PzC Game Engine: Popular Embrace?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

This might surprise some of our readers who are familiar with my "punchy" approach to forum-affairs, but it actually took me a minute, or two, to decide how to phrase the title of this thread, to ponder how to do it in such a manner as to make it a worthwhile conduit for feedback about the older game to folks who might be interested in purchasing it (them).

On one hand, I don't want to appear negative about the prospects for the upcoming game. On the other, I found the public's reaction to PCOWS sort of underwhelming, and I was curious as to why y'all think that the game didn't generate more interest than it did.

In anticipation of the upcoming release of the Kharkov game, I reinstalled PCOWS, patched it, and began working my way through the scenarios in reverse order. I had a great time. The game is technically sound and as polished as anything that's published by Matrix, IMO.

So, what's the deal, why didn't Panzer Command take off? I have some ideas of my own, in this regard, but I honestly don't think that these can explain the whole dynamic surrounding the public's reaction to the game. So, please, guys, share your thoughts. And if anyone wants to elaborate on the differences between Operation Winter Storm and Kharkov, please feel welcome to do so.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[e_barkmann]

Some games here at Matrix could certainly benefit from continued forum presence and interaction by the developers of a particular game - this tends to fan the flame of interest when punters are getting info straight from the horses mouth.

And that's no slur on Matrix, their reps do a good job generally of keeping people in the loop, but it's not quite the same thing.
Perhaps developers feel they are treading on Matrix' toes.

cheers

[ravinhood]

The issues I had with the first rendition of this series was it's "replayability" no random battle generator, no random nothing generator, no real different unit placements and things like that and to me it was nothing more than a "simulation" and I just don't buy into "simulations" anymore. I want the game to give me practically unlimited options of how to play it, to be able to create whatif scenarios like Steel Panthers. I grew tired of simulations like "The Battle for Normandy" or "Operation Barbarossa" a long time ago and turned pretty much into a tactical freak playing games like SPWAW and Combat Mission and the Squad Battles games from HPS and more recently the Punic Wars one. I get into just about anything Ancient or Medieval if it has  a decent challenging AI.

Kharkov already boasts of being able to make as many random battles and as many random generated campaigns as one wants. As well as creating HIstorical battles and campaigns as well. It offers up something for everyone and I see the replayability as something that will last as long as SPWAW and CM origional series. It almost appears to be a marriage of SP and CM into one game since the CM series never had a campaign system like this game is going to deliver. Now a lot of blokes don't care for random and don't even play them. But, I'm one that does and plays almost religiously the random battles and campaigns in SP and the quick battles in CM. So, I'm looking forward to this one greatly. If the AI turns out to be a fair challenge I'll be looking foward to a Western Theater version of this as I rather enjoy playing the US forces moreso than any others.

The other thing I think might have turned some perspective buyers off is the way the Infantry structure and loss was delivered. It felt too much like a cardboard counter with pretty pictures and it was either a win/lose situation with the infantry. Kharkovs version is a lil better, but, it sounds more like they just added a disruption side to the infantry and now it just FLIPS like a carboard counter would that got disrupted and perhaps has one more combat reduction after the initial flip, but, from what i read it can still be totally elmininated in a single round. This is not quite like a SP or CM infantry unit as it can take several rounds to reduce most of the infantry structure to nothing and even before that it usually takes a shaken or broken posture and retreats from the field or tries to.

[06 Maestro]

I didn't buy PCOWS as it looked like a 1st person shooter (on a large scale) which I don't care for. The scale is something that did not interest me that much; a very large tactical game, or a very small operational game. Those impressions coupled with a few reported bugs was enough to keep me away from it.

I am interested in trying something completely new. I have followed the development of Kharkov and think that it is worth a try. Some time ago, I decided to purchase this game as soon as it is released. I doubt that it will replace my preferred method of game play of maps and unit icons, but it looks like it could give some real interesting contests. I am looking forward to its release.

[Deride]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant
Some games here at Matrix could certainly benefit from continued forum presence and interaction by the developers of a particular game - this tends to fan the flame of interest when punters are getting info straight from the horses mouth.

Chris,

Sorry to hear this. As producer / developer of games at Koios Works, I always felt that we made ourselves accessible to the community. Perhaps we could have been more proactive, but we spent most of our efforts in polishing the game and working closely with our beta community. Our philosophy had always been that a quality game speaks for itself -- coupled with the great work that Matrix does in promoting.

I hope that those folks who enjoy this (or any of the Koios Works games) will take the time to provide word-of-mouth recommendations to those who you think will also enjoy.

Thanks,
Russ

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Deride

As producer / developer of games at Koios Works, I always felt that we made ourselves accessible to the community.

Hi Russ,

In retrospect, I have to suggest the possibility that this aspect of your support for the game fell short in some measure.

Your team was, obviously, TOTALLY devoted to putting out a polished product. Unlike most developers which distribute patches to resolve serious stability and bug issues, your updates actually added features and improved gameplay. Hats off to you, your paid staff, and volunteers.

But, there was a SERIOUS PR problem on the PCOWS forum. A troll was actively involved in subverting discussion of your game. Rather than providing useful insight into Winter Storm, I honestly believe that he was doing so to undermine the work and credibility of another developer.

Regrettably, He pretty much took over the PCOWS forum for a period of weeks before and after the publishing of your new game. IIRC, at one point, seven out of eight threads on the Winter Storm forum were initiated/promulgated by the same scoundrel.

From the standpoint of a potential buyer who was seeking useful comment on the virtues of your product, this proved a strong negative. This lack of effective moderation, not censorship, but simple monitoring and timely intervention, hurt your game, IMO.

Thanks again,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

The issues I had with the first rendition of this series was it's "replayability" [...]

Good enough, Ravinhood, but why didn't folks, modders, generate more scenarios for the game?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Mobius]

It was the weather.
Cold, flat wintery snow maps never gathered players at minature shows so while interesting and realistic it is not as popular as green fields. Plus all the popular German tanks except the Tiger was left out.

Second in not drawing crowds is desert terrain so I wouldn't recommend an entire supplement of desert battles.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

Plus all the popular German tanks except the Tiger was left out.

I spent several evenings floundering about in PCOWS, before discovering that my favorite German vehicle was the Stug IIIf. From a content standpoint, the vehicles really only seem like a constraint when compared to the variety found in older games, CMBB, for instance.

Second in not drawing crowds is desert terrain so I wouldn't recommend an entire supplement of desert battles.

This comment is a tangle for me, as I'm no fan of the Eastern Front.

I've always suspected that the Western Desert will attract considerably more customers because there are more nationalities in play, as opposed to the SS/Communist fare favored by the skinhead element within our hobby.

It's also worth noting that the best selling titles of both the Combat Mission and Close Combat series of games were those focused on the Western Front.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

The issues I had with the first rendition of this series was it's "replayability" [...]

Good enough, Ravinhood, but why didn't folks, modders, generate more scenarios for the game?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

Mainly because Matrixgames doesn't put some of their better developers games out for the public to view. Hiding them on a direct download site like this I would say cuts sales by 50% while cutting overhead perhaps the same. I don't know Matrix's gains and losses. But, I've said before they should at least give KOIOS a try at a retail market level in brick n mortar stores like Bestbuy and Circuit City...as a consumer those are the two places I go to look for software. Walmart's wouldn't be bad also, at least for awhile it would get some FACE (shelf life). I don't see how they can sit there an expect these "unknown developers" to blossom when Matrixgames site is already a niche site for viewing prospective wargame purchases. Look when I found out about Matrixgames compared to its start date (my joined date).

I really think they should give KHARKOV some FACE this time around. It comes with randon generators and SOME modders tools although a MAP editor is one of the prime sellers for games that mods like to muck with. That's still not in the program yet and hopefully will be in the next one. There's two types of buyers out there it would appear. The PLAYERS and the CREATORS. Games nowadays should be made for both I suppose.

Modders like a FULL SET of TOOLS when they purchase games, not half arsed and only one or two. Being able to muck around with the terrain on the SAME OLE MAPS just gets old and boring as the next thing. They want to design their own hills and dales and towns and cities and urban areas etc. etc. They don't want to be LIMITED either by what they can do an accomplish. Thesea are things that set PC:OWS back on sales and will also be a factor with Kharkov as well. Though I believe Kharkov will get increased sales because of the random features it comes with this time. I know I will buy it for that reason as opposed to the reason I didn't buy PC:OWS.

EDIT: They need to go back an add a RANDOM BATTLE/CAMPAIGN GENERATOR to Tin Soldiers:CAESAR game. I'm still impressed with that game although it also didn't get much FACE.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Mainly because Matrixgames doesn't put some of their better developers games out for the public to view. Hiding them on a direct download site like this I would say cuts sales by 50% while cutting overhead perhaps the same. I don't know Matrix's gains and losses. But, I've said before they should at least give KOIOS a try at a retail market level in brick n mortar stores like Bestbuy and Circuit City...as a consumer those are the two places I go to look for software. Walmart's wouldn't be bad also, at least for awhile it would get some FACE (shelf life). I don't see how they can sit there an expect these "unknown developers" to blossom when Matrixgames site is already a niche site for viewing prospective wargame purchases. Look when I found out about Matrixgames compared to its start date (my joined date)

Sorry, but PZCOPWS was released retail [;)]. Selected products are still getting a retail release chance if we feel that the immense print and promotion costs and the low margin the publisher and developer (of wargames) would make from it, justify the extra promo (a fitting title can generate; with "fitting" being the keyword here) in retail. You should not forget that margins for a wargame title in retail are minimal. Still the productions costs are high, much higher then for an AAA title, cause we simply do not print 500.000 copies [;)]. The big players make the money via the mass and the mainstream appeal of their product line. Sad but true, but this is a niche market and hence we have to play by different rules.

On a sidenote, our products are also picked up by various Hobby Shop countrywide and in Europe. We have resellers that visit the obvious trade shows and cons. So we pretty much cover what we can with respect to our target group.
If your fav hobby shop does not have our games, ask them. We will be happy to provide them with a sales rep contact.

Your 50% figure is way off, way way way off. We actually profit from taking this route.

[e_barkmann]

EDIT: They need to go back an add a RANDOM BATTLE/CAMPAIGN GENERATOR to Tin Soldiers:CAESAR game. I'm still impressed with that game although it also didn't get much FACE.

Any game that ends up on a retail shelf in Adelaide Australia certainly has had a good shot at marketing.

cheers

[Krasny]

I didn't buy the first game because of reviews that said it was a dumbed down version of CM.

[Phenix]

Marketing?
I also didnt buy it cause on the Forums i visited, most people say that Kharkov was just a lesser version of CM.
And i do like CM so it takes alot for me to change [:)]
But i will buy Kharkov asap.

Regarding the maps and setting i do hope you stay on the eastern front for your third game also ?[;)]

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Phenix
I also didnt buy it cause on the Forums i visited, most people say that Kharkov was just a lesser version of CM.

You mean Winterstorm?

[Grell]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: Deride

As producer / developer of games at Koios Works, I always felt that we made ourselves accessible to the community.

Hi Russ,

In retrospect, I have to suggest the possibility that this aspect of your support for the game fell short in some measure.

Your team was, obviously, TOTALLY devoted to putting out a polished product. Unlike most developers which distribute patches to resolve serious stability and bug issues, your updates actually added features and improved gameplay. Hats off to you, your paid staff, and volunteers.

But, there was a SERIOUS PR problem on the PCOWS forum. A troll was actively involved in subverting discussion of your game. Rather than providing useful insight into Winter Storm, I honestly believe that he was doing so to undermine the work and credibility of another developer.

Regrettably, He pretty much took over the PCOWS forum for a period of weeks before and after the publishing of your new game. IIRC, at one point, seven out of eight threads on the Winter Storm forum were initiated/promulgated by the same scoundrel.

From the standpoint of a potential buyer who was seeking useful comment on the virtues of your product, this proved a strong negative. This lack of effective moderation, not censorship, but simple monitoring and timely intervention, hurt your game, IMO.

Thanks again,

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

Hi POE,

I can't believe a scoundrel like that would be here at Matrix. Then again those types of
people are on every game release form it would seem. I just thought Matrix was free of this type of behavior.


Regards,

Grell

[Phenix]

Yes, sorry, of course.
i mean winterstorm.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
So, what's the deal, why didn't Panzer Command take off? I have some ideas of my own, in this regard, but I honestly don't think that these can explain the whole dynamic surrounding the public's reaction to the game. So, please, guys, share your thoughts. And if anyone wants to elaborate on the differences between Operation Winter Storm and Kharkov, please feel welcome to do so.

My personal thoughts on this are as follows - the first release had limited content (12 scenarios) and a limited subset of units. While it was moddable, it required more work than most were interested in doing to mod it. The "all winter and flat" look, though historical for the area, also turned off some folks.

I think Kharkov corrects all these shortcomings (and then some!) so I expected it to be received quite differently. So far, that seems to be the case. Winterstorm was a great game, but I think given CM's precedent people wanted a great game with more content too.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Chris Merchant
Some games here at Matrix could certainly benefit from continued forum presence and interaction by the developers of a particular game - this tends to fan the flame of interest when punters are getting info straight from the horses mouth.
And that's no slur on Matrix, their reps do a good job generally of keeping people in the loop, but it's not quite the same thing.
Perhaps developers feel they are treading on Matrix' toes.

Chris, it's surprising you should say this, as Koios was quite present on the forums for Winterstorm's release. On this project, even more than on the last one, we and Koios formed a combined team. For example, I worked on the daily game design along with Kevin at Koios, Marc did the interface art, our artists did all the 3D models and textures (though Koios imported and animated most of them), our designers did the historical research, map design, scenarios and campaigns, I wrote the manual, one of our team wrote the Scenario Editor, Campaign Editor, Random Battle Generator and Random Campaign Generator, etc.

So when you're hearing from me, Stridor and Mobius, you're actually hearing from people who were very involved in the game's ongoing daily development.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
This is not quite like a SP or CM infantry unit as it can take several rounds to reduce most of the infantry structure to nothing and even before that it usually takes a shaken or broken posture and retreats from the field or tries to.

Actually, that's usually how infantry reacts and takes damage (in effect) in Kharkov now too.