]

Interesting idea. Why not use Kates?

[Mike Solli]

Olorin, everyone's opinion is welcome here. That's how we japanese players grow into an overwhelming force!


14 Feb 42

Sub War

An S class sub appeared south of Balikpapan in the deep water. It took a shot at a PB on ASW patrol unsuccessfully. My PB dropped DCs above the sub. Well, I know it’s there now.

5 Fleet

There are now 2x Emily flying boats operating out of Adak. A Naval Guard is headed there to augment the base force garrison. In addition, another Naval Guard is on the way to take more of the Aleutian chain. We’ll see how far they go before it causes a reaction from Ted (if any).

Adak’s fort level reached 2 today.

4 Fleet

Three Naval Guards will head to the central Pacific fringe to garrison some important islands. I will decide which islands tonight.

I have identified 4 engineer units from Kwantung Army (3x engineer companies and 1x independent engineer regiment) for 4 Fleet. I’ll probably buy them out today and ship them out.

SE Fleet

Another sweep over Pt. Moresby pitted 22 Zeros against 3 P-39Ds. Two of the P-39s were shot down for no Japanese loss. I did lose two planes to op losses, but no pilots were lost. The mouse over shows no Allied fighters remaining at Pt. Moresby. I’ll sweep again tomorrow. If none show up, I’ll continue to sweep with 2x Zero chutai and begin bombing the airfield the day after. I need to get some IJA bombers down here. I don’t want to use elite Bettys to bomb airfields. I’m sure Ted has AA here. They will most likely come from the 5 Air Division (currently bombing Bataan), but that still has to be determined.

With the capture of Hansa Bay on the NE coast of New Guinea, only Madang remains in enemy hands (and has no enemy troops).

Truk’s port will reach level 7 tomorrow. Finally! Then I’ll shift most of the engineers down to Rabaul to get that airfield to level 7. Right now it’s only at 6.18. A level 7 airfield is critical in an air battle of attrition. Fortunately, I seem to be winning it over Pt. Moresby so there will be a lull until Ted gets more replacement aircraft. He gets the equivalent of 2 squadrons of P-40Es (35) and 1.5 squadrons of P-39Ds (25) a month.

Ted claimed to have sent 8 fighter squadrons to Oz in January. I estimate that I’ve destroyed the equivalent of at least 6 of them since 24 Jan 42, when the air superiority campaign over Pt. Moresby began.

He also said he shipped over 6 bomber squadrons, not including the B-26 squadron now littering the bottom of the ocean, but I haven’t seen any yet. I’d love for him to send them over. They’d get shredded!

China

Another DA on the 3 surrounded Chinese Corps NE of Sinyang resulted in the destruction on one of them. Losses were 136(1) Japanese to 753(51) Chinese. Another attack will occur tomorrow.

Burma

The AVG visited Tongoo today, resulting in an altercation between 10x H81-A3s and 11x Ki-43-Ibs. One H81 was shot down and 2x Oscars were op losses, but we lost no pilots. Overall, a good day. I’m planning on replacing the Ib sentai with a full strength Ic sentai. Then I’ll move the Ib sentai to Bangkok to be upgraded. This will take a while because I’m still using the Ic pool as quickly as they are built. This sentai will take a week of aircraft builds (30 plane sentai).

Malaya

More bombing of Singapore….

SRA

MKB is 1.5 days away from visiting Darwin. Fortunately, it snuck past the sub lurking south of Balikpapan unseen. After the visit, I will probably have MKB sail north past Kendari to Davao for a bit of R&R before its next mission (whatever that will be).

Merak’s airfield reached level 2, which allows offensive missions. What’s left of the Dutch Air Force is grounded so I’ll base some bombers there to begin to soften up Batavia. The 8 Tojos will remain there as CAP, just in case.

In the south of Java, Loemadjang is a functioning level 4 airbase. It’ll perform the same mission, softening up Soerabaja.

The 1250 capacity TKs assigned to Miri/Brunei have been keeping those bases drained, mainly because Miri has not yet been fully repaired (3 months to go). I’m going to send one TF (5 TKs and 2 escorts) to Oosthaven to move fuel from there to Batavia once Batavia is liberated. (Thanks for the tip, Michael.)

With all the troops in Pt. Moresby (20-25k!), I’m curious how many troops are in the north of Australia. Koepang will fall soon and I’ll start to do some recon of the northern bases to see what’s there.

Other Stuff

Reinforcements:

Yokohama Ku T-1 Det – 2 Emily – 24 AF – These guys went to Adak.
45 IF Chutai – 12 Ki-36 – 2 AD – ASW training
91 IF Chutai – 12 Ki-51 – 1 AD – ASW training

CHa-28
xAKL Atsu Maru (To’su class) – will become an ACM
AMc W-1

I culled my training units today (mid-month cull). Here’s what I got:

IJA
F: 26!
GrdB: 5
ASW: 1
NavS: 1
Rcn: 2

IJN
F: 6
NavS: 3
TR: 9

Remember, I pull them when they reach 50+ experience and 70+ stat. A few notes…

Most of my losses have been IJA bomber pilots due to the bombing of Singapore (and Bataan, until recently). I’ve been culling IJA bomber pilots almost daily to get replacement pilots into the sentai. That’s the reason why the GrdB pilot cull was so low.

I’ve already pulled 9 IJA ASW pilots (upper 60s stat) for a chutai based at Balikpapan. Keep in mind that the IJA and IJN ASW pilots all started from scratch. Lots are getting close. There should be a nice crop at the end of the month or mid-March at the latest.

IJA NavS also started from scratch. I don’t expect to need a lot, maybe a dozen or so. Not sure but they’ll start flowing out soon.

I got a nice crop of IJA fighter pilots. That pool has been empty for a long time. I’ll probably use half to two thirds as replacements. Most of the rest will replace elite pilots in IJA units that have more than 1 elite pilot. What’s left will be my small reserve. That should suffice. There are a bunch that are close and should be ready at the end of the month. Hopefully, the IJA fighter pilot pool should go up from here.

Note that there are a lot of pilots that are close for both the IJA and the IJN. Most have 70+ in their stat but <50 for their experience. I’m not sure how important experience is, but as long as the pools are sufficient, I’ll keep them training until they reach at least 50 experience. I’m expecting a huge class of trained pilots at the end of the month.

I didn’t get a lot of IJN pilots because of what the starting pilots looked like in the training units. It was basically a bimodal curve. There were a lot of fully trained pilots and a lot of rookies. I yanked the trained pilots at the start of the game and replaced them with rookies, which means very low experience. Now, most of those pilots have 70+ stat and 40-49 experience. I’m not concerned about this because I have a nice IJN pool. Here’s what it looked like before I added the above pilots:

F: 32
B: 56
P: 44
Tr: 0
R: 0

I increased the number of pilots in the one IJN transport daitai from 27 to 36 and have had them training when not in use. There were 9 at 70+ so I pulled them out and replaced them with 9 more rookies.

IJN recon is a bit of an issue, but only the 3x Babs chutai do this mission regularly and they each started with a couple extra pilots at the beginning of the war so I’m still ok.

The only concern I have is how long it is going to take my torpedo bomber pilots (Kates, Nells and Bettys – lots of them) to train up NavB and NavT. I still have plenty of them in the pool and my losses have been very light, but that can change in a day. Right now I’m keeping pilots in the same unit and changing what the unit trains, but that will eventually end when some pilots in the unit start to reach the magic 70 and others don’t. That’s happening now. I’m most likely going to assign TB units to train one or the other and swap pilots around as needed. That’s a PIA, but I think it’s the most efficient way to do it. I think I’ll move the TB units to two different bases – one for NavB and one for NavT. I may have to throw in a DB daitai to assist. We’ll see. Ted is out of town until Saturday night so I’ll try and play with it tonight if I have the time. All of my IJN trainers are either in Ominato, Yokohama, a base with lots of DBs who’s name I can’t remember or a base on the west coast (Nagasaki, I think). I’ll probably assign one for DBs, one for NavT, one for NavB and one for the rest. We’ll see.

I’m toying with the idea of having Nettie units be specific. Some will just be torpedo bombers in, say the Pacific and others have both attributes in, say the SE Fleet area. That would speed up training a bit.

I don’t have a nice pool of Vals. I may increase their production from 30 to 40 or so. All of my carrier DB units are at full strength but many of my trainers are still short and the pool is chronically at <10.

The Zero pool is ~104. I’ll probably shut off production for a bit when it reaches 120. Maybe not. My Zero daitai at Gasmata is down to a dozen planes (out of 27) and the two Zero units (daitai and chutai) from 24 Air Flotilla are still flying Claudes. That’s another 36. Those 3 units will suck up 50 Zeros once Rabaul’s airfield reaches level 7.