Why won't they fly

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

bigjoe96912
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:01 am

Why won't they fly

Post by bigjoe96912 »

I have B-26's based in Tarawa a 4af, and they will not attack any island in range. Same with B25's and the F4f's won't do cap. I have 80K supply 90 AV Base Force. However the B-24's will take off and bomb Kwagalien

WTF Over

Son of Jorg
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:36 am
Location: South Dakota

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Son of Jorg »

I would say weather could be a problem, as could DL (detection level). Have you done any recon flights over your targets?
bigjoe96912
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:01 am

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by bigjoe96912 »

I recon everything with PBY's now the targets do not have any AF(0) and no troops and that is the only thing I can see, been at this a month (GT) my real problem is why I don't get any LR Cap over Makin with 2 squadrons of wildcats
User avatar
decaro
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 pm
Location: Stratford, Connecticut
Contact:

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by decaro »

How's your Wildcat's morale/fatigue?
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center]Image[/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
User avatar
Gem35
Posts: 3420
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:51 pm
Location: Dallas, Texas

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Gem35 »

I second Joe D.'s assertation.
Planes have to pass morale checks in order to fly.
Bad weather and bad leaders can cause trouble as well.
Post screenshots of your squadrons, it helps out alot in order to explain the wtf's.[;)]
It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?

[center]Image[/center]
[center]Banner By Feurer Krieg[/center]
Coach Z
Posts: 576
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:38 pm
Location: New York

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Coach Z »

Sometimes they wont fly no matter what.
I've rotated units to behind lines areas for several days watch their moral go up, send them back and their morale drops. Their morale drops and they aren't flying any misssions except the occasional Naval Search (can't be 100% sure they didnt fly those) and their moralle still plummets! Now I'm talking about Betty & Nell Units with 75+ experience who have never run in to heavy enemy CAP or heavy flak either.
ZUCK
Alfred
Posts: 6683
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:56 am

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Alfred »

Re. LRCAP.  Firstly, what is the range from Tarawa to Makin?  Fighters will not LRCAP at extended range, only at normal range.  Secondly, have you specified Makin as the target for your fighters?
 
Re. bombers.  Is the target left up to the commanders discretion.  If answer is yes, as there are no troops located on the other bases, there is nothing for them to hit.  This is particularly relevant if you have the bombers on naval strike with AF or port strike only as a secondary mission.  You will have to specifically target the bombers to hit the empty bases.
 
Alfred
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 8033
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by jwilkerson »

There are a number of reason why the "fly" percentage is reduced .. these include ..

Supply
Air Rating of unit leader
Unit morale (a number of die rolls)
Leader Morale (a number of die rolls)
Unit experience
Airfield overload
cold zone
CV/CVL/CVE in base hex

Altogether there are seveal dozen die rolls that contribute to the no fly decision ...

Further there are some "hard coded" checks for various parameters like amount of cap versus amount of escort, number of target ships, and some other targeting parameters.

As some have said it is all "very complicated" ... but typical Gary Grisgsby. Attempting to enhance fog of war by making it difficult for us players to predict exactly what will happen. Real combat is anything if predictable.

So when planes won't fly .. it does not mean the game is broke .. it means some game parameters have been triggered which are mitigating against your planes flying, if you optimize the fly factors then you will usually fly .. but not always .. that is part of the intended experience ...

AE Project Lead
SCW Project Lead
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by mogami »

Hi, I would like to see a screen shot. Call up each group not flying and post that screen.
Also exactly how many aircraft are deployed on the level 4 field?
What exactly are you assigning as targets? (no airfield and no enemy troops what is target supposed to be)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Dive Bomber1
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Dive Bomber1 »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

There are a number of reason why the "fly" percentage is reduced .. these include ..

Supply
Air Rating of unit leader
Unit morale (a number of die rolls)
Leader Morale (a number of die rolls)
Unit experience
Airfield overload
cold zone
CV/CVL/CVE in base hex

Altogether there are seveal dozen die rolls that contribute to the no fly decision ...

Further there are some "hard coded" checks for various parameters like amount of cap versus amount of escort, number of target ships, and some other targeting parameters.

As some have said it is all "very complicated" ... but typical Gary Grisgsby. Attempting to enhance fog of war by making it difficult for us players to predict exactly what will happen. Real combat is anything if predictable.

So when planes won't fly .. it does not mean the game is broke .. it means some game parameters have been triggered which are mitigating against your planes flying, if you optimize the fly factors then you will usually fly .. but not always .. that is part of the intended experience ...


That is very disappointing to read. Does this mean that the mechanisms for getting planes off of the ground will be as frustrating in AE as they are in WitP? That is not a very good incentive to buy AE - it seems to have the potential of "throwing good money after bad".

I believe that there are parts of the Game that are "Broke" and badly, when it comes to the Air Mission routines. I have three pbems running now against three different opponents and never once in any of those pbems (one in December 1942, one in August 1942, and one in March 1942) have I succeeded in getting bombing missions to fly against the crossroads hex that is north of Canton. That is regardless of what air units I use, which base they are based at, what type of plane is used, how many air units are chosen, how much experience the pilots have, how much supply is at the air bases, etc, etc, etc.

However, if I set any of those planes to attack any other target in the vicinity, whether an enemy base or an enemy LCU, the same planes that won't fly against the hex to the north of Canton will fly and attack.

I've seen that happen in hundreds of turns now. Why so many turns? Because I keep on "believing" people like you who insist that I must be doing something wrong. But I don't really believe any more, because I see too many other repeating data base issues in the Game - enough to convince me that the Data Base has problems with Air Missions too.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by mogami »

Hi, When you say "Bomb the crossroads hex" do you mean the LCU there? There is no mission for attacking roads or RR in WITP. To interdict movement you bomb the LCU.
Valid targets in WITP are ships, LCU ,ports and airfields as well as oil centers and resource centers and factories. You cannot plot TF or ships they are attacked using the naval or port attack routines.
Airfield and port attacks will also bomb supply in the target hex.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Dive Bomber1
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Dive Bomber1 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, When you say "Bomb the crossroads hex" do you mean the LCU there? There is no mission for attacking roads or RR in WITP. To interdict movement you bomb the LCU.
Valid targets in WITP are ships, LCU ,ports and airfields as well as oil centers and resource centers and factories. You cannot plot TF or ships they are attacked using the naval or port attack routines.
Airfield and port attacks will also bomb supply in the target hex.

Correct, I am speaking of bombing LCUs that are in that hex.

For example, in my mid-March 1942 pbem, my opponent has had LCUs sitting in that hex since December 9, 1941. I have never been able to get any planes in any of the bases in the region to bomb that hex. I have some air units that have been set to Ground attack against that hex for most of that time, other than the occasional alternate targets that I have set.

The planes that won't attack the LCUs in that hex will attack LCUs in any other hex in that region, and will attack the bases in that region. Some of those air units will attack other valid targets day after day. But I can't get any air unit - dive bombers, Army 2Es, Navy 2Es, or any type of fighter - to bomb the LCUs in that hex.

BTW - in this particular pbem we are playing with Advanced Weather set to "Off". In my other two pbems Advanced Weather is set to "On".

Thanks -
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by mogami »

Hi, Set another group to fly recon into the hex. Recon and search missions fly before bombing missions. The darker the LCU appears the better your detection level.
Keep some fighters for escort because if the enemy is flying LRCAP that could cause unescorted bombers to abort.
Have you tried low level fighter-bombers?
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Nomad
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:00 am
Location: West Yellowstone, Montana

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Nomad »

This is the hex in question? 43,40?

I had no problem bombing it. Stock, senario 15.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 63rd Chinese Corps, at 43,40

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 3
Ki-51 Sonia x 12
Ki-15 Babs x 1

No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 43,40

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 6

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Image
Attachments
no_bomb.jpg
no_bomb.jpg (166.12 KiB) Viewed 225 times
Dive Bomber1
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Dive Bomber1 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Set another group to fly recon into the hex. Recon and search missions fly before bombing missions. The darker the LCU appears the better your detection level.
Keep some fighters for escort because if the enemy is flying LRCAP that could cause unescorted bombers to abort.
Have you tried low level fighter-bombers?

I've had as many as 5 dedicated Recon units set to fly in to that hex. They won't fly there either. I regularly and successfully bomb Chinese LCUs in the "field" elsewhere without using Recon flights

In the mid-March 1942 pbem I've had 6 LCUs in that hex from mid-December 1942 until the present. Every day they do an artillery attack on the 8 Chinese LCUs. The 8 Chinese LCUs then do artillery bombardments back. BTW - those 8 Chinese LCUs total about 125, 000 troops.

I've had several Daitais of Zeros on LR CAP, Escort and Sweep over that hex. I haven't done that recently because my opponent hasn't had any planes at all, let alone fighters, within LR CAP range of that hex since January 1942.

I have tried low-altitude fighters on "Ground attack" missions, but they haven't flown either. I don't have any fighter bombers as the Japanese player at this point in my pbems.

BTW - I have an Air HQ in Canton, with a very good Air HQ General in charge. The Air HQ has a range of 4 hexes. I also have plenty of supplies, the air fields are at level 6, and I have an Air Support Engineering Regiment in place so that I have over 250 Air support points. I typically have less than 100 planes at the air field at Canton, and often much less. Even a single Sonia Chutai, along with a single Babs Recon unit, won't fly to 43,40. The same thing goes for Hong Kong, for Amoy, etc, etc.

Along the road between Sian and Chungking, three hexes west of Sian, I have a half dozen LCUs, as does my opponent. We are both able to bomb each other's troops regularly. Last turn my opponent sent in his Chinese 2E bombers unescorted, my Zeros on LR CAP slaughtered them. I regularly have dive bombers hit my opponents troops in that hex, with or without escorts. A while back I sent in some Nates on Ground Attack and they were ambushed by some P-40Bs on LR CAP over that hex - but my surviving Nates still dropped their bombs.

Along the road from Rangoon to Mandalay I also have a half dozen LCUs, as does my opponent. We are both able to bomb each other's troops regularly. We routinely "out guess" each other when it comes to sending out LR CAP.

So I am only seeing the effect at 43, 40.

I've seen the same effect in my pbem against AuTiger. He hasn't been putting any LR CAP over his troops because my planes never fly against that hex. When he was moving his troops into that hex I was able to bomb his LCUs while they were on the road and moving towards 43,40. Once they reached 43,40 my planes never fly against those troops again.

When AuTiger attacked Nanning my planes flew against his troops at Nanning and everywhere along the road from Nanning to Canton, with the exception of 43,40.

In the other earlier times in the Game when AuTiger sent his troops to Canton, my planes attacked his troops everyone in the area, including Canton, but not at 43,40.

In my third pbem that is in August 1942, the problem has become "moot" because my troops captured all of the Southern Chinese bases. But early in that pbem when my opponent put his troops at 43,40, my planes would not attack that hex either.

Usually duing the Combat Replay if I remember to look for them I notice clouds over 43,40. That's in all of my pbems. My guess is that there is a glich in the Data Base that is similar to what happens to LCUs when they refuse to move to a location because the Database "thinks" that they are in an enemy zone of control, yet they are no where near any enemy troops.

Thanks for your suggestions.
Dive Bomber1
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Dive Bomber1 »

This is the hex in question? 43,40?

I had no problem bombing it. Stock, senario 15.


Yes, that is the hex.

As I mentioned to Mogami, I believe that this is some sort of Data Base glich where the data isn't "cleared", similar to what happens to LCUs when they won't move to a hex because the Data Base, "thinks" that the LCU is caught in a zone of control.

Similarly, there are certain Air Units that can't be transferred by "Choosing on the Map". When you try to click on a friendly base part of the base selection screen comes up. You can only move those planes to that base via the "Select on the List" option.

Unfortunately, however I am playing WitP, I have been able to create a condition in my pbems where in I can't bomb LCUs at 43,40.

Thanks for testing it though.
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by mogami »

Hi, I have never had a problem bombing that hex. I'm sorry I cannot understand why you can't.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
bradfordkay
Posts: 8579
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
Location: Olympia, WA

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by bradfordkay »

DB, have you been playing all three of those games on the same installation of WITP?

Have you tried replacing the pxhex file?
fair winds,
Brad
Dive Bomber1
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Dive Bomber1 »

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have never had a problem bombing that hex. I'm sorry I cannot understand why you can't.

As I just wrote in my AAR against AuTiger, I noticed during the Combat Replay that no enemy troops show up in hex 43,40, despite there being around a dozen or so there. So I am going to try to systematically increase the number and type of planes that I have trying to Recon that hex to see if there is some combination that will bring the hex back into "Detection".

BTW - My opponents have been able to bomb my troops in that hex when I have troops there.

Thanks again -
Dive Bomber1
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:59 pm

RE: Why won't they fly

Post by Dive Bomber1 »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

DB, have you been playing all three of those games on the same installation of WITP?

Have you tried replacing the pxhex file?

Yes, all three pbems are being played on the same PC. My opponents and I are all at the same revision of the Stock Game, although for some time I was still at 1.806 and they were at 1.807, and I didn't know it. (We were having Combat Replay problems at that time, but those problems went away when I upgraded.)

I don't know how to replace the pxhex file, nor what it is.

Is there any risk that I would jeopardize the pbems by replacing that or any other file?

Thanks -
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”