RHS 5 & 6.758 comprehensive update uploaded/frozen/final?

[Bliztk]

ORIGINAL: Dili

PS:Interesting Futur objective in that Unit...

The problem here is not the objetive, it`s the preparation and date. It should be 0 otherwise the supply sink gets experience

[Sardaukar]

Yep...when Prep poits are 100 unit starts to train itself. That'd be *bad* in this instance. I'm not a fan of supply sinks because they can be beast to invade. Using division in Kendari and not getting it to fall in 2 weeks is IMHO badly unrealistic result.

[Bliztk]

Yep, we are going to change the preparation points to 0 into the next iteration.

We have suggested Joe to add in a next patch a unit with 0 AV, now we have to use support and mot support that have 1/10 of AV for supply sinks.

Now we have to resort to the "Staff Officer Bug" and to set the units to 1 exp, 99 disruption and Chinese Nationality for the supply sinks

If anyone wants to change manually the preparation to 0 the affected units are:

Slot     Name
2148    USA Spokane Indstry
2160    USA Salt Lake Base
2215    USSR Blagovys'sk Ind
2275    USSR Khabarovsk Ind
2377    ROC Chunking Indstry
2399    CW Penang Industrial
2448    USSR Vlvstk Industry
2449    NEI Batavia Industry
2498    NEI Toboali Industry
2557    AU Newcastle Indstry
2576    AU Cloncurry Indstry
2585    AUST Perth Industry
2656    US Manila Industrial
2694    US LA Industrial
2706    USA Frisko Industry
2718    US Astoria Industry
2720    US Seattle Industry
2741    Fairbanks Industrial
2754    CA Vancouver Indstry
2755    FF Noumea Industrial
2758    French Koumac Indsty
2760    IA Asanol Industrial
3253    IN Dehli Indstry
3254    AU Melbourne Indstry
3256    USSR Nik'vsk Indstry
3257    USSR Komsmlsk Indsty
3259    NZ Hamilton Industry
3260    NZ Gisborne Industry
3335    AA Sydney Industry
3338    AA Brisbane Industry
3358    IN Madras Industrial
3359    USSR Sakhalin Indsty
3360    CW K Lumpur Indstry
3361    IA Karachi Industry
3362    USSR Irkutsk Indstry
3402    NEI Kendari Indstry
3404    KM Sawahlnto Indstry
3409    NEI Palembang Indstr
3258    CW Nauru Industry
2163    USSR 7th Naval Base

[Sardaukar]

Hmm..Chinese nationality certainly helps since they cannot train their exp as high as others. And setting COs with all stats to 0 (or 1) might help too ? 

[Bliztk]

We use the same leader (Generic Allied Leader 1) for all supply sinks. If one is captured, the "dissapearing leader" bug appears and puts the infamous "staff officer" in charge of all supply sinks, with his stats of 0,0,0 which are far worse codewise than the generic stats of 1,1,2 that the leader uses 

[Sardaukar]

Why just not have individual leader for every sink instead of generic ? I don't think that'd be too much work and it'd get rid of "infamous leader bug" since I don't even want to think possible effects on other leaders if "staff officers" start to appear... Even though that's supposed to be fixed.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Yeah it's an error and a big one.
It just plain wrong to have that kind of units in such places. Kendari was taken by what? a Sasebo SNLF plus some Base Forces unit in all probably a reinforced Battalion at most a Regiment without much fight.
Seems that i'll have to check the whole RHS including the allied side that i didnt wanted to make or probably just go back to CHS...this whole thing of investing in Chinese/Russians and having the fundamentals wrong doesnt make any sense. 



PS:Interesting Futur objective in that Unit...

You managed to lose me entirely. Having China and Russia easy to conquest - when it was IRL either impossible or very, very difficult to do so - "doesn't make any sense" IMHO. The Soviet case has a double whammy - if the USSR is ahistorically weak in a military sense - then the real risks of "move South" are not present and you are not simulating. The real Japanese Army had to decide what it could risk sending South - what had to stay in the North. Manchukuo, Korea and Inner Mongolia aren't just areas on the map - they are the real economic heart of the Japanese Empire - resources wise. IRL Japan is the poorest of the great powers - resources wise - it has almost nothing at home. Except for oil (of which there is some) and, curiously, uranium, almost everything else it needs can be obtained in either substantial amounts or else completely in China, Manchuria, Korea and the minor states (which Japan treated like independent countries) of Liaoning and Inner Mongolia. [In this system all resources are equal - and are measured by weight. 2/3 of ALL the resources Japan needs to import are coal - period - weight wise. And all the coal it needs - more than it needs - is available in these areas. Combined with iron ore, soy, timber, rice, and about 20 other major imports, more than 90% of the tonnage it needs comes from this area.] And if Russia is weak - Japan can "strike North" - the real goal of IJA - and get the resources of Siberia and the oil of Sakhalin - and not have to ship it any great distance at the risk of submarine interception either.

As for supply sinks - it is somewhat more of a mixed bag. But the WITP design concept of supply points tied to resource centers wholly subverts the very design concept that supply points are made by industry. If we don't "eat" them - the need to feed armies in resource areas is entirely absent. And that "doesn't make any sense" IMHO either. Now there are problems. The game forces us to concentrate resources from a vast area into a few points. In principle we could make each hex a separate location, put one mine in it, and you would not have a big supply sink there to eat the supplies. But slot limits mean we have only a few points on an island like Celebes - and these have all the resources from many hexes in them - thus a big supply sink to eat them. It is not really much different from having to fight for a long time to take the whole island - hex by hex - only you seem to be fighting for Makassar and Kendari. If I designed the system, (a) we would not need the supply sinks because we would have control over supplies at resource centers (soft control) and (b) if that were overruled by boss design programmer we would have 10 times more slots to play with.
I am not in charge - we don't have that option - and so we need to work out something. The CHS solution is to grossly understate resources - which in turn helps prevent supplies from being large - and that in turn means you never have enough to really generate the HI points Japan really could generate. I see no solution here: free supplies forward, too few resources (the factor is about 11 - and at least 3 if you only count military economy), and too much free shipping since you don't have to move either the real resources or the supplies back from Japan to the field. Whatever you are doing - you are not simulating the war - which was a war over resources and autarky (economic self sufficiency) for Japan. Until Matrix separates supply points from resource centers - or gives us control over the ratio - the RHS solution is inherantly superior to ignoring these major issues. If you really disagree - don't play RHS. It is the heart of the beaste we will address logistics instead of pretending they don't matter. We have done lots of things to minimize the impacts of the sinks - including going over to support squads which are divided by 10 - planning for wrong locations which divide AV by 5 again - and using hopelessly inept officers - among other things. When we get this working right - look for the sinks to grow - right now there is a limit of 16,000 squads - and some need to be larger than that.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Bliztk

ORIGINAL: Dili

PS:Interesting Futur objective in that Unit...

The problem here is not the objetive, it`s the preparation and date. It should be 0 otherwise the supply sink gets experience

We discovered that planning at zero is not as effective (meaning ineffective) as planning at 100 for the wrong objective. That divides AV by 5. We also made it a house rule not to change the planning objective of a supply sink to its actual location. It is not allowed to be any good at defending its location in a military sense.

Note that this is not often a problem. Most supply sinks are so small you don't know they exist - often even I cannot identify them. [A supply sink can be as small as 15 squads in size - eating half of one supply point per day] Only the largest of supply sinks are present as separate units - in order to mitigate the impacts of great numbers of squads. If you have another way to 'eat supplies' I am all ears. But it takes 30 squads to eat the supply output of a single resource center! Now often we don't do that - only when the supply output is excessive do we do it. Anyway - it is the exceptional cases we are having problems with - and have taken more than a few steps to mitigate. At this time we are trying to determine if these are enough - or if more are required? But - if more steps were impossible - and if the present situation is not acceptable - we would be better off to keep the sinks than to get rid of them. Excessive supply is a problem in ALL versions of WITP - but it is THREE TIMES worse in RHS - because we have attempted to be accurate about the resources. And our model is understating the real numbers by at least 50% - this is a conservative modeling approach. To compensate for which you don't get half your AK tonnage - they carry the other 50%. That prevents "AKs to burn" - the norm in stock and CHS as I found it. Planners need to value their shipping lift - and if they don't have to use it to move supplies and resources - they are not simulating operations in the PTO. It is the "main business" of real staffs. Often intel cannot be exploited - for logistic reasons combined with time.
Awful but true.

[el cid again]

[quote]ORIGINAL: Bliztk

Yep, we are going to change the preparation points to 0 into the next iteration.

[quote]

Sorry. I forgot that we had tried that - then concluded there was something even more effective. [I think Nemo figured it out. Someone did: planning for the wrong objective impacts the final AV in the assault calculation - and by a non trivial amount. If I remember right it is divide by 5.]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Hmm..Chinese nationality certainly helps since they cannot train their exp as high as others. And setting COs with all stats to 0 (or 1) might help too ? 

Good idea - and implemented (except I think the nationality is something like Philippine) - in two forms. Supply sinks generally have Generic Allied Officer 1 (or a similar officer on the Axis side). Aside from being rated awful in his own right, the very first time this guy dies, all the other units with the same guy get the dreaded "staff officer" - who is rated 0 for everything. [IRL there is NO staff officer - just a value of 0 in every field - and code reports it as "staff officer" when it sees the 0 for officer ID] AI has not been having a lot of trouble with places that used to be awful - so it is a lot better going this way. We used nationalities that don't respawn either.

[Sardaukar]

Sounds good !

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Why just not have individual leader for every sink instead of generic ? I don't think that'd be too much work and it'd get rid of "infamous leader bug" since I don't even want to think possible effects on other leaders if "staff officers" start to appear... Even though that's supposed to be fixed.

I regard the use of this bug for supply sinks as something good, not bad. And there seem to be no ill effects - or rather all the ill effects are welcome and we wish they were even greater than they are - which is even better. It also helps prevent running out of officers - a problem when you fill slots like RHS does. Gives the game more cushion in that regard.

In other cases - there are generic officers who are DIFFERENT for each unit. See Axis (Korean) construction engineers. These officers are terrible - but they are unique - one per unit - and don't get replaced by staff officers. IRL these guys (construction engineers) were often the only ones to surrender when we overran a Japanese base. Not to be confused with Engineer Regiments or engineers organic to military units or even Road Construction engineers - who were Japanese.

[Dili]

For supply issue, i make my expeditionary units in DEI/Brunei with no update/no replacements. When a ship arrives with supplies i change that for 1-2 turns turning it back to NO after that. Still not found a good way to measure the supply arrived and the supply that is used by units in that time frame. But it's way better than  Kendari with 70000 idle troops.
Putting a supply sink just one hex at side of target would not achieve same propose?
 

[Herrbear]

Where are the British Withdrawl points for Scenario 60. Is it Aden and Melbourne or Aden and Tristan de Cunha (South Atlantic Entry)? Thanks

[el cid again]

I do not understand your suggestion in a technical sense - and I would like to.

No - a different hex has undesireable effects.

a) It requires a location be defined - wasting a whole location slot in addition to the sink slot.

b) It will not cause any damage to resouces (or HI or similar things) when the hex is taken.

c) It will not make the hex harder to take. If we have too much of this - I want some of it. Read about the miners in New Guinea, the oil field hands in NEI, and such. Taking a base hex that has real industry manned by foreigners who oppose your takeover is very different from taking an empty hex - and should not be free. I don't like tiny landing parties taking over vast areas (2600 sq miles?) for free.

In this particular case, I have reduced the sink size by 33% as a first pass correction. There surely is some food, timber and gravel here - that is supply points - and probably other things. Since small sinks are no problem - people don't even notice them - and really big ones (this isn't one - it is medium) are at places people expect a big fight - this may be a good idea. It appears that a medium sink becomes a tougher problem disproportionately to its size. That is, the bigger it is the difficulty in taking the place increases greater than linearly.

[el cid again]

Reports are uncommonly good - the only problem I have not myself detected being the one we knew would exist with a good sized supply sink.

I may have detected a problem with engine production - it may be limited to AI controlled campaigns - under analysis.
The problem is that later engines (higher device numbers) seem never to produce - so you never get any planes using them.

The Allied Tag Team leader likes to have clean scenarios - and looking at his analysis/comments I found a number of things - including

a) A missing French DL (sister already defined)
b) A missing French CL (defined in all WITP versions but not normally present - and defined on the wrong side!)
c) I finally figured out how to put a flying boat on Akitsushima (feeling a bit stupid - since we got Doolittle's bombers to work)
d) I finally figured out how to rate the Japanese command ships (also feeling dumb - AGC of course - since code will give you boosts for a commander on one of these - but only in RHS - not only because of a lack of AGCs elcewhere but also a lack of appropriately defined HQ to put on them)
e) Late war major AP production for Japan should have been AK production (in EOS) - duh again. Same steel, same engines, almost no brainer.
f) Waiting for feedback I converted all Japanese PC to two vessel elements - which is the right way to go. ASW in that era was generally ineffective if you did not have two vessels - since you lose track when DC go off.
g) Some of the suggestions did permit better slot usage or freeing up slots. The rest will create better efficiency (faster execution) - but will take time to implement.

There is enough here to warrant an update. I am waiting only to figure out the engine issue - and I have asked for help too.

[Accipiter]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I may have detected a problem with engine production - it may be limited to AI controlled campaigns - under analysis.
The problem is that later engines (higher device numbers) seem never to produce - so you never get any planes using them.

There is enough here to warrant an update. I am waiting only to figure out the engine issue - and I have asked for help too.

I've been playing RHSEOS v5.14 for the last several months and have gotten up to 10/42 so far (I'm the EOS). So far there have been absolutely no later year engines produced (I'm especially concerned about the lack of Nissan engine since they are needed starting in 10/43). My opponent looked up the scenario information and it looks like engine production isn't set to become active until 1/1944. I wasn't aware that engine factories would have a date in which they would start producing. I do not know but I think that this may be the source of this bug. I won't know for sure until 1944 rolls around. If they won't produce after 1944, our campaign is going to be fubar. I'm sure its not a question of HI as I turned off almost all other drains on HI (shipyards and non-Nissan engine production) for a turn to see if that was the problem, but the Nissan engine factory still just would not produce anything.

Aside from the engine issue almost everything else in the scenario has been running well with the exception of supply flow in China. I can not figure out why when I manually ship in 50k supply to a base 3 hexes away from Changsha, none of that supply will flow to my troops sieging that hex (even with multiple HQ and sitting there for weeks with a open road between the hexes). Supply issues there are so bad that I've just given up on any sort of offensive in China, it simply does not appear to be possible. In Burma/India Theater, I have absolutely no problem with supply flow, I have had guys sitting in Benares (I controlled everything between east of there) who'd routinely have 2x supply while on the offensive. I don't know if this something that's been fixed in subsequent versions or if it's an unintentional effect of having so many supply sinks in China (with relatively few in India).

[Dili]

I do not understand your suggestion in a technical sense

The suggestion is that it will consume the supply of the place but will not be a part of resistance to it's takeover 
 

It will not cause any damage to resouces (or HI or similar things) when the hex is taken.

Will not small enginnering party achieve that? or insert engineers in the major infantry unit?
Btw in many places in DEI assets were not sabotaged. Some were some not.
 
 

c) It will not make the hex harder to take. If we have too much of this - I want some of it. Read about the miners in New Guinea, the oil field hands in NEI, and such. Taking a base hex that has real industry manned by foreigners who oppose your takeover is very different from taking an empty hex - and should not be free. I don't like tiny landing parties taking over vast areas (2600 sq miles?) for free

 
Well that is what happened in many places historically. Like i said if Kendari needs to be taken by more than a reinforced battalion it isnt a War in Pacific, it's another what if.
Btw where i said that real combat units shouldnt be there for you to say "for free"?

[Nemo121]

Accipiter is correct.  The date into service of the engines is the date before which NONE can be produced. Obviously they should all be set to December 41 to allow for the slow production of stockpiles etc etc but in RHS ( and Empires Abaze) a couple of the later ones are set to only begin production in 1944 - Nissan engines are among these, resulting in the hobbling of Ki-44 III production throughout 1943 [:(]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Accipiter

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I may have detected a problem with engine production - it may be limited to AI controlled campaigns - under analysis.
The problem is that later engines (higher device numbers) seem never to produce - so you never get any planes using them.

There is enough here to warrant an update. I am waiting only to figure out the engine issue - and I have asked for help too.

I've been playing RHSEOS v5.14 for the last several months and have gotten up to 10/42 so far (I'm the EOS). So far there have been absolutely no later year engines produced (I'm especially concerned about the lack of Nissan engine since they are needed starting in 10/43). My opponent looked up the scenario information and it looks like engine production isn't set to become active until 1/1944. I wasn't aware that engine factories would have a date in which they would start producing. I do not know but I think that this may be the source of this bug. I won't know for sure until 1944 rolls around. If they won't produce after 1944, our campaign is going to be fubar. I'm sure its not a question of HI as I turned off almost all other drains on HI (shipyards and non-Nissan engine production) for a turn to see if that was the problem, but the Nissan engine factory still just would not produce anything.

REPLY: The date in RHS is set by the earliest date that type of engine could be produced - indicated by the planes that need it - and when they got engines going. I will however set it ahead in EOS - because better planning might have done some more investment in research. Also note that code will advance the date itself - but the cost is high - you have to produce engines that are not in production (that is, set them to produce) and get lucky (Gary loves die rolls).
You can get engines to produce after the right date - but you must conserve other HI users to do so. I will set it so this is easier than it was - but for an ongoing game - minimize aircraft, armaments, shipyards, vehicles, etc at or near your engine plant hexes. Just got it to work. Buy what you need - not what you want.

Aside from the engine issue almost everything else in the scenario has been running well with the exception of supply flow in China. I can not figure out why when I manually ship in 50k supply to a base 3 hexes away from Changsha, none of that supply will flow to my troops sieging that hex (even with multiple HQ and sitting there for weeks with a open road between the hexes). Supply issues there are so bad that I've just given up on any sort of offensive in China, it simply does not appear to be possible. In Burma/India Theater, I have absolutely no problem with supply flow, I have had guys sitting in Benares (I controlled everything between east of there) who'd routinely have 2x supply while on the offensive. I don't know if this something that's been fixed in subsequent versions or if it's an unintentional effect of having so many supply sinks in China (with relatively few in India).

REPLY: I note that in India AI loves the river - and uses it properly - at last - at least when the Allies start moving to Ledo area. It moves troops faster by boat than by land. I am not having problems - but I will issue a pwhex that will make supply in India even more efficient - having detected some "road" codes where there should be railroads. This will work on existing games - just install the new pwhex file when it comes out.