Why you don't launch at dusk

[themattcurtis]

Folks having been reporting on their experiences playing the Coral Sea scenario. Just wanted to offer this paragraph from John Toland's "The Rising Sun":
"Takagi, aboard a heavy cruiser, signaled Rear Admiral Tadaichi Hara, commander of the two carriers: CAN YOU LAUNCH A NIGHT AIR ATTACK? Hara signaled back from Zuikaku that he was prepared to send twenty-seven planes. They took off just before dusk but found nothing. On the way back, however, they were set upon by a group of Fletcher's fighters. Nine Japanese were shot down; the others dispersed and tried to make their way home in the dark. One cluster of six eventually found a carrier and let down to join the other planes in the landing pattern. As the first Japanese skimmed the deck, landing hook extended, he was blasted over the side with a hail of gunfire. The carrier was Yorktown."

The book is a single volume piece on the entire Pacific theatre. But it's thick, and it has some great narrative descriptions of naval battles (both air and surface).

Anyway, I just thought it was good little anecdote, and appropriate.

Thanks!
Matt

[LarryP]

976 pages. I have that book on my Amazon.com wish list. Good anecdote. Is that book full of good material such as that?

Thanks for sharing that, as I am working the Coral Sea scenario with fervor. [&o]

[themattcurtis]

Oh yeah, here's a great bit about the Japanese immediate reaction to gettin their asses kicked at Midway.

Kusaka is aboard the Nagara. A Captain Oishi, who helped plan Pearl Harbor, is in hysterics as the Kaga burns to the south. Oishi announces he wants to commit suicide, and the staff agrees with him -- the disgrace is more than they can stand.

Kusaka explodes into a rage, and yells:
"Assemble all the other idiots in the staff room."

The book continues..

(Kusaka) was carried down the passageway in his white hospital gown to confront the staff. "You men cheer when the battle is successful. When it isn't, you threaten hari-kari. You're acting like hysterical women." They faced a long war and he forbade "such nonsense."

I think it's a great quote. Kusaka apparently hunted down Nagumo to make sure he wasn't planning anything similarly stupid.

[Temple]

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis
Just wanted to offer this paragraph from John Toland's "The Rising Sun":...

The book is a single volume piece on the entire Pacific theatre. But it's thick, and it has some great narrative descriptions of naval battles (both air and surface).

It also has appeared as a two volume edition, that's the one I have.

[Gregor_SSG]

I should also add that in CAW terms, unless your squadron is night trained, your chance of finding something is slight, the chances of hitting it minimal, and your chance of damage, especially on landing is greatly increased, even when attempting to land on your own carrier.

Gregor

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis

Folks having been reporting on their experiences playing the Coral Sea scenario. Just wanted to offer this paragraph from John Toland's "The Rising Sun":
"Takagi, aboard a heavy cruiser, signaled Rear Admiral Tadaichi Hara, commander of the two carriers: CAN YOU LAUNCH A NIGHT AIR ATTACK? Hara signaled back from Zuikaku that he was prepared to send twenty-seven planes. They took off just before dusk but found nothing. On the way back, however, they were set upon by a group of Fletcher's fighters. Nine Japanese were shot down; the others dispersed and tried to make their way home in the dark. One cluster of six eventually found a carrier and let down to join the other planes in the landing pattern. As the first Japanese skimmed the deck, landing hook extended, he was blasted over the side with a hail of gunfire. The carrier was Yorktown."

The book is a single volume piece on the entire Pacific theatre. But it's thick, and it has some great narrative descriptions of naval battles (both air and surface).

Anyway, I just thought it was good little anecdote, and appropriate.

Thanks!
Matt

Matt... I just got this book today! My wife heard me reading what you posted and she wrote down the name and got it for Fathers Day\Birthday. Same dang day this year. [:-]

[themattcurtis]

Well, congrats on the book [:)], even though it stinks when B-days fall too close to a gift-giving holiday......

It's a great book. Doesn't cover new ground in terms of the events covered, but it does offer a different perspective on the war. The first few chapters alone gave me a better understanding of how Japan came to war with China in the first place. The Marco Polo bridge. The Control Clique versus the Imperial Way believers. How the Japanese Army officer behind the expansion into Manchuria actually envisioned a sort of utopia where all sorts of races and nationalities could live in harmony (and as a buffer to Soviet Russia).

[walterlzw]

Read Toland's book, too. The Manchurian faction of the Japanese Army happen to be responsible for most of the attrocities in China. I guess lofty ideals and big guns don't mix.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis

Well, congrats on the book [:)], even though it stinks when B-days fall too close to a gift-giving holiday......

It's a great book. Doesn't cover new ground in terms of the events covered, but it does offer a different perspective on the war. The first few chapters alone gave me a better understanding of how Japan came to war with China in the first place. The Marco Polo bridge. The Control Clique versus the Imperial Way believers. How the Japanese Army officer behind the expansion into Manchuria actually envisioned a sort of utopia where all sorts of races and nationalities could live in harmony (and as a buffer to Soviet Russia).

I hated history in school. However, I have liked it more since I started playing wargames about thirteen years ago. So a lot of what I read is a "WOW, that's like in the game!"

She also got me a little book "The Pacific War Companion: From Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima." Edited by Daniel Marston. Chapter 5 "The Height Of Folly, The Battles of The Coral Sea and Midway" is exactly what the Coral Sea scenario is like in CAW. It names the ships and carriers that I am working with and against. I find that pretty cool! I previously played these type games without any history linkage, but I like it much better this way. It makes more sense.

I have wondered what got the Japanese so ticked off to hit Pearl harbor the way they did. Now it's making sense as I read Rising Sun, but I am still in the 1rst chapter. Looooong ways to go! Thanks for pushing me to get it, well, my eavesdropping wife that is. [;)]

[NimitsTexan]

ORIGINAL: walterlzw

Read Toland's book, too. The Manchurian faction of the Japanese Army happen to be responsible for most of the attrocities in China. I guess lofty ideals and big guns don't mix.

Toland is too much of an apologist for the Japanese cause for my opinion. He tends to understate Japanese atrocities and tries to argue that only a small faction of the Japanese military combined with some misunderstood orders are responsible for those atrocities, arguements that do not really ring true to history.

[LarryP]

I thought the Japanese were known quite well for their atrocities without Toland's help. What do I know though.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Atrocities, notwithstanding, happy birthday DUDE!!!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[walterlzw]

Think you're right, Nimits, about Toland's treatment of Japanese attrocities. Nevertheless its a good source for Japanese point of view. I believe truth cannot be reproduced in any single volume. As soon as I finished Rising Sun I move on to other books that focus on more specific subjects.

A little off topic, but I believe that history is not about truth, but versions of truth. Truth is an impossibility considering human limitations. We can't be everywhere at anytime. Our means of perception are often distorted. Having said that I don't believe in truth in history, I do believe that there are lies.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Atrocities, notwithstanding, happy birthday DUDE!!!

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

Thanks!! That's a surprise... 52 though, OUCH!

Rising Sun is done from the Japanese point of view so if it is a bit skewed (I don't know if it is as I just started the book) then it makes sense. Toland sure is telling me some weird stuff the Japanese culture did in the 1920's. Massive rebel uprising within the government, navy, and other military.

[themattcurtis]

35 looms ahead for me (3 months). And looms wouldn't even be the word I use except my boys (4 and 7) are just AMAZED to hear that a lot of my grade school teachers aren't dead[:D]

Yesterday the woman told me to go ahead and buy myself something for Father's Day, to supplement the Ohio State wallet the dudes bought me ......NOT a Buckeye, so I have their grandpa to thank for that[:@].....and I got a copy of Carrier Clash at the local Barnes. Still grateful that I fooled someone like her into stayin' with me. She doesn't even CARE that I play around on the PC since I limit it to when she's chugging along on her elleptical. I can't make myself use that thing. Guys should stick to weights.

So far, my Pacifc War library is sorta slim.

I have a big, single volume book with a generic-ish title I can't recall off the top of my head: The Pacific War: 1941 to 1945 or (something like that). A good broad brush treatment, though.
The Burma Road
Toland's Rising Sun
Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors
Carrier Clash
Sea of Thunder

And that's it. Course, I've checked out stuff from the library, but I like OWNING books for some reason. I can re-read my stuff. I'm happier with my Russo-Japanese War books, as it's harder to track down decent treatments of that conflict.

[LarryP]

Your grade school teachers are my age! [:)] Now MY teachers could be dead by now. [&:] Thirty-five is a good age, things still function as they should and your joints (knees, fingers, that kind) should still be pain free and fully functional. [:D]

Never heard of an elleptical? I hope she stays on it for long periods of time if that's only when you can play games. My wife is excellent in that way. If I told you how she is with gaming I would get most of the viewers ticked off and jealous. Some days I have to hit myself to see if I am dreaming when she tells me to "play a game."

That one book you named Sea Of Thunder is also one she got me the same time. It's a hardcover too. I haven't read any of that yet or even looked inside. Have you read that one and if so is it good?

[themattcurtis]

It's a good study of the profiled officers. And I can't read enough about Leyte Gulf.

[Panther Bait]

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis

Well, congrats on the book [:)], even though it stinks when B-days fall too close to a gift-giving holiday......

It's a great book. Doesn't cover new ground in terms of the events covered, but it does offer a different perspective on the war. The first few chapters alone gave me a better understanding of how Japan came to war with China in the first place. The Marco Polo bridge. The Control Clique versus the Imperial Way believers. How the Japanese Army officer behind the expansion into Manchuria actually envisioned a sort of utopia where all sorts of races and nationalities could live in harmony (and as a buffer to Soviet Russia).

The Japanese version of utopia usually involved only those people who were willing to do exactly what the Japanese wanted them to do. Any resistance to the envisioned utopia was typically violently suppressed.

If you are looking for some other good reads on the Pacific War, particularly on the naval battles, I would suggest the History of the United States Naval Operation in the World War II series by Samuel Morison. More than half of the 14 or 15 volumes involve the Pacific War. Very thorough examinations of the primary battles, although being written in the 1940's and 1950's, some of the information in them is a little dated. I am currently reading the volume on the battles around Guadalcanal right now, including the Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz battles.

Shattered Sword is supposed to be an excellent book on Midway itself, providing a lot of new information from the Japanese side and refuting some of the earlier accounts of the battle. I have it, but have not read it yet.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis

It's a good study of the profiled officers. And I can't read enough about Leyte Gulf.

I just read some of it this afternoon and it is an easier read than Rising Sun. [:)] It seems really good!

Leyte Gulf: Biggest naval war in history. I didn't know that before today.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

The Japanese version of utopia usually involved only those people who were willing to do exactly what the Japanese wanted them to do. Any resistance to the envisioned utopia was typically violently suppressed.

If you are looking for some other good reads on the Pacific War, particularly on the naval battles, I would suggest the History of the United States Naval Operation in the World War II series by Samuel Morison. More than half of the 14 or 15 volumes involve the Pacific War. Very thorough examinations of the primary battles, although being written in the 1940's and 1950's, some of the information in them is a little dated. I am currently reading the volume on the battles around Guadalcanal right now, including the Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz battles.

Shattered Sword is supposed to be an excellent book on Midway itself, providing a lot of new information from the Japanese side and refuting some of the earlier accounts of the battle. I have it, but have not read it yet.

I wrote these books down. Thanks! I will check on them online. It seems like I saw the series in one of my History or Armchair General magazines and they were quite expensive. Bunch of books though and hardcover.