Brave Sir Robin

[Big B]

From the scenario design forum...

ORIGINAL: vettim89

In truth the problem is really the Land Combat System (BEEP!: thread hijack warning). From the historical info we have the poorly trained. equipped, and often led Commonwealth, Phillipine, RA US, and Dutch troops could not stand up to the Japanese Army that had been fighting in China for the better part of a decade. The RL Allies folded before the oncoming Japanese.This is not to say that there weren't cases where the Allies put up stout defense, just that from a strategic point of view, it was an untenable situation.

The Allies failed to turn back any Japanese advance until August/September 1942 when the Australians repelled the Milne Bay invasion. That was followed by numerous battles on GC eventually leading to vicory. IMO troop quality and experience plus supplies finally came up enough at this point where the Allied armies could and did first resist and then defeat the Japanese.

So if "Sir Robin" means withdrawing unit fragments by sub and other means than ok its a bit gamey. But if "Sir Robin" is really the JFB screaming "Stand still so I can hit you", the RL Allies didn't/couldn't, why should your AFB opponents? If the latter is true then IMHO, the Japanese player needs to invade areas where the Allies have no choice but fight: Oz, India, HI, WCUSA (LOL)

To me what makes this game great is exploring the What If's. If the invasion of Oz/India is the ultimate Japanes What If, isn't the implementation of Sir RObin in whatever form really just another What If? How many of you JFB want to take me up in a game where you agree to not invade Oz, India, HI, New Zealand, New Caledonia, Samoa, or Alaska Proper if I agree to not Sir Robin?

For those who don't venture into the scenario design forum - this discussion has been going on for a couple of days.
Not wishing to infringe on RHS design discussions - I am starting this thread here for any and all input regarding "the Sir Robin" defense.

Personally, I find that term as more of a taunt than anything else -
But that is why this thread has been started.

[Big B]

To help things roll along...

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Big B

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, the Japs will get ahead of their time table, obviously, but my main problem with this is that it's SO unhistorical and gamey. This could only happen in The Twilight Zone.

But Mr T, stop and consider, which is "gamier" in the historical sense of the word...

1) Not withdrawing a garrison - so that the enemy has to destroy it, and in the process - "hopefully" damage an installation.
or
2) Evacuating a garrison in good order before the arrival of an overwhelming force - but before leaving - destroying everything of use to the enemy?

Unfortunately, WitP does not allow you to choose optin #2 - you must damage those facilities yourself with your own forces, after the enemy gains them.

But Option #1 is truly Gamey in the historical sense...
"Let's see, rather than pull back to regroup and make a stand or save what I can, I will simply use my men as human demolition charges - since, in this game, that is one quick way I may be able damage facilities...rather than bombing them to smithereens when the enemy occupies them - but that would have to wait until I get enough bombers"

I guess the debate is endless...

We don't disagree that it would be nice to do proper scorched earth, but that's not available.

[niceguy2005]

What's gamey about the "Brave Sir Robinson" is that the it often involves withdrawing PI or Dutch units from their homeland to defend some foriegn country.  Beyond this I have not particular problem with the strategy.

[Big B]

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

B

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

What's gamey about the "Brave Sir Robinson" is that the it often involves withdrawing PI or Dutch units from their homeland to defend some foriegn country. Beyond this I have not particular problem with the strategy.

[BrucePowers]

It is a game. I like doing different things to have fun. I thought that was the point of a game. Just my opinion.

[Terminus]

Within reason, yeah. But wholesale evacutations? No.

[rtrapasso]

i will point out that by leaving your troops in place to be reduced piecemeal, you are giving the Japanese player several thousand points, which means you will have to recoup that times 1.75 or 2 or 3 in order to get a win*... and by having the troops available, it makes it easier later in the game...

i personally don't do a "full-fledged" Sir Robin, but i do make it a priority to get out non-combat type units (Base Forces, HQ, etc.) i will point out the Allies generally made attempts to do the same, except in real life, the "Base Force" units were attached to air units for the most part. When evacuating, air units made every attempt to get out their mechanics, etc. when they left from what i've read.

*EDIT - depending on when you are trying to get a win... or it might make it that much easier for the Japanese to get an autovictory by giving them a few thousand extra points.

[Dixie]

I don't have a problem with it myself.  I'll try to save the Aussie units from Malaya and the 4th Marines for example.  If my oppo wants to flee without putting up a fight then that's his/her choice, just as I may or may not want to withdraw major Japanese combat units from the Pacific to defend Japan.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

B

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

What's gamey about the "Brave Sir Robinson" is that the it often involves withdrawing PI or Dutch units from their homeland to defend some foriegn country. Beyond this I have not particular problem with the strategy.

For be it from me to disagree with a man suggesting we all drink beer...but...it doesn't really get to the point I would make, which is, you can't put a man on a ship sail him away from his home (possibly his family) and say you were just going to get your butt kicked anyway so come defend my home and my family and expect him to fight. Hence, pulling the Dutch militias out of the DEI is just a gamey tactic if its done before the DEI collapse. Sure, once the units have been rendered ineffective, they are more refugees then fighters and could be pulled out to act as units in exile.

IMO what is typically referred to as the Brave Sir Robin is mass retreat of everything not nailed down, rather than tactical redeployment.

The Japanese player (in stock at least) has several advantages over history. First and foremost is knowledge of his opponents OOB and the ability to alter his accordingly...not much to be done about that.

[herwin]

Putting the 8th Aust ID and 18th Br ID in Malaya was really dumb, so it's clear the Allies did the opposite of Sir Robin there. Figure most of the in-country forces weren't worth pulling out. Neither the NEI nor the PI had out-of-country pop to reconstitute from, so they were stuck fighting where they were.

[herwin]

The Japanese had copies of the Commonwealth defence plans.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Big B

Well, to paraphrase what vettim89 nicely said above -

WWII happened how it happened. If you wish to agree, that under no circumstances - you will move one inch beyond the limit of historical Japanese expansion/nor build one more unit than Japan historically did - then I will agree to not save/move any unit that was historically destroyed in that time and place.

However, WitP is a fluid game - and such guarantees cannot/should not be made...otherwise we can all just watch a documentary and drink a beer.[;)]

B

This is one point for me to do Sir Robin, two others are:
1. I dictate then where to fight and with how much. If you don't do Sir Robin, the enemy knows where how much is. If I evacuate some units, he will be surprised elsewhere.
2. I am REALLY bad in land combat. I still don't understand more than approx. 10% of the ground combat model. So I can barely trust my own competence and have to rely on strength by massing troops - which is much easier when I have evacuated some before...


BTW:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=FbiJEy3JH74
[&o]

[Rainer]

had out-of-country pop to reconstitute from

Can you express this in a form more understandable for non-English speakers, please?
Thanks.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Rainer

had out-of-country pop to reconstitute from

Can you express this in a form more understandable for non-English speakers, please?
Thanks.

Sounds like maybe he drank an English beer!
[:D]

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Rainer

had out-of-country pop to reconstitute from

Can you express this in a form more understandable for non-English speakers, please?
Thanks.

Sounds like maybe he drank an English beer!
[:D]

There's nothing wrong with English beer [:-] It has 'flavour' due to the fact we use river water [:D] and (usually) a decent alcohol content. Not that I would know as I don't drink.


I think that he meant to imply that that the Dutch and Phillipino forces did not have access to manpower reserves to embark on large scale rebuilding of any military units due to the occupied state of their homelands.

[Mistmatz]

Not to hijack the thread but somehow when it comes to Sir Robin and maybe evacuations in general there are usually some who think saving fragments is gamey.

I don't consider saving fragments for later rebuild gamey at all as there is a big amount of replacements required. I assume in most mods the infantry squads of the various nations are the limiting factor for rebuilding. Therefore there is for example no use in evacuating fragments of all Phillipine divisions for rebuild as you will (rightfully) never get enough phillipine squads to rebuild them within the duration of the game.

Quite contrary, if the amount of fighting power (squads) a player receives is well defined in a mod the player needs a method to use those. As there is no way to add new units for the player to spent his replacement troops on it's IMO perfectly alright to use the skelotons of the destroyed ones. Of course it's problematic that experience is not set back to a lower value when troops are replaced but this is a general problem that for instance also exists with the chinese respawning LCUs.

Opinions?

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i will point out that by leaving your troops in place to be reduced piecemeal, you are giving the Japanese player several thousand points, which means you will have to recoup that times 1.75 or 2 or 3 in order to get a win*... and by having the troops available, it makes it easier later in the game...

i personally don't do a "full-fledged" Sir Robin, but i do make it a priority to get out non-combat type units (Base Forces, HQ, etc.) i will point out the Allies generally made attempts to do the same, except in real life, the "Base Force" units were attached to air units for the most part. When evacuating, air units made every attempt to get out their mechanics, etc. when they left from what i've read.

*EDIT - depending on when you are trying to get a win... or it might make it that much easier for the Japanese to get an autovictory by giving them a few thousand extra points.

I would agree but both the planes and pilots that did get out were incorporated into existing units at their final destination. The game engine allows you to save a handful of men from the PI or Singapore and transport them to Oz or India and slowly the units rebuild to full strength. That is where the game separates itself from history. If the OOB is corrrect and all historical formations eventually appear then it does give the Allied player "gain" units for later use.

[Roger Neilson II]

The pulling out of local forces 'a la Sir Robin' is very difficult to justify in real life. OTOH the ability of Jap bombs of 60kg to penetrate BB armour when allied bombs bounce off Jap BBs is of course completely acceptable. At some point, round about day one of the war, things deviate from the actual into a game form.

No beer drunk at all, but one or two whiskies......

Roger

NYTOL......

(obscure reference to UK medication)

[Big B]

Agreed.

Rebuilding fragments comes solely from the replacement pool, and nations routinely rebuild destroyed formations in name.

For the Allied player - he is low on units to re-constitute early in the war, and must do so from his pools anyway. For the Japanese player - the exact same holds true.

Not gamey - just using basic intelligence.

B

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Not to hijack the thread but somehow when it comes to Sir Robin and maybe evacuations in general there are usually some who think saving fragments is gamey.

I don't consider saving fragments for later rebuild gamey at all as there is a big amount of replacements required. I assume in most mods the infantry squads of the various nations are the limiting factor for rebuilding. Therefore there is for example no use in evacuating fragments of all Phillipine divisions for rebuild as you will (rightfully) never get enough phillipine squads to rebuild them within the duration of the game.

Quite contrary, if the amount of fighting power (squads) a player receives is well defined in a mod the player needs a method to use those. As there is no way to add new units for the player to spent his replacement troops on it's IMO perfectly alright to use the skelotons of the destroyed ones. Of course it's problematic that experience is not set back to a lower value when troops are replaced but this is a general problem that for instance also exists with the chinese respawning LCUs.

Opinions?

[Roger Neilson II]

Smithers.... look here this isn't right!

What my commandant?

You have just authorised the reforming of the 32nd Foot And Mouth.

Yes my commandant.

But they were captured at Singapore, and we gave our sacred oath that we would never reform a unit that had been captured by the enemy..

Sorry my commandant, I am an idiot!

Apologies to The Goons.....

Roger