Since 2.3 is now being looked at by Rich and will be sent to Matrix Games and to you soon I am now working on Version 2.4.
Gradually you will notice that the Chinese theatre is being systematically limited, in units and bases, but remains an active front.
However, I was just pondering actually removing 90% of the Chinese land theatre. Taking away China from the game (which was not an active front until late 1944, and then so limitedly) would be beneficial in many ways.
1. It would stop the Japanese player from unhistorically winning in China by sending all sorts of troops from other theatres. It would also stop the British player from doing the same.
2. It would free up MASSIVE numbers of spaces to be used in the more important theatre of the Pacific.
By removing all LCU's, Air Units, and Land Bases (Japanese-Chinese Port bases will still be included in the game) will free up the following...
7 Japanese Land Unit Slots (7 different LCU's)
10 Japanese Air Unit Slots (10 different air groups)
11 Allied Land Unit Slots (11 different LCU's)
3 Allied Air Unit Slots (3 different air groups)
These units could free up spaces desperately needed, or create late war units, such as those that would have participated in Operation Olympic.
and most importantly...
13 Bases
These units and bases could be better served by having them as Pacific/South East Asian bases and units than in China. Bases in the South East Pacific (giving Japan the option to strike even further than just Fiji and American Samoa), the Central Pacific (making it harder for Japan to garrison all those Islands), South East Asia (making battles in Burma/India/Indo-China much longer), North and South America (possibly adding the Panama Canal, where a lot of US Port facilities would be located, simulating its importance to US shipping), etc...
What will be left in China?
Well Around 4 of the US/KMT bases will remain, Kuming, Chengtu, Chungking, Kweiyang. They will serve as bases for the battle of Northern Burma (where Chinese troops fought with the British and Americans against the Japanese 15th Army) and as bases where the USAAF could bomb Japan with B-29's. Otherwize, China will be pretty much out of the war, leaving the Pacific region as the main focus.
Any thoughts?
Querry Option for Version 2.4
I strongly support the idea of largely eliminating China from the game for all the reasons you state. It was just not an active theater and it is to easy to abuse history there.
What specific locations would you propose for the 13 additional bases?
I might be in the minority here, but I run short of space in the home Islands late in the game for all of Japans LBA. Another base or two there would help. Certainly there should be enough room in Japan to house its airforce for the end game...
What specific locations would you propose for the 13 additional bases?
I might be in the minority here, but I run short of space in the home Islands late in the game for all of Japans LBA. Another base or two there would help. Certainly there should be enough room in Japan to house its airforce for the end game...
What an awesome idea <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I have always thought that the Chinese theater was useless in the game....and as you say an area that can be horribly abused.
13 new areas....well what about adding a few more Japanese home island ones....there is never enough airfield space. Though adding to the home island...would that affect the points?
As for adding areas such as Panama....I would also look at adding Vancouver <being a good little Canadian I cannot resist temptation>
I would also look at perhaps adding some more in the Guadacanal area....with little or no air or port facilities...but giving the oportunity of building up more defenses.
Keep up the good work Major Tom <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I have always thought that the Chinese theater was useless in the game....and as you say an area that can be horribly abused.
13 new areas....well what about adding a few more Japanese home island ones....there is never enough airfield space. Though adding to the home island...would that affect the points?
As for adding areas such as Panama....I would also look at adding Vancouver <being a good little Canadian I cannot resist temptation>
I would also look at perhaps adding some more in the Guadacanal area....with little or no air or port facilities...but giving the oportunity of building up more defenses.
Keep up the good work Major Tom <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
-
LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4908
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Good idea. I was thinking along the same lines. In my own obc-version I have thinned out China and southern Australia a little bit and have added bases in Burma (Moulmein, Myitkyina), Sumatra (Madang) and the SoPac (Russell Is., Ellice Is.) instead.
I have also experimented with a 'Panama Canal'-base, but got second thoughts about it when I managed to sneak in (playing Japanese in PBEM), capturing the base and permanently destroying the repair and factory facilities I had edited into this base. Simply by capturing the Canal Zone the Japanese won't have destroyed the East Coast facilities, so putting repair shops and factories there in PW seemed to be an invitation to abuse the game mechanics. A Canal base without facilities was pretty much useless, so I deleted it again. Without East Coast bases and a 'door'-function of the Canal base, I see no real need for this base.
Nevertheless, more bases and freed LCU-slots sounds good. Other bases I would like to see are Howland Is. and Baker Is., Finschhafen and some more atolls in the Marshalls. Some LCU-slots may be used to create more USMC Defense BN, historically there were a lot more in the PTO, and in PW they are very useful to garrison rear bases.
LST
I have also experimented with a 'Panama Canal'-base, but got second thoughts about it when I managed to sneak in (playing Japanese in PBEM), capturing the base and permanently destroying the repair and factory facilities I had edited into this base. Simply by capturing the Canal Zone the Japanese won't have destroyed the East Coast facilities, so putting repair shops and factories there in PW seemed to be an invitation to abuse the game mechanics. A Canal base without facilities was pretty much useless, so I deleted it again. Without East Coast bases and a 'door'-function of the Canal base, I see no real need for this base.
Nevertheless, more bases and freed LCU-slots sounds good. Other bases I would like to see are Howland Is. and Baker Is., Finschhafen and some more atolls in the Marshalls. Some LCU-slots may be used to create more USMC Defense BN, historically there were a lot more in the PTO, and in PW they are very useful to garrison rear bases.
LST
-
Blackhorse
- Posts: 1415
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Eastern US
Excellent idea! I'm delighted to see you working to phase out China -- which Pacwar models poorly -- to improve the rest of the game.Originally posted by Major Tom:
What will be left in China?
Well Around 4 of the US/KMT bases will remain, Kuming, Chengtu, Chungking, Kweiyang. They will serve as bases for the battle of Northern Burma (where Chinese troops fought with the British and Americans against the Japanese 15th Army) and as bases where the USAAF could bomb Japan with B-29's. Otherwize, China will be pretty much out of the war, leaving the Pacific region as the main focus.
Any thoughts?
Every solution creates some new challenges, of course. Here are two issues I hope you can address / mitigate:
1. Baseless Attacks. IRL, once China-based B29s started attacking Japan, the IJA overran their bases. Since China-based heavy bombers had no real impact on the war, might it not be better to eliminate all of Inland China? -- the 2 Chinese divisions that fought in Burma could be based in Lashio.
2. The Empty City. If the IJA Chinese Expeditionary Army (CEA) is eliminated, how will Chinese coastal cities be garrisoned to prevent a late-war Allied invasion? I'd recommend leaving a strong CEA division or army in each port, even at the cost of creating new IJA units.
Ideas for new bases? -- I'm fairly satisfied with the mix of islands in the game. I'd use new bases to add "depth" to Japan, India, Australia and (lowest priority) the American West Coast.
Keep up your most excellent work!
WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Tom,
I am unsure of your idea though I support eliminating/reworking China. Kwangtang is also useless! I personally hate not being able to change the air groups of china and kwangtang anyway.
My problem with creating more bases such as Panama is with the AI. Will the AI actually be able to deal with the new inputs? Would a jap AI ever make a play for Panama or other bases not in the original versions? Would the AI attack a base called X in the solomons if it's just created or would it fail to recognize it? Same for an Allied AI.
Can a base be added that 'solves' the crummy "can never auto resupply Rangoon and Dacca bases" problem?
Hisotically the Japs got to Imphal and Kohima. Can bases in India/burma be reworked to reflect the fighting there?
Do we really need more units? Slots for breakdowns might be just as welcome. Also, we don't need every type of A/C in this game. I don't use all of them anyway and often change production to the more useful types.
By the way, can you tell me how to edit my own OBC files? Do I call up the Dos prompt and use edit or something like that? I'd like to experiment a little myself.
Just some ideas. Let's hope the new PACWAR game will be published soon!
Gary
I am unsure of your idea though I support eliminating/reworking China. Kwangtang is also useless! I personally hate not being able to change the air groups of china and kwangtang anyway.
My problem with creating more bases such as Panama is with the AI. Will the AI actually be able to deal with the new inputs? Would a jap AI ever make a play for Panama or other bases not in the original versions? Would the AI attack a base called X in the solomons if it's just created or would it fail to recognize it? Same for an Allied AI.
Can a base be added that 'solves' the crummy "can never auto resupply Rangoon and Dacca bases" problem?
Hisotically the Japs got to Imphal and Kohima. Can bases in India/burma be reworked to reflect the fighting there?
Do we really need more units? Slots for breakdowns might be just as welcome. Also, we don't need every type of A/C in this game. I don't use all of them anyway and often change production to the more useful types.
By the way, can you tell me how to edit my own OBC files? Do I call up the Dos prompt and use edit or something like that? I'd like to experiment a little myself.
Just some ideas. Let's hope the new PACWAR game will be published soon!
Gary
-
Blackhorse
- Posts: 1415
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Eastern US
My $0.02 on Islands . . .
Consider adding Cocos (Keeling) Island, about 1000nm south of Sumatra. Its a nice way-point between Australia and India for the British after the Japanese capture the NEI.
What about eliminating Marcus Island? In the game, Marcus is a dagger pointing at the heart of Japan -- the shortest route for the Americans to "island-hop" to the Home Islands, bypassing Saipan and the Marianas. IRL, the U.S. made only a few insignificant carrier raids against the island, and AFAIK, never even considered an invasion. I suspect that the size/terrain of the island made it impossible to build airbases for heavy bombers (level 4 in the game). If Marcus could not have been a practical bomber base, then it shouldn't be in the game.
But I'm just speculating here . . . does anyone have some hard facts on Marcus?
Consider adding Cocos (Keeling) Island, about 1000nm south of Sumatra. Its a nice way-point between Australia and India for the British after the Japanese capture the NEI.
What about eliminating Marcus Island? In the game, Marcus is a dagger pointing at the heart of Japan -- the shortest route for the Americans to "island-hop" to the Home Islands, bypassing Saipan and the Marianas. IRL, the U.S. made only a few insignificant carrier raids against the island, and AFAIK, never even considered an invasion. I suspect that the size/terrain of the island made it impossible to build airbases for heavy bombers (level 4 in the game). If Marcus could not have been a practical bomber base, then it shouldn't be in the game.
But I'm just speculating here . . . does anyone have some hard facts on Marcus?
WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
What will the AI do to these bases?
Well, if a former Kwantung/CEA base is captured by the Japanese, or starts off as Japanese, no matter what HQ it starts off with, or is captured by, it will return to Kwantung/CEA. I think the same will happen with Nationalist Chinese bases, but it does not happen with ANZAC bases.
What could I do with these bases?
I could replace other bases (ie US North Pacific/Alaska, Southern Australia, Indian) that are far from the front lines and ones that the AI will never reach.
What I noticed about bases is that if they are empty, and in the AI's field of control they will invade. However, if there are enemy LCU's there, then they will merely bypass the base. HOWEVER, sometimes this can be 'overcome'. I created Moulemien (in version 2.3) from an Australian base (Hobart, I think), I had the 16th Indian Brigade garrisoning it, and since it was on the way to Rangoon (ie. the 15th Army AI was hardcoded to attack Rangoon) Moulemien was invaded, purely because in order to reach Rangoon they had to go through it. So, playtesting can see which bases work at certain places.
Thanks for the ideas for bases.
Well, if a former Kwantung/CEA base is captured by the Japanese, or starts off as Japanese, no matter what HQ it starts off with, or is captured by, it will return to Kwantung/CEA. I think the same will happen with Nationalist Chinese bases, but it does not happen with ANZAC bases.
What could I do with these bases?
I could replace other bases (ie US North Pacific/Alaska, Southern Australia, Indian) that are far from the front lines and ones that the AI will never reach.
What I noticed about bases is that if they are empty, and in the AI's field of control they will invade. However, if there are enemy LCU's there, then they will merely bypass the base. HOWEVER, sometimes this can be 'overcome'. I created Moulemien (in version 2.3) from an Australian base (Hobart, I think), I had the 16th Indian Brigade garrisoning it, and since it was on the way to Rangoon (ie. the 15th Army AI was hardcoded to attack Rangoon) Moulemien was invaded, purely because in order to reach Rangoon they had to go through it. So, playtesting can see which bases work at certain places.
Thanks for the ideas for bases.
While I totally love the idea of eliminating most of the Chinese and Korean bases along with most of the Chinese and Japanese armies and air units in China, Manchuria, and Korea, I worry that many problems would crop up with hardcoding. If that could be worked around, then I think this version 2.4 idea would be magnificent.
My votes for new bases, in order of priority:
1. Burma area.
2. India and the Indian Ocean (too easy to knock out the British without more room to play there).
3. South Pacific (aggressive Japanese drive there can effectively cut off Australia, not too realistic in my opinion given the depth of possible islan bases in So.Pac.).
Freeing up more ACU and LCU slots would be great, but air and land attrition in China would need to be accounted for in the production system so that all the stuff that went into China on both sides didn't just end up elsewhere.
My votes for new bases, in order of priority:
1. Burma area.
2. India and the Indian Ocean (too easy to knock out the British without more room to play there).
3. South Pacific (aggressive Japanese drive there can effectively cut off Australia, not too realistic in my opinion given the depth of possible islan bases in So.Pac.).
Freeing up more ACU and LCU slots would be great, but air and land attrition in China would need to be accounted for in the production system so that all the stuff that went into China on both sides didn't just end up elsewhere.
-
LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4908
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
I doubt that there were any sizeable reinforcements available to the PI Army or the Dutch. AFAIK, the Philippine reservists were already mobilized at the start of hostilities. Any later reinforcements of manpower would have to infiltrate through Japanese lines in order to reach friendly forces. The only reinforcements of weapons and ammo were limited amounts carried by submarines - this cannot be simulated in PW. Some guerilla-type units would be nice (receive reinforcements, cannot be destroyed or forced to surrender), but I don't think this can be done in PW. The Dutch manpower in England must have been small (since the Dutch Army surrendered without a Dunkirk-type evacuation) and priority for equipping and transferring them to the PTO been low. And what difference would reinforcements make in the first place? The PI Army or the Dutch cannot hold out without support by other ground forces anyway. In PW, a Dutch Brigade (in 'Australian colors') gets activated in 44, simulating remnants of the East Indies garrison and eventual reinforcements from England. I think that's good enough for a strategic simulation.
LST
LST
As far as Panama goes, There is a huge potential for what could be done if it is attacked or put out of business for a short time. The movement of ships and materials would have an affect on the allied player. The Japanese did build the I-400 class subs to go to the canal and bomb the locks. They were built to carry 3 floatplanes for that purpose. But late in the war they were used as supply subs.
I don`t know about the interworkings of the game just know that if the locks were damaged then the CV`s would have to go around South America.
I don`t know about the interworkings of the game just know that if the locks were damaged then the CV`s would have to go around South America.
-
LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4908
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Re bases: What about another base between Moulmein and Bangkok (named Kanchanaburi or Three Pagoda Pass) and splitting the path north of Rangoon into A) an inland way via Mandalay-Imphal to Dimapur, with branches from Mandalay to Lashio and Myikyina and from Imphal respectively Dimapur to Dacca (and Dimaput-Myitkyina); and B) a coastal route via Akyab (Sittwe) and Chittagong to Dacca. Would make the Burma area much more interesting.
In a test-obc I have also created Sendai and Hiroshima on the home islands (and renamed Sasebo into Nagasaki, so the historical places can be nuked - okay, for some people this may go too far, but playing wargames for pleasure is odd anyway <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . Sendai and Hiroshima received some air groups and factories from other bases and the shipyards from Truk and Port Arthur - if Australia has no shipyards, than why Truk or Korea?
Since I left only five bases in China under Peanut's control plus Kunming under North CAC, while the Japanese have only coastal cities left (with an army in each), there were still enough base slots left to create Cam Ranh Bay between Haiphong and Saigon (with a size 6 port, and ships and LCU transferred from Saigon), Salamaua (linked with paths to Lae and Buna) on PNG, as well as Choiseul, Santa Isabela and Malaita in the Solomons. Perhaps I will again change the Solomons setup in favor for some other weird ideas I have in mind, let's see.
I'm currently playtesting the new arrangements. So far ex-China/Kwangtung bases have not reverted to their old HQs, neither under player control nor with everything under full computer control (in a human vs. human game). I'm not yet sure about the effects on the strategic plans of the AI, perhaps I'll have to switch some bases.
LST
In a test-obc I have also created Sendai and Hiroshima on the home islands (and renamed Sasebo into Nagasaki, so the historical places can be nuked - okay, for some people this may go too far, but playing wargames for pleasure is odd anyway <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . Sendai and Hiroshima received some air groups and factories from other bases and the shipyards from Truk and Port Arthur - if Australia has no shipyards, than why Truk or Korea?
Since I left only five bases in China under Peanut's control plus Kunming under North CAC, while the Japanese have only coastal cities left (with an army in each), there were still enough base slots left to create Cam Ranh Bay between Haiphong and Saigon (with a size 6 port, and ships and LCU transferred from Saigon), Salamaua (linked with paths to Lae and Buna) on PNG, as well as Choiseul, Santa Isabela and Malaita in the Solomons. Perhaps I will again change the Solomons setup in favor for some other weird ideas I have in mind, let's see.
I'm currently playtesting the new arrangements. So far ex-China/Kwangtung bases have not reverted to their old HQs, neither under player control nor with everything under full computer control (in a human vs. human game). I'm not yet sure about the effects on the strategic plans of the AI, perhaps I'll have to switch some bases.
LST
Just in case you do not know, a great way in testing out how the bases work is to play AI vs. AI. If neither of the AI's can handle the new bases while fighting one another, then you can be pretty sure that you will have to do some changes. However, playing Human vs. AI will be good since you will do things neither AI would be willing to do.
However, these bases will work very good in a PBEM game. I do have a separate OBC41 for PBEM players, one that can have a much more complicated map and OOB than those where an AI is required.
However, these bases will work very good in a PBEM game. I do have a separate OBC41 for PBEM players, one that can have a much more complicated map and OOB than those where an AI is required.
-
LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4908
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Thanks for the hint, Major Tom. I have run AI vs. AI playtest in the past, switching the monitor off over night. But just to make sure I wanted to know step-by-step what moves both AIs make, check force deployments, assignment of leaders etc. and problems that might temporarily affect one side or the other during the game, like a late start in invading certain bases, or inability to make progress in places which fell more easily in the real war (once I over-edited the experience and entrenchment levels of Brit units in Rangoon, and the Japanese AI was never able to capture it - looking just at the end screen of the AI vs. AI game in 1945 I would have assumed that the Brits had recaptured Rangoon, instead of never losing it).
Of course one can interrupt the computer players to have a look at the mess the AI is doing, but I think that a human vs. human game with all options (HQs, production, subs) on full computer control is pretty much the same as a real AI vs. AI game, but is easier to survey and keep track of.
Separate obc files for PBEM and solo play are a very good idea. Editing a game with solo play in mind requires a lot more understanding of the game mechanics. A list of 'bases assigned as targets to each HQ' would be one of the most helpful tools in this regard. Keep up the good work! I'm waiting for your changes to Japanese LCUs and air groups in v2.3 - I don't have much expertise in this area.
Greetings,
LST
P.S.:
B.t.w., on another international forum I have seen a spellchecker built-in on the 'post a reply' section. This might be helpful on this page here for people like me who are not English language native speakers. I spend so much time filing through my trusty old dictionary... Forums are a great way to practice language skills, by pointing out mistakes with a spellchecker they could also help to improve them.
Of course one can interrupt the computer players to have a look at the mess the AI is doing, but I think that a human vs. human game with all options (HQs, production, subs) on full computer control is pretty much the same as a real AI vs. AI game, but is easier to survey and keep track of.
Separate obc files for PBEM and solo play are a very good idea. Editing a game with solo play in mind requires a lot more understanding of the game mechanics. A list of 'bases assigned as targets to each HQ' would be one of the most helpful tools in this regard. Keep up the good work! I'm waiting for your changes to Japanese LCUs and air groups in v2.3 - I don't have much expertise in this area.
Greetings,
LST
P.S.:
B.t.w., on another international forum I have seen a spellchecker built-in on the 'post a reply' section. This might be helpful on this page here for people like me who are not English language native speakers. I spend so much time filing through my trusty old dictionary... Forums are a great way to practice language skills, by pointing out mistakes with a spellchecker they could also help to improve them.
-
Blackhorse
- Posts: 1415
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Eastern US
No. Major Tom has finished the v2.3 design -- now it has been sent upstairs to Matrix' Loyal Order of Water Buffalos where v2.3 will be blessed by the Grand Poohbah performing a series of arcane incantations and obscure rites while blanketed in a thick cloud of incense. Only then can v2.3 be released.Originally posted by Mike Kraemer:
Did I miss something is 2.3 out yet???
WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
Perhaps if we sacrificed a goat by the light of a full moon we could help the process along!No. Major Tom has finished the v2.3 design -- now it has been sent upstairs to Matrix' Loyal Order of Water Buffalos where v2.3 will be blessed by the Grand Poohbah performing a series of arcane incantations and obscure rites while blanketed in a thick cloud of incense. Only then can v2.3 be released.
As far as reducing the China theater to enhance game play elsewhere, sounds good to me!
You can run but you'll die tired!
I really hope to see an airbase on the Indian mainland between Ceylon and Calcutta that would be able to attack any Japanese invasions of Ceylon or Calcutta. There may not be room on the map to have a base to represent the west coast of India, which would be a nice place to put the factories and bring in the reinforcements.