This AAR is the Japanese side of Scenario 192, Big B's Mod Version 1.5. We are using the Andrew's Extended Map Version. Many of you know that I have played this Mod with Dan Roper for quite some time in our Forlorn Hopes Campaign. I am a big fan of Brian's work with this Mod and readily look forward to causing chaos across the Pacific.
This campaign is being fought as a 2x2 with myself and Q-Ball (Brad) playing the Japanese versus NY Giants (Michael) and Wolfpack (Paul). I've played and known Michael and Paul for a long time and they shall make worthy opponents.
Anyone who knows me as an Japanese players knows that I am hyper-aggressive. My intention is to curb that some. Brad and I plan to use the first sets of entries to decide upon player responsibilities and set-up our initial and long-term strategy. While reporting on the action, you WILL NOT see endless pages of combat reports. I detest that as the writer on an AAR. It is my profound hope that we can use the AAR to go in-depth on the Japanese economy as well as strategic decisions and choices.
We are currently passing around a proposed set of House Rules. Let me copy and paste them for the next entry.
I should also say that this is a closed AAR to the Allied players.
"The First Team"--Japanese Perspective
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
"The First Team"--Japanese Perspective
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Proposed House Rules
HOUSE RULES – Big B’s 2x2[/b]
Non-historical 1st turn: The Japanese "may" move LCU's from their historical start positions to "major" bases throughout the Pacific (Truk, Kwajalein, Palau, Saigon, Camranh Bay, Formosa, Home Islands, etc.) From there they can be sent on turn 2 to invade where ever.
Multiple port attacks allowed on turn 1, but must be based on a CV/CVL/CVE. Thus, KB & mini-KB may be used in combinations non-historical.
450 planes total in one hex from CV/CVL/CVE's. No Allied "death stars" in late war stages, nor the KB plus "death star" by mid-42 when they get more CV's.
ASW TFs cannot exceed 7 ships (AF size x 50) + 10% = AF capacity. Thus, a size 5AF can have 250 planes + (250 x 10%) = 275 planes
PT Boats may not be included in TFs with other ships (exception: when transferring between bases - using the extra ships as portable fuel sources. PT TF may have a max of 6 ships in it 1 PT TF for a port size 0 to 4; 2 PT TF for a port size 5 to 8; and 3 PT TF for a port size 9 and 10.
No creating Barges/PT at bases smaller than size 3.
No Allied CV Capable air units on CV's until 1/44 - designed to keep Marine Fighter groups off CV's
Allied player may only give orders to Allied warships (not AK/AP) already at sea on turn 1
No units of the Kwangtung HQ, Indian HQ, and China HQ may be moved out of the area without first paying the applicable PP costs (Land or Air units)
No 4e level-bombing below 10,000' when set for naval attack. B-29's are not allowed to be set on naval attack.
A player may place 1,000 mines for every Port factor above zero (Port 0—1,000, Port 1—2,000, Port 9—10,000 mines).
Invasions only on base or dot hexes.
Cadre evacuations allowed.
No Japanese LCU naval-based invasions north of Tavoy until Singapore falls.
"Be realistic" with cutting off troops for surrender. A whole Btn would be sufficient to cut off a unit, but a few squads = no.
Sub evac = ok. Sub invasion = not ok.
No "shock with pursuit" attacks except if conducted by an armored unit.
Play a "gentleman's game". If you think it might be gamey, it probably is, so don't do it.
Non-historical 1st turn: The Japanese "may" move LCU's from their historical start positions to "major" bases throughout the Pacific (Truk, Kwajalein, Palau, Saigon, Camranh Bay, Formosa, Home Islands, etc.) From there they can be sent on turn 2 to invade where ever.
Multiple port attacks allowed on turn 1, but must be based on a CV/CVL/CVE. Thus, KB & mini-KB may be used in combinations non-historical.
450 planes total in one hex from CV/CVL/CVE's. No Allied "death stars" in late war stages, nor the KB plus "death star" by mid-42 when they get more CV's.
ASW TFs cannot exceed 7 ships (AF size x 50) + 10% = AF capacity. Thus, a size 5AF can have 250 planes + (250 x 10%) = 275 planes
PT Boats may not be included in TFs with other ships (exception: when transferring between bases - using the extra ships as portable fuel sources. PT TF may have a max of 6 ships in it 1 PT TF for a port size 0 to 4; 2 PT TF for a port size 5 to 8; and 3 PT TF for a port size 9 and 10.
No creating Barges/PT at bases smaller than size 3.
No Allied CV Capable air units on CV's until 1/44 - designed to keep Marine Fighter groups off CV's
Allied player may only give orders to Allied warships (not AK/AP) already at sea on turn 1
No units of the Kwangtung HQ, Indian HQ, and China HQ may be moved out of the area without first paying the applicable PP costs (Land or Air units)
No 4e level-bombing below 10,000' when set for naval attack. B-29's are not allowed to be set on naval attack.
A player may place 1,000 mines for every Port factor above zero (Port 0—1,000, Port 1—2,000, Port 9—10,000 mines).
Invasions only on base or dot hexes.
Cadre evacuations allowed.
No Japanese LCU naval-based invasions north of Tavoy until Singapore falls.
"Be realistic" with cutting off troops for surrender. A whole Btn would be sufficient to cut off a unit, but a few squads = no.
Sub evac = ok. Sub invasion = not ok.
No "shock with pursuit" attacks except if conducted by an armored unit.
Play a "gentleman's game". If you think it might be gamey, it probably is, so don't do it.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Proposed House Rules
I am sorting through my Forlorn Hopes AAR for other House Rules to add. Anyone see anything glaringly wrong or missing with this set?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Proposed House Rules
I just went through ten pages of my Forlorn Hopes AAR reading from the capture of Iwo Jima to Dan's grabbing of Sakhalin and think we need some sort of House Rule regarding max number of ships that can be disbanded in a Port and something on the ability to replennish from a small Port (Sz 0, 1 or 2). Does anyone have suggestions on these issues?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Strategy
John;
If you like, I can start on the first-turn file. I need to sit down and think further, but some things off the top of my head:
1. Obviously we need to determine initial targets first. Can't do much before then. Some ideas I have:
a) Obvious: Malaya, PI. We can talk about specific divisions for each. But 2 divs, plus base forces to northern Luzon probably it for PI.
b) Bomb and clear Hong-Kong
c) Wake. Need more than that Nav Gd though.
d) Tarawa. Need to set up an airbase fast.
e) I like an early thrust through Amboina/Kendari/Koepang. This isolates the DEI from Northern Australia, and makes it impossible for the Allies to shuttle P-40s from Australia to the DEI. It also will contain Force Z. This movement would have to be supported by BB's, probably the "Fusos". (for ease, I refer to all 4 old IJN 10x14 BBs as FUSOs, they are virtually identical).
f) Landing at Kuching on other end also a no-brainer.
g) We probably need to detail a division to Rabaul/PM in that succession. We probably can't afford more than a division commitment to the SE Pacific. I am thinking.
2. Production:
I will look, but probably need the following:
1. More Zeros and Oscars
2. More Naka engines
3. Begin R&D for Tojo/Tony
4. Convert some Merchant to Naval Shipyard.
5. Accelerate Naval: All CV's, or at least the '42 ones
6. Turn OFF all Merchant Construction, except AOs. Accelerate CVEs. Convert and Accelerate 2 MLEs, 2 ARs, and an AS. Convert but do not accelerate more Auxilliaries, probably 2 more MLEs, 4 more ARs, 3 more ASs. I don't like AVs or AEs, useless.
Alot of areas start short on supply, particularly PALAU. I find you can correct this quickly by loading a construction battalion Turn 1 onto AK's or something, and it will automatically fill with supplies. Dispatch turn 1, and it will sail almost all the way to where you need it.
In general, alot of units and ships are not in the right place. For ease of organization, I tend to consolidate all Home Islands Shipping thusly:
MERCHANT: Osaka. Also all reinforcements awaiting transport moved to Osaka. This is just easier to manage; we can see all available transport and all units awaiting. This means collecting many many spare ships turn one from all over the place.
Force Z will go away if an umbrella of Bettys is over the DEI. Or get sunk, either way is fine with me!
If you like, I can start on the first-turn file. I need to sit down and think further, but some things off the top of my head:
1. Obviously we need to determine initial targets first. Can't do much before then. Some ideas I have:
a) Obvious: Malaya, PI. We can talk about specific divisions for each. But 2 divs, plus base forces to northern Luzon probably it for PI.
b) Bomb and clear Hong-Kong
c) Wake. Need more than that Nav Gd though.
d) Tarawa. Need to set up an airbase fast.
e) I like an early thrust through Amboina/Kendari/Koepang. This isolates the DEI from Northern Australia, and makes it impossible for the Allies to shuttle P-40s from Australia to the DEI. It also will contain Force Z. This movement would have to be supported by BB's, probably the "Fusos". (for ease, I refer to all 4 old IJN 10x14 BBs as FUSOs, they are virtually identical).
f) Landing at Kuching on other end also a no-brainer.
g) We probably need to detail a division to Rabaul/PM in that succession. We probably can't afford more than a division commitment to the SE Pacific. I am thinking.
2. Production:
I will look, but probably need the following:
1. More Zeros and Oscars
2. More Naka engines
3. Begin R&D for Tojo/Tony
4. Convert some Merchant to Naval Shipyard.
5. Accelerate Naval: All CV's, or at least the '42 ones
6. Turn OFF all Merchant Construction, except AOs. Accelerate CVEs. Convert and Accelerate 2 MLEs, 2 ARs, and an AS. Convert but do not accelerate more Auxilliaries, probably 2 more MLEs, 4 more ARs, 3 more ASs. I don't like AVs or AEs, useless.
Alot of areas start short on supply, particularly PALAU. I find you can correct this quickly by loading a construction battalion Turn 1 onto AK's or something, and it will automatically fill with supplies. Dispatch turn 1, and it will sail almost all the way to where you need it.
In general, alot of units and ships are not in the right place. For ease of organization, I tend to consolidate all Home Islands Shipping thusly:
MERCHANT: Osaka. Also all reinforcements awaiting transport moved to Osaka. This is just easier to manage; we can see all available transport and all units awaiting. This means collecting many many spare ships turn one from all over the place.
Force Z will go away if an umbrella of Bettys is over the DEI. Or get sunk, either way is fine with me!
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Strategy
Brad,
Let's hold off on the actual working of the turn a bit and talk assignments so we can fit it to strategy.
Readers: Brad and I have discussed several strategic options and the beginnings of directed strategy.
I think we need to divide up the Pacific into Sphere's of Responsibility. Let us go through the things that we have settled on SO FAR. I have written in italics proposals for troops use and concepts:
The Philippines
Small Invasion of Luzon with 2 Inf Div and support units to tie down the Allies and turn Luzon into a nice aerial training ground.
The capture of central and southern PHilippines by use of one or two Brigades/Regiments and supports.
Malaya
The RAPID destruction of Singapore.
Instead of landing anywhere along the eastern coastof Malaya how about land 3+ Inf Divisions and strong Artillery at Singora and drive south as quickly as possible?
Burma
A powerful, quick thrust into Burma with the intent of capturing ALL of Burma by March 1942.
I would propose the use of 3 Inf Div and 3 Tank Reg with strong support to crossover from Rahaeng.
India
The invasion of eastern India to grab resources/HI/and whatever else is useful there.
While driving into Burma, my initial thoughts are to concentrate ALL of our Transports at an expanded Hanoi AF and then use the two Parachure Regiments to grab Ledo, fly in an Aviation Regiment, and then (under CAP protection) add a Brigade or two to gain a strong lodgement there.
Central/South Pacific
A 'limited' set of landings in Central and South Pacific with the minimum capture of Wake, Solomons, New Britain, New Guinea, and Port Moresby.
The capture of Luganville, Efate, and Noumea.
I've always used the South Seas Force AND another Inf Div plus some minor SNLF/Nvl Guard to grab these locations quickly before they can be too heavily reinforced. We must additionally send several large Aviation Regiments to man and build-up the airfields.
China
John Refrain----"I HATE CHINA."
1. We've decided to try and clear out the Chinese partisans behind Japanese lines and attempt to clear out the southern area for quick flow of oil and resources.
2. There are a number of partial strength Japanese Brigades in Brian's Mod that are CHEAP to purchase for deployment elsewhere that we can move to Shanghai or Hong Kong and buy them out as fast as possible, let them build-up to full strength and then use them elsewhere.
December 7th Attack Proposals
I REALLY like hitting both Manila and Pearl Harbor! Our House Rules allow for that so here is what I propose:
Pearl Harbor Strike---Hit Pearl with the 1st and 5th Carrier Divisions (Akagi/Kaga/Shokaku/Zuikaku). This is a weakened strike but it still will manage to damage all the BBs and (hopefully) put some of the cruisers located there into a rough state. After hitting PH the KB-1 retires towards Kwajalein to support Amphib activities in Central/SE Pacific.
Manila Strike---Concentrate ALL over CVs 2-3 hexes west of Manila (Hiryu, Soryu, Ryuho, Zuiho, CVE Taiyo, CVE Hosho) and hit that concentration of shipping and subs. Once they have done this, seperate them into 2 TF--Hiryu/Soryu./Zuiho and Ryho with 2 CVEs. These carriers then set-up to wipe out ALL shipping trying to flee the Philippines. Once complete they can then support thrusts into Central DEI (Tarakan/Balikpapan) and Eastern DEI (Amboina and Timor.
How do we want to handle all of this?
I will pull up Brian's Mod and try to find all the Inf Div and Brigade numbers and add them to the AAR for our choices regarding landings and areas of use.
Brad--What do you want to handle within the assault?
These are my intial thoughts and ideas. NOTHING is set. I hope we can exchange thoughts here so people can read how things are set-up in a 2x2 and watch the formulation of Strategy.
Let's hold off on the actual working of the turn a bit and talk assignments so we can fit it to strategy.
Readers: Brad and I have discussed several strategic options and the beginnings of directed strategy.
I think we need to divide up the Pacific into Sphere's of Responsibility. Let us go through the things that we have settled on SO FAR. I have written in italics proposals for troops use and concepts:
The Philippines
Small Invasion of Luzon with 2 Inf Div and support units to tie down the Allies and turn Luzon into a nice aerial training ground.
The capture of central and southern PHilippines by use of one or two Brigades/Regiments and supports.
Malaya
The RAPID destruction of Singapore.
Instead of landing anywhere along the eastern coastof Malaya how about land 3+ Inf Divisions and strong Artillery at Singora and drive south as quickly as possible?
Burma
A powerful, quick thrust into Burma with the intent of capturing ALL of Burma by March 1942.
I would propose the use of 3 Inf Div and 3 Tank Reg with strong support to crossover from Rahaeng.
India
The invasion of eastern India to grab resources/HI/and whatever else is useful there.
While driving into Burma, my initial thoughts are to concentrate ALL of our Transports at an expanded Hanoi AF and then use the two Parachure Regiments to grab Ledo, fly in an Aviation Regiment, and then (under CAP protection) add a Brigade or two to gain a strong lodgement there.
Central/South Pacific
A 'limited' set of landings in Central and South Pacific with the minimum capture of Wake, Solomons, New Britain, New Guinea, and Port Moresby.
The capture of Luganville, Efate, and Noumea.
I've always used the South Seas Force AND another Inf Div plus some minor SNLF/Nvl Guard to grab these locations quickly before they can be too heavily reinforced. We must additionally send several large Aviation Regiments to man and build-up the airfields.
China
John Refrain----"I HATE CHINA."
1. We've decided to try and clear out the Chinese partisans behind Japanese lines and attempt to clear out the southern area for quick flow of oil and resources.
2. There are a number of partial strength Japanese Brigades in Brian's Mod that are CHEAP to purchase for deployment elsewhere that we can move to Shanghai or Hong Kong and buy them out as fast as possible, let them build-up to full strength and then use them elsewhere.
December 7th Attack Proposals
I REALLY like hitting both Manila and Pearl Harbor! Our House Rules allow for that so here is what I propose:
Pearl Harbor Strike---Hit Pearl with the 1st and 5th Carrier Divisions (Akagi/Kaga/Shokaku/Zuikaku). This is a weakened strike but it still will manage to damage all the BBs and (hopefully) put some of the cruisers located there into a rough state. After hitting PH the KB-1 retires towards Kwajalein to support Amphib activities in Central/SE Pacific.
Manila Strike---Concentrate ALL over CVs 2-3 hexes west of Manila (Hiryu, Soryu, Ryuho, Zuiho, CVE Taiyo, CVE Hosho) and hit that concentration of shipping and subs. Once they have done this, seperate them into 2 TF--Hiryu/Soryu./Zuiho and Ryho with 2 CVEs. These carriers then set-up to wipe out ALL shipping trying to flee the Philippines. Once complete they can then support thrusts into Central DEI (Tarakan/Balikpapan) and Eastern DEI (Amboina and Timor.
How do we want to handle all of this?
I will pull up Brian's Mod and try to find all the Inf Div and Brigade numbers and add them to the AAR for our choices regarding landings and areas of use.
Brad--What do you want to handle within the assault?
These are my intial thoughts and ideas. NOTHING is set. I hope we can exchange thoughts here so people can read how things are set-up in a 2x2 and watch the formulation of Strategy.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Strategy
STRATEGY:
John, I like all those ideas. I want to review the PARA idea into Ledo, but sounds bold. We need to look at the range required, and make sure we have the transports for it.
RE: Port attacks, you are reading my mind. Conventional Wisdom is not to split KB, but this early it doesn't matter; Car Div 1 and 5 can easily defeat the USN the first 3 months at least, until Hornet appears and the Buffalos are replaced at a minimum. Car Div 2 (Hiryu/Soryu), can then turkey shoot evacuees from PI, then support landings towards Timor.
I absolutely agree on skipping Khota Bharu. If we roll Alor Star fast, an east-coast landing is irrelevant. Either way, we just have to get to, and capture Singapore with all speed. This is the #1 objective, and anything to speed this up, we have to consider.
South Seas is already pointed to the Eastern Pacific, that makes sense. 1 Division is the only IJA troops we will allot to the E-Pac, everything else will be Navy. We will need construction troops and bases out there FAST to build airbases to Lvl 4. Miss Betty will be our early defense strategy while we move Westward to India with the bulk of our forces. We will deploy most of the GLEN subs out there to provide early-warning of Allied movements, and track CVs.
INITIAL PRODUCTION DECISIONS:
The first thing we will do before John's computer is up is work through the initial production decisions. I welcome feedback on this from both John and the WITP public.
SHIPS: Articulated in e-mail above. I don't see a need to build AK/AP/TK barring large losses, but let me know if I am wrong.
VEHICLES: Need to expand 50% or so at start, want to have pool large enough for mid-'42 Tank Div reinforcements
A/C ENGINES: Turn off useless types. For now, convert those all to Naka, and perhaps expand the Naka. Leave Mitsu alone for now.
ARMAMENTS and HI: Leave alone for now. Might expand ARM later, but doubt HI will ever be expanded.
AIRCRAFT: Here is where I could use some input. Some key questions on this. Note PDUs are ON with no restrictions:
IJA Aircraft Production
1. DO YOU NEED THE IJA DBs? I think NOT. I would like John's view, but I think we cancel all production, and convert units to level bombers ASAP.
2. WHAT ABOUT THE Ki-48 LILLY?: Some players say it is better for ASW or certain applications, but IMO the Lilly should be killed off. We will use in short-term, but I don't think we should produce more, and covert those units to Sally/Helen. But open on this.
3. SALLY or HELEN?: The Helen is very slightly better, but I actually prefer to produce the Sally in the short-run. Why? Because it uses Mitsu engines, which we have plenty of, and we really need all the Nakas for new Zeros and Oscars. As NAKA production expands, we will expand Helen, but I think SALLY should be the early-war IJA Standard.
So, I propose mostly SALLY production, with some early HELEN.
4. TOPSY: All transport production will be Topsy. That's easy.
5. OTHERS: All Nate, Ida, Babs production turned off to better types of course.
6. TONY v TOJO: I would like to know sooner which one we want to produce more of later. My take: 70% Tojo, and 30% Tony. Why? Tojo uses the Naka engine, which means we can switch that between types. The production is easier to manage, and the planes are very similar. Tony might be 1% better overall. Tojo is a better dogfighter.
IJN Productoin
1. ZERO: Will expand Zero, turn off Claude of course. Zero needs to be in the 150-ish range at this point at least.
2. NELL/BETTY: Nell factories will auto-convert in January, so we'll just turn them off and wait. Nell is close in capability, so no rush to convert those units.
3. FLOATPLANES: Need to produce Jake, and some Alf. I like the range of the Alf. Dave is useless. Not sure about the PETE; I have not used her as a fighter. Is this plane worth producing?
4. TRANSPORT: Tina and Tabby. Tina for range, Tabby for capacity.
-
Mike Solli
- Posts: 15993
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
RE: Strategy
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
INITIAL PRODUCTION DECISIONS:
SHIPS: Articulated in e-mail above. I don't see a need to build AK/AP/TK barring large losses, but let me know if I am wrong.
I'd keep the TKs and AOs going. Should losses be higher than expected, you'll never get them out fast enough to make a difference.
VEHICLES: Need to expand 50% or so at start, want to have pool large enough for mid-'42 Tank Div reinforcements
A/C ENGINES: Turn off useless types. For now, convert those all to Naka, and perhaps expand the Naka. Leave Mitsu alone for now.
ARMAMENTS and HI: Leave alone for now. Might expand ARM later, but doubt HI will ever be expanded.
Sounds good.
AIRCRAFT: Here is where I could use some input. Some key questions on this. Note PDUs are ON with no restrictions:
IJA Aircraft Production
1. DO YOU NEED THE IJA DBs? I think NOT. I would like John's view, but I think we cancel all production, and convert units to level bombers ASAP.
2. WHAT ABOUT THE Ki-48 LILLY?: Some players say it is better for ASW or certain applications, but IMO the Lilly should be killed off. We will use in short-term, but I don't think we should produce more, and covert those units to Sally/Helen. But open on this.
3. SALLY or HELEN?: The Helen is very slightly better, but I actually prefer to produce the Sally in the short-run. Why? Because it uses Mitsu engines, which we have plenty of, and we really need all the Nakas for new Zeros and Oscars. As NAKA production expands, we will expand Helen, but I think SALLY should be the early-war IJA Standard.
So, I propose mostly SALLY production, with some early HELEN.
4. TOPSY: All transport production will be Topsy. That's easy.
5. OTHERS: All Nate, Ida, Babs production turned off to better types of course.
6. TONY v TOJO: I would like to know sooner which one we want to produce more of later. My take: 70% Tojo, and 30% Tony. Why? Tojo uses the Naka engine, which means we can switch that between types. The production is easier to manage, and the planes are very similar. Tony might be 1% better overall. Tojo is a better dogfighter.
1. I agree. Don't build any IJA DBs. I use them initially against shipping. They're not bad against merchant ships. This period last only a month, maybe, as the Allied ships flee the SRA. After that, I keep at least 1 Sentai of each to keep the ability to use them. I use them for ASW work in choke points.
2. I personally don't upgrade Light Bomber units to Sally or Helen. In that case, the Lily is the best alternative. If you do, then the Sally or Helen is definitely better. If you're going to use the Lily up, I'd recomment using them in China. Better survival there.
3. I'm not familiar with this mod, but if the Sally factory autoupgrades to the Helen (it does in CHS), then your decision is made for you. It appears by your comments that it doesn't. If that is the case, and they are similar, I'd produce both to keep your options open. You can always shut off production of one kind if their engines are in short supply. If you play like I do, when the Allied air force grows exponentially, you'll probably withdraw many of your IJA bombers from frontline service and delegate them to ASW.
4. Yup.
5. I agree. The one thing I have learned is that every Japanese plane has a use. The ones you have mentioned are great for training. No reason to smear a frontline aircraft into a mountainside with a trainee in the cockpit. May as well use something expendable.
6. In my current PBEM, I'm producing Tony-Tojo in about a 2:1 ratio. Next game, I'll try for even amounts of each. I find that they work well together. My intent will be to deploy them in pairs.
IJN Productoin
1. ZERO: Will expand Zero, turn off Claude of course. Zero needs to be in the 150-ish range at this point at least.
2. NELL/BETTY: Nell factories will auto-convert in January, so we'll just turn them off and wait. Nell is close in capability, so no rush to convert those units.
3. FLOATPLANES: Need to produce Jake, and some Alf. I like the range of the Alf. Dave is useless. Not sure about the PETE; I have not used her as a fighter. Is this plane worth producing?
4. TRANSPORT: Tina and Tabby. Tina for range, Tabby for capacity.
1. Agree. Claude is the trainer. I aim for about 200 Zero, mainly to convert the Claudes on map to Zero as quickly as possible so I can exploit the Zero bonus to the max possible. I shut off as needed. (I usually increase the Oscar to about 150.)
2. Agree. The one change I've made is to keep the Nell factory on. The extra planes in the pool can't hurt.
3. Agree. I still use the Dave and Pete where I have ASW in the same hex (range 0). Their short range in immaterial there. I do that at sea to protect a convoy.
4. Agree.
Created by the amazing Dixie
RE: Strategy
Hey Mike! Thanks for jumping in with your thoughts!
Regarding the Air Industry:
1. I would like to see Zeros settle in at about 200/Month. Never have enough!
2. Double Betty Production but let Nells keep producing for stockpile.
3. Double Val/Kate
4. Expand Jack Research fast! Every month that the Jack comes in early will be a wonderful thing for our Naval LBA.
5. Produce Tojo/Tony evenly but TRY to bring them in early. I like to keep my well-trained Oscar Sentai intact until those good Army planes come in.
6. Sometimes I shift early-Frank Research into one of those two types to bring it in WAY early. Once I do that then I shift back to Frank Research. IT is all about trade-offs...
7. Engines: Agree with Nagasaki. Increase Kawasaki as well. The more that are waiting for Tony then the better so we can bring the plane on-line ASAP.
8. Double Emily production. Cannot have too many of them flying!
As to ship-building:
1. Accelerate all early Japanese CV/CVL.
2. Freeze Shinano.
3. Try to get Yamato and Musashi finished as fast as possible so they stop plugging up the Naval Yards!
4. Once Hiyo/Junyo are finshed accelerate Taiho.
5. I concur with Mike about keeping all AO/TK building.
6. I would build more ARs and MLE. I REALLY like MLE to be able to mine anywhere I want. I think we should start at least a dozen AR conversions and 4 MLE. Once the initial ARs start getting finished then we do another dozen or so.
7. We cannot forget the CVEs. They are highly useful and come from the Merchant pool (if I remember right)...
Regarding the Air Industry:
1. I would like to see Zeros settle in at about 200/Month. Never have enough!
2. Double Betty Production but let Nells keep producing for stockpile.
3. Double Val/Kate
4. Expand Jack Research fast! Every month that the Jack comes in early will be a wonderful thing for our Naval LBA.
5. Produce Tojo/Tony evenly but TRY to bring them in early. I like to keep my well-trained Oscar Sentai intact until those good Army planes come in.
6. Sometimes I shift early-Frank Research into one of those two types to bring it in WAY early. Once I do that then I shift back to Frank Research. IT is all about trade-offs...
7. Engines: Agree with Nagasaki. Increase Kawasaki as well. The more that are waiting for Tony then the better so we can bring the plane on-line ASAP.
8. Double Emily production. Cannot have too many of them flying!
As to ship-building:
1. Accelerate all early Japanese CV/CVL.
2. Freeze Shinano.
3. Try to get Yamato and Musashi finished as fast as possible so they stop plugging up the Naval Yards!
4. Once Hiyo/Junyo are finshed accelerate Taiho.
5. I concur with Mike about keeping all AO/TK building.
6. I would build more ARs and MLE. I REALLY like MLE to be able to mine anywhere I want. I think we should start at least a dozen AR conversions and 4 MLE. Once the initial ARs start getting finished then we do another dozen or so.
7. We cannot forget the CVEs. They are highly useful and come from the Merchant pool (if I remember right)...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
-
Mike Solli
- Posts: 15993
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
RE: Strategy
A couple more comments:
My PBEM is stock and in May 43. I had my air force in Rangoon socked in by weather and was hit on the ground losing 389 planes a few game months ago. Since then I've had a shortage of Bettys. Yup, I'd double Betty production.
I've also had a nagging shortage of Emilys. I'm producing 32 a month and it's still not enough.
Jacks are definitely the way to go. I love them.
I usually start 12 ARs and 4 MLEs and accelerate 2 and 1 respecively. When they're completed, I accelerate another 2 and 1 and put another 2 and 1 in the pool (or some combination of 3).
My PBEM is stock and in May 43. I had my air force in Rangoon socked in by weather and was hit on the ground losing 389 planes a few game months ago. Since then I've had a shortage of Bettys. Yup, I'd double Betty production.
I've also had a nagging shortage of Emilys. I'm producing 32 a month and it's still not enough.
Jacks are definitely the way to go. I love them.
I usually start 12 ARs and 4 MLEs and accelerate 2 and 1 respecively. When they're completed, I accelerate another 2 and 1 and put another 2 and 1 in the pool (or some combination of 3).
Created by the amazing Dixie
RE: Strategy
Good comments!
Sally does not upgrade to Helen. Both will be produced.
I did not touch on R&D, but yes, Tojo/Tony, then Jack are the priorities. Can't do everything at once or we will run low on Supplies. I would probably start Tojo/Tony research, but hold off on Jack for a couple months at least, to make sure we don't run low on supplies. My understanding of research is that the availability date rarely moves more than 6 months out; you are really aiming to have the R&D lines up by that date. Anything earlier isn't as useful. That would mean a 9/42 target on the Jack. Subtract the 4 months or so to build the lines, we need to get started no later than 4/42-ish.
Expansion, same thing. Didn't touch on that, but we need more Oscars and other lines.
The AO's were on my list, as well as accelerating the CVEs. I haven't ever run low on TKs, maybe I have had better luck protecting them. We can produce a few for cushion. I would rather run low on Merchant points than Naval though.
Sally does not upgrade to Helen. Both will be produced.
I did not touch on R&D, but yes, Tojo/Tony, then Jack are the priorities. Can't do everything at once or we will run low on Supplies. I would probably start Tojo/Tony research, but hold off on Jack for a couple months at least, to make sure we don't run low on supplies. My understanding of research is that the availability date rarely moves more than 6 months out; you are really aiming to have the R&D lines up by that date. Anything earlier isn't as useful. That would mean a 9/42 target on the Jack. Subtract the 4 months or so to build the lines, we need to get started no later than 4/42-ish.
Expansion, same thing. Didn't touch on that, but we need more Oscars and other lines.
The AO's were on my list, as well as accelerating the CVEs. I haven't ever run low on TKs, maybe I have had better luck protecting them. We can produce a few for cushion. I would rather run low on Merchant points than Naval though.
RE: Strategy
Brad and I have been emailing back-and-forth chatting strategy and differing starts the the campaign. I am currently downloading (with Michael's help) Tracker so that is available for use.
I want to track down all the Japanese major infantry units so we know what is available and where they can be best used.
I want to track down all the Japanese major infantry units so we know what is available and where they can be best used.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Proposed Division fo Labor
Brad,
Here is a proposal for work usage and control by you:
1. The capture of Malaya and reduction of Singapore.
2. The DEI/Philippines
3. All SS Control
4. After some discussion--the entire economy.
I would handle:
1. Central and SE Pacific
2. The Invasion of Burma and drive on India
3. Northern Pacific
Joint Control:
1. China
2. Manchuria
If we can agree upon responsibilities then we should be able to divide the assets. I just completed a list of all major Infantry units, major Aviation/Base Force units, Tank Regiments, Engineering Reg, and HQ Units. I will post this onto the the AAR and we can start dividing from there.
Additionally you would control all Fleet units starting in the DEI Region (once we have moved everything around for the start of the war). The only concern I have would be working with just CarDiv 1 and 5 to hold off and destroy the Americans. Perhaps you could maintain control of CV/CVL near Manila for a week or so then I could pull a couple eastwards for operations there?
A lot of thoughts here. I am also going to post this on the AAR. Perhaps you should respond there while I write-up the list of major units?
Here is a proposal for work usage and control by you:
1. The capture of Malaya and reduction of Singapore.
2. The DEI/Philippines
3. All SS Control
4. After some discussion--the entire economy.
I would handle:
1. Central and SE Pacific
2. The Invasion of Burma and drive on India
3. Northern Pacific
Joint Control:
1. China
2. Manchuria
If we can agree upon responsibilities then we should be able to divide the assets. I just completed a list of all major Infantry units, major Aviation/Base Force units, Tank Regiments, Engineering Reg, and HQ Units. I will post this onto the the AAR and we can start dividing from there.
Additionally you would control all Fleet units starting in the DEI Region (once we have moved everything around for the start of the war). The only concern I have would be working with just CarDiv 1 and 5 to hold off and destroy the Americans. Perhaps you could maintain control of CV/CVL near Manila for a week or so then I could pull a couple eastwards for operations there?
A lot of thoughts here. I am also going to post this on the AAR. Perhaps you should respond there while I write-up the list of major units?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Major Japanese Forces at Start
Names and Locations of the Major Japanese Units
Infantry Divisions
2nd ID--Kagoshima, 56th ID--Osaka, 4th ID--Shanghai, 16th ID--Aamai, 48th ID--Pescadores, 38th ID--Hong Kong, 18th ID--Samah, 5th ID--Samah, 21st ID--Hanoi, 33rd ID (Burma Command)--31,36, 55th ID (Burma Command)--Bangkok, and Imperial Guards--Bangkok.
Brigades and Regiments
65th Brig--Pescadores, 1st/2nd Parachute--Kiungshan, 35th Brig--CRB, 4th Mix Reg--Bien Hoa, 4th Mix Brig/21st Mix Brig/23rd Mix Brig--Saigon, 56th Brig--Palau, and South Seas Force--Guam .
Tank Regiments
8th Tk--Kagoshima, 7th Tk--Pescadores, 1st Tk--Bangkok, and 2nd/6th/14th Tk--Samah
Engineering Regiments
1st Eng--Kagoshima, 3rd/21st Eng--Pescadores, and 4th/5th/15th/23rd--Samah
Aviation Regiments/Base Forces (not assigned to Southern Area Army)
SE Fleet
8th BF--Kyoto, 24th Spec BF--Sasebo, 14th Base Force--Hiroshima, 4th Base Force--Taichu,
4th Fleet
4th Base Force--Toyko and 30th Spec Base Force--Palau
Burma
119th IJNAF--Kompong and 123rd IJA Bangkok
Headquarters/Command Units (not assigned S.A.A.)
SE Fleet/4th Fleet
(to Move) 16th Army--Kagoshima, Combined Fleet--Hiroshima, and 1st Fleet--Hiroshima
Burma
Burma Area Army--Luangprabang, 3rd Air Division--Kompong, and 15th Army--Bangkok
I don't include Northern Area Command because there are only a few units to start with up there.
Infantry Divisions
2nd ID--Kagoshima, 56th ID--Osaka, 4th ID--Shanghai, 16th ID--Aamai, 48th ID--Pescadores, 38th ID--Hong Kong, 18th ID--Samah, 5th ID--Samah, 21st ID--Hanoi, 33rd ID (Burma Command)--31,36, 55th ID (Burma Command)--Bangkok, and Imperial Guards--Bangkok.
Brigades and Regiments
65th Brig--Pescadores, 1st/2nd Parachute--Kiungshan, 35th Brig--CRB, 4th Mix Reg--Bien Hoa, 4th Mix Brig/21st Mix Brig/23rd Mix Brig--Saigon, 56th Brig--Palau, and South Seas Force--Guam .
Tank Regiments
8th Tk--Kagoshima, 7th Tk--Pescadores, 1st Tk--Bangkok, and 2nd/6th/14th Tk--Samah
Engineering Regiments
1st Eng--Kagoshima, 3rd/21st Eng--Pescadores, and 4th/5th/15th/23rd--Samah
Aviation Regiments/Base Forces (not assigned to Southern Area Army)
SE Fleet
8th BF--Kyoto, 24th Spec BF--Sasebo, 14th Base Force--Hiroshima, 4th Base Force--Taichu,
4th Fleet
4th Base Force--Toyko and 30th Spec Base Force--Palau
Burma
119th IJNAF--Kompong and 123rd IJA Bangkok
Headquarters/Command Units (not assigned S.A.A.)
SE Fleet/4th Fleet
(to Move) 16th Army--Kagoshima, Combined Fleet--Hiroshima, and 1st Fleet--Hiroshima
Burma
Burma Area Army--Luangprabang, 3rd Air Division--Kompong, and 15th Army--Bangkok
I don't include Northern Area Command because there are only a few units to start with up there.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
Major Japanese Forces at Start
I've been going through the order of battle and am thinking of the following attack groupings:
Philippines
Grab Batan with an SNLF and Aviation Reg on the 7th.
Northern Luzon Landing about 12/10:
65th Brigade and 48th Inf Div with the 38th (at Hong Kong) joining the attack as soon as possible. Other units could be added such as artillery, engineers, and a Tk Reg.
Malaya
Land the 5th, 16th, and 18th Inf Div at Singora on Dec 7th. Add support troops to that as well as an Aviation Regiment.
Imperial Guards arrives a few days later to lend crushing support to the assault. A Tk Regiment clear Tavoy and Victoria Point.
Burma
This attack will take a couple weeks to develop but would include the following: 33rd and 55th Inf Div with 3 Tk Reg lending an armored punch to the attack that will go through Rahaeng.
Once the assault has captured Rangoon, the highly risky Parachute assault will be launched at a city in the Ledo Region. Both Para units, an Aviation Reg, the 4th Mixed Reg, and 35th Brigade will be used for the assault and capture of this region. Pending on the fall of Singapore, this attack might be augmented by troops from their Malaya Campaign.
SE Pacific
South Seas Detechment and 56th Inf Div, plus a couple of artillery units and a BUNCH of small Construction units will gather at Truk to begin the campaign for Rabaul, and PM.
Central Pacific
This area will be reinforced by several Naval Guard and SNLF units, small construction units, and several Aviation units.
Major Units Still Available
2nd Inf Div at Kagoshima
4th Inf Div at Shanghai
21st Inf Div at Hanoi
4th/21st/23rd Brigades at Saigon
56th Brigade at Palau
8th Tk Reg at Kagoshima
What do people think of these early Operational thoughts?
Philippines
Grab Batan with an SNLF and Aviation Reg on the 7th.
Northern Luzon Landing about 12/10:
65th Brigade and 48th Inf Div with the 38th (at Hong Kong) joining the attack as soon as possible. Other units could be added such as artillery, engineers, and a Tk Reg.
Malaya
Land the 5th, 16th, and 18th Inf Div at Singora on Dec 7th. Add support troops to that as well as an Aviation Regiment.
Imperial Guards arrives a few days later to lend crushing support to the assault. A Tk Regiment clear Tavoy and Victoria Point.
Burma
This attack will take a couple weeks to develop but would include the following: 33rd and 55th Inf Div with 3 Tk Reg lending an armored punch to the attack that will go through Rahaeng.
Once the assault has captured Rangoon, the highly risky Parachute assault will be launched at a city in the Ledo Region. Both Para units, an Aviation Reg, the 4th Mixed Reg, and 35th Brigade will be used for the assault and capture of this region. Pending on the fall of Singapore, this attack might be augmented by troops from their Malaya Campaign.
SE Pacific
South Seas Detechment and 56th Inf Div, plus a couple of artillery units and a BUNCH of small Construction units will gather at Truk to begin the campaign for Rabaul, and PM.
Central Pacific
This area will be reinforced by several Naval Guard and SNLF units, small construction units, and several Aviation units.
Major Units Still Available
2nd Inf Div at Kagoshima
4th Inf Div at Shanghai
21st Inf Div at Hanoi
4th/21st/23rd Brigades at Saigon
56th Brigade at Palau
8th Tk Reg at Kagoshima
What do people think of these early Operational thoughts?
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Major Japanese Forces at Start
Brad and I just had this email exchange on Strategy:
Brad to Me:
Saw the troop assignments. I have a party after work tommorow to go to, so tommorow can't do much. I will send the turn file later tonight with my changes so far.
The main surface threats the first two weeks are Force Z, the various Dutch/US Cruisers including infamous Boise, and Crace's Cruisers in the SW Pac. The biggest threat is force Z; even if BB's are present, they are likely to suffer damage. Nagato and Mutsu (BatDiv 1) are enough to fight them off if they pop up. We also need some BB support on the thrust to Timor. 2 BCs should be plenty to counter Crace's cruisers.
Does splitting the Manila strike to two hexes effect the strike? If not, those CV's should be split; actually the more likely escape route is to the east, and this is also the direction we are most likely to need them later. Once Kuching falls and is established, we can get by with a couple BB's and Zero support to cover landings.
I understand the Cagayan strike, but I wonder if the planes at Singapore are more of a threat, particularly the British Torp Bombers.
Me to Brad:
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;
I ran that initial naval turn again for you to look at. I decided to try splitting the smaller CVs on each side of Luzon so you could then prevent the escape of Allied shipping from the central Phil area. Ignoring the S-Boat putting a torp into Soryu (Arggh) the turn ends up in pretty good shape for warships ending in differing areas.
Your concern regarding covering a Kuching landing is valid. If you look at Saigon you will see Mutsu and Nagato there for invasion coverage.
Take a look and let me know. You would have the SS to move about and place wherever you want. I think I would just like the Ro-Boats north and south of the Marshalls plus a couple of Glen-SS and I am fine for Sub work. If you have been successful with using them then let her rip!
I agree on knowing you won't be able to jump in every turn but if we do this then we can actually PLAN the opening round.
China BAFFLES you? I HATE CHINA!
[/align]
Brad to Me:
Saw the troop assignments. I have a party after work tommorow to go to, so tommorow can't do much. I will send the turn file later tonight with my changes so far.
The main surface threats the first two weeks are Force Z, the various Dutch/US Cruisers including infamous Boise, and Crace's Cruisers in the SW Pac. The biggest threat is force Z; even if BB's are present, they are likely to suffer damage. Nagato and Mutsu (BatDiv 1) are enough to fight them off if they pop up. We also need some BB support on the thrust to Timor. 2 BCs should be plenty to counter Crace's cruisers.
Does splitting the Manila strike to two hexes effect the strike? If not, those CV's should be split; actually the more likely escape route is to the east, and this is also the direction we are most likely to need them later. Once Kuching falls and is established, we can get by with a couple BB's and Zero support to cover landings.
I understand the Cagayan strike, but I wonder if the planes at Singapore are more of a threat, particularly the British Torp Bombers.
Me to Brad:
.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;
I ran that initial naval turn again for you to look at. I decided to try splitting the smaller CVs on each side of Luzon so you could then prevent the escape of Allied shipping from the central Phil area. Ignoring the S-Boat putting a torp into Soryu (Arggh) the turn ends up in pretty good shape for warships ending in differing areas.
Your concern regarding covering a Kuching landing is valid. If you look at Saigon you will see Mutsu and Nagato there for invasion coverage.
Take a look and let me know. You would have the SS to move about and place wherever you want. I think I would just like the Ro-Boats north and south of the Marshalls plus a couple of Glen-SS and I am fine for Sub work. If you have been successful with using them then let her rip!
I agree on knowing you won't be able to jump in every turn but if we do this then we can actually PLAN the opening round.
China BAFFLES you? I HATE CHINA!
[/align]
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Major Japanese Forces at Start
As an avid reader of John's adventures with Dan, I've got to follow this.
I do have a couple of questions.
1) Won't a 4 CV strike against Pearl not yield rather anemic results? An combined attack against Singapore and Manila could pay off better.
2) Why do want to accelerate the early CVs and CVLs? That will cost a LOT of shipbuilding points.
A small example: a single hypothetical 60 durability CV would need 180 points each day if accelerated. At normal construction speed it would only need 60 points. That would leave you 120 points for other things. My personal suggestion would be to accelerate ~10 DDs that are beyond the (10x durability) days mark. As Japan you can never have enough DDs.
I do have a couple of questions.
1) Won't a 4 CV strike against Pearl not yield rather anemic results? An combined attack against Singapore and Manila could pay off better.
2) Why do want to accelerate the early CVs and CVLs? That will cost a LOT of shipbuilding points.
A small example: a single hypothetical 60 durability CV would need 180 points each day if accelerated. At normal construction speed it would only need 60 points. That would leave you 120 points for other things. My personal suggestion would be to accelerate ~10 DDs that are beyond the (10x durability) days mark. As Japan you can never have enough DDs.
RE: Proposed House Rules
ORIGINAL: John 3rd
HOUSE RULES – Big B’s 2x2[/b]
No Allied CV Capable air units on CV's until 1/44 - designed to keep Marine Fighter groups off CV's
Why isn't there a similar rule for japanese air units? (with the exception of the cve's) They only operated with their organic units iirc.
And besides, the CVE's couldn't fit an second generation aircraft in their hangars either (jill's, grace's etc.). so...
Surface combat TF fanboy
RE: Major Japanese Forces at Start
ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Malaya
Land the 5th, 16th, and 18th Inf Div at Singora on Dec 7th. Add support troops to that as well as an Aviation Regiment.
Imperial Guards arrives a few days later to lend crushing support to the assault. A Tk Regiment clear Tavoy and Victoria Point.
Be aware that Singora is a size 1 port - so unloading is VERY slow (it least it has been for me in a BigB 1.4 game I recently started).
You might need to allocate more shipping so they are less than half filled to speed up the unloading.
Wish I'd known about Brian's new v1.5 two weeks ago [:(]
You both obviously went for a geographical split of forces - did you ever consider an IJA / IJN division of responsibility?
Might have made for interesting co-op play (IJA air units from IJAF BFs only, IJN air units from IJNAF BFs / one player IJN, other merchants / Divs &REgts for one, NLF & NG for the other etc).
RE: Major Japanese Forces at Start
ORIGINAL: Rainer79
1) Won't a 4 CV strike against Pearl not yield rather anemic results? An combined attack against Singapore and Manila could pay off better.
You're right in that it blunts the PH attack. From testing it still causes damage, 1 BB sinks about 50% of the time. The main reason is positioning; having CV's in places that we need on Dec 8th. Singapore is tempting, but Manila a better target.
[/quote]
2) Why do want to accelerate the early CVs and CVLs? That will cost a LOT of shipbuilding points.
A small example: a single hypothetical 60 durability CV would need 180 points each day if accelerated. At normal construction speed it would only need 60 points. That would leave you 120 points for other things. My personal suggestion would be to accelerate ~10 DDs that are beyond the (10x durability) days mark. As Japan you can never have enough DDs.[/quote]
Not a bad point, but DD shortage depends on how quickly you lose them. I think a CV is more important than 6 DDs, unless it gets very critical there. We start with 110 DDs, maybe 90 "real" DDs, so we won't be critical unless we suffer large losses.
ORIGINAL: String
Why isn't there a similar rule for japanese air units? (with the exception of the cve's) They only operated with their organic units iirc.
And besides, the CVE's couldn't fit an second generation aircraft in their hangars either (jill's, grace's etc.). so...
There is a precedent for LBA on IJN CV's, most notably Midway, where land-based Zeros flew CAP off IJN CV's. I can't think of an instance of that happening in the USN. That rule is also to specifically prohibit the Corsair, which was not used on CVs until 1944. I don't think a wholesale swap of air units though is kosher, like moving off all DBs for more fighters; too gamey. I'm sure you're right on the CVEs, oh well, house rules are set!
ORIGINAL: FOW
Be aware that Singora is a size 1 port - so unloading is VERY slow (it least it has been for me in a BigB 1.4 game I recently started).
You might need to allocate more shipping so they are less than half filled to speed up the unloading.
You both obviously went for a geographical split of forces - did you ever consider an IJA / IJN division of responsibility?
Might have made for interesting co-op play (IJA air units from IJAF BFs only, IJN air units from IJNAF BFs / one player IJN, other merchants / Divs &REgts for one, NLF & NG for the other etc).
Good point on Singora, though it's not like unloading at Khota Bharu is any faster. FYI, still going to bombard the AF there, just not land any troops.
As far as IJN/IJA, that is probably more realistic actually, but not helpful to actually win unfortunately.