Modifying Artillery stats

[Dgold]

I am playing the WW I scenario and, like some previous posts that I have seen, find Artillery too powerful against Infantry in terms of kills and retreats. Artillery should mostly reduce the effectiveness of defenders to soften them up for a following infantry attack. It should also reduce the defending terrain effects for cities and fortifications.

In the editor (for this scenario) there are several attack factors for Artillery:
Kill% - 6
Retreat% - 8
Attack power vs Inf: 100

Is there any way to modify the Artillery factors so that the targeted enemy units lose mostly effectiveness, rather than killing and retreating so many enemy assets? If there is no way to do this, of the above attack factors, which is the best to edit to get the most realistic combat result? I don't want to reduce Artillery's attack value vs. towns and fortifications (if indeed this can be set separately from the attack values vs combat troops).

Thanks for any help.

[seille]

Lol, and you play probably the version Tom already reduced the amounts of artillery.

Unfortunately from my experience reduced readiness is not always a guarantee for smaller losses when you attack this unit.
Sometimes i had terrible losses in there attacks even i prepared by artillery (not enough) and most of the infantry had no readiness bars
left. In the following ground attack i lost more than the enemy.

So i´m not a fan of "reduced readiness" as a main effect of artillery. Just because these reduced readiness
often doesn´t mean that unit is neutralized for the coming combat. Often it seems still to fight very well.
Massive artillery fire has to make a good effect. It´s also a question of gun numbers and tech level. My german artillery III
is of course much more powerful than serb artillery I. 

[Xenomath]

Artillery already does much more readiness damage than killing damage.
The % missing to 100% after subtracting kill% and retreat% is pure readiness and entrenchment damage.
So after hitting successfully 86% of the time Artillery only damages the effectiveness, while all other units do this only 50% of the time (they have 25% in kill and retreat).

Just wanted to make sure you are aware of that.

[Dgold]

ORIGINAL: Xenomath

Artillery already does much more readiness damage than killing damage.
The % missing to 100% after subtracting kill% and retreat% is pure readiness and entrenchment damage.
So after hitting successfully 86% of the time Artillery only damages the effectiveness, while all other units do this only 50% of the time (they have 25% in kill and retreat).

Just wanted to make sure you are aware of that.

Thanks - didn't know that - it helps to read the Editor section of the manual!

Even with the low kill and retreat percentages noted above, I still see a lot of kills and retreats.
Perhaps the best thing to do is either edit the number of Artillery attacks made per round (4), or the Attack Points vs Infantry (100)
Will these edits negatively affect the combat model?

Thanks.

[seille]

ORIGINAL: Dgold
Will these edits negatively affect the combat model?

I think yes. Artillery would be less useful and land attacks would be MUCH harder.
The artillery as it is now (same for planes) has been balanced over a long time in many many games.
It always felt good even powerful.
Artillery is made for doing that hard damage in artillery attacks. That´s the only reason why to use it.
It´s an expensive weapon (in buying/supply consumption/upgrades) and very vulnerable to direct attacks.
I would not produce it when it doesn´t longer open the dor for a ground attack.

But there are many factors decide how powerful artillery attacks are.
I just had two artillery (each 4 guns) attacks + airstrike of 10 planes to a german engineer unit hear Helsinki in a PBEM.
I killed only 11 engineers during these attacks. One artillery attack killed two engineers and made about 10 retreating.
I can´t see where these effect is too hard. Lol, i really wished to hit them HARDER this way [;)]

I hope the current masterfile wil be untouched and new unit settings or new types of units wil come as
Mods/new masterfiles player can choose to play.
At least i´ll make a backup of my original masterfile now.....

[Axeking]

Several values combine to determine the effectiveness.

Kill% and Retreat% determine what fraction of the time a _hit_ will kill or retreat. The rest of the time, a hit will cause readiness and entrenchment loss.

The Attack strength vs various target types (as displayed) is divided by the number of attacks to determine the actual strength of a single "attack sub round". This modified strength is then used as a base and modified by many other things (check a combat log to get an idea). This results in the final attack strength.

The Hit points of the target unit is also modifed in a number of ways, resulting in a final defense strength. Rife units in average condition will have a final defense strength of 150 -250 depending on the supply, morale, experience of the target.

With the default settings, an artillery I will get 4x 100 point attacks per combat round (with typical final strength being around 50-100, depending on the terrain.

In theory (I haven't confirmed it yet), a 100 point attack vs a 150 point defense has a 40% chance of scoring a hit in each combat sub round (and since it has 4 attacks, there are 4 subrounds).
(I think the hit chance = final atk/(final atk+final def), but it could also be final atk/final def).

To make it less effective, you could cut the number of attacks in half, while also making the attack strength 50% lower (so sub round attacks stay the same stength, you just get fewer). You could also just lower the strength, getting lower odds of a hit. Or reduce the kill and retreat % to make more attacks have less permanent effects...

Personally, I haven't seen artillery be that overpowering yet. And if someone is using it too much, send in some dive bombers. It won't last long... [:)]

[rickier65]

I havent really played enough to form an opinion yet, but wasn't Artillery the main cause of casualties in WWII? At least in Europe? Seems like I read stats a few years agao and was surprised at the percnetage of causalties caused by Art, vs all other causes.

with the modeling routine Vic programmed that runs 100 combats over a battle from editor, maybe someone more knowledgeable, or someone concerned about over powerful Art, could run some simulations and compare to historical percentages.

(Sounds testers gave some thought to this subject and ended up where it is now but hey, its modifiable).

Just a thought.

Rick

[freeboy]

well, we all lament hte losses to our forces caused by air and art attacks, but the single greatest loss of troops was to ART fire.. I think Air should be sevearly toned down against INF and uped against armor, and art severely toned down agaisnt armor and is fine against non fortified infantry. fortified troops are ok, but maybe the scenario designers can make more forts? fort level one two three etc?

[Willburn]

ORIGINAL: rlnonay

Several values combine to determine the effectiveness.

Kill% and Retreat% determine what fraction of the time a _hit_ will kill or retreat. The rest of the time, a hit will cause readiness and entrenchment loss.

The Attack strength vs various target types (as displayed) is divided by the number of attacks to determine the actual strength of a single "attack sub round". This modified strength is then used as a base and modified by many other things (check a combat log to get an idea). This results in the final attack strength.

The Hit points of the target unit is also modifed in a number of ways, resulting in a final defense strength. Rife units in average condition will have a final defense strength of 150 -250 depending on the supply, morale, experience of the target.

With the default settings, an artillery I will get 4x 100 point attacks per combat round (with typical final strength being around 50-100, depending on the terrain.

In theory (I haven't confirmed it yet), a 100 point attack vs a 150 point defense has a 40% chance of scoring a hit in each combat sub round (and since it has 4 attacks, there are 4 subrounds).
(I think the hit chance = final atk/(final atk+final def), but it could also be final atk/final def).

To make it less effective, you could cut the number of attacks in half, while also making the attack strength 50% lower (so sub round attacks stay the same stength, you just get fewer). You could also just lower the strength, getting lower odds of a hit. Or reduce the kill and retreat % to make more attacks have less permanent effects...

Personally, I haven't seen artillery be that overpowering yet. And if someone is using it too much, send in some dive bombers. It won't last long... [:)]

Im having a discussion on the combat engine in another thread. Would appriciate your feedback on it since you seem to have your own ideas on it. I used to think it was final atk / final def but that doesnt seem to add up odds wise. Just run the numbers a lot of times and see how it devides up statistically. Here is the thread btw : tm.asp?m=1604539