Law of armour combat in CC …

[Grollub]

Added 23rd Jan 2009; To avoid misunderstandings; What is written below is supposed to be read as "Murphy's Law in CC", not taken literally.

• If you order a tank to move 10 meters straight ahead on an open field to help a duelling tank, there’s a 50/50 chance that it will respond with either “Can’t reach target”, or it will immediately turn 180 degrees and start doing a “bumblebee imitation” (going all over the place except where it is supposed to go).
• In a duelling situation where your three tanks fire first, you will at best immobilize the target, whereas the enemy first shot will knock out one of your tanks. This applies in 90% of the cases.
• When ordering a tank to move over a bridge, it must always move to and check the integrity of both the left and right side bridge foundations before even starting to roll over the bridge (50%). Of the other 50%, there’s an even chance that it will either start doing the “bumblebee imitation”, or coming to the conclusion that it has more pressing matters to deal with somewhere far to the rear of your deployment.
• When moving across an open field, if there is a single tree on the field, there is an even chance of your tank moving to the tree and throwing a track there. This applies if the tree isn’t directly in the tanks path. If it is, the chance goes up to 75%.
• The enemy can always see you and shoot at your tanks through trees, whereas the opposite isn’t true. If being fired upon this way, the enemy’s first shot will always immobilize your tank, making it impossible to move to a firing spot where you could engage the enemy.
• Your tank crews learned at armour school that if given the “Defend” order, that’s just a recommendation to turn the turret in the given direction. Never mind that you are brazenly showing your well protected side or rear at the enemy tank. If the commander meant turning the entire tank, he would have given some sort of move order. If he did, you can always tell him "Can't reach target" or do “the imitation” …
• Your Bazooka/Panzerschreck crews will be KIA:ed just by looking in the direction of an enemy tank. The opposite isn’t true for the enemy Bazooka/PS teams, who will manage to squeeze away one more shot even if under heavy suppressing fire. This shot has at least an even chance of damaging your tank in some way.
• ?

Just to make myself clear – I enjoy this game immensely, though I obviously have some issues with it at times … [;)]

Just a side note; Yesterday I had one of those wonderful experiences this game can give you … I had three undetected PS teams firing at the side armour of an immobilized Sherman at ranges of 80-110m. All three teams later crawled away after exhausting their ammunition, without knocking out the tank … On the other hand, in the same battle I managed to fire one single mortar shell that (for once) went exactly where I wanted it to. It landed smack in the middle of a moving command team, instantly killing or incapacitating the entire team [:)]

[drrowley]

add more to this garbage-

i think if i heard 'no clear path' one more time i'd put my fist through the monitor.
(tried ordering tank to cross bridge. used way points up the center. 'no clear path'.
then put destination accross the bridge. tank went down left side to water's edge, over to
right side to water's edge. stoped in front of the bridged and "bumblebee'd" and finally
it crossed).

why is it computer never seems to 'throw a track'?

seeing through trees is not the only time. i have, several times in villages, had computer tanks, seemingly, shoot around corners.
one particular time, i had 3 sherman-75's all shooting a one panther. other than immoblized, it was still combat capable and
it couldn't get a shot at ANY of the shermans. i have watched computer unit manuever to those free shot areas.

suppressing fire doesn't seemed to work against for any computer unit, not just AT teams. and now, there is the armoured platoon
commander. several games i have caught him out in the open, in one case, 2 mg teams and a tank was firing at him. took 5 min
to kill him and the entire time, he was firing back.

i play'd the orginal cc4 when it first came out. i 'do not' see any difference from it and this new version.

i have always hated the battle field setup, most of them, your so close, when the lights turn on, your toe-toe with oppenent. where's
the manuevering? thats a real battle. all of instances, how could units get so close to be undedectable?

i have quite playing it again, computer cheats just drive me nuts.

[Platoon_Michael]

I don't now about CC5 and havent played enough of WAR (waiting for the patch)
But I never liked how in the original CCIV tanks could fire and move at the same time if they came under fire during there original order of "Move To"
But you can't command them to do just that.

[Svend Karlson]

ORIGINAL: daver

why is it computer never seems to 'throw a track'?

suppressing fire doesn't seemed to work against for any computer unit, not just AT teams.

Sharing my experience -

I find the computer throws tracks and becomes immobilised far more than I do, albeit because the computer is more willing to move through wooded and other risky areas. In my last battle, 3 out of 7 tanks on the computer side became immobilised in the first 2 minutes of a battle as they were moving across rough and wooded terrain towards a victory location. In fact I experience the computer having it's own armor immobilised so frequently that I intend to lower the chance of throwing a track in order to remove this handicap.


I do find that suppressing fire 'works'. When a mortar shell drops or an opposing infantry team comes under fire, the drop in the volume of their fire is observable. At the times when I can see the status of the individuals in an opposing squad, I can also see their status change to the 'scared/panicked' where they effectively do nothing at all. If I were to play with the ability to see all opposing squads all the time, I expect it would be far easier to observe the effect of suppressing fire.

[Tejszd]

Daver you are entitled to your opinion but;
- Pathing is better than it was CC4 (believe it or not), plus it has been posted that bridge crossing problems would be looked at again as part of the next patch.
-  AI/Computer does throw tracks and like Svend Karlson said more than the human player as the AI doesn’t seem to hesitate to take vehicles off road
- One way targeting is usually explainable if you looked at the map coding (elements and height). Keep in mind the graphic you see is just that, something the players sees but the AI/Computer uses the element and height codes which should but do not always match the graphics perfectly.
- I agree with Svend Karlson suppressing fire seems to work
- WAR has a lot of changes from CC4, though in battle the  number of changes is/was limited.
- WAR maps are bigger than CC4 and the CC4 maps still included were enlarged to prevent some of the immediate fire fights seen CC4.
- Once the next patch is out try the game again maybe a few of the fixes will improve how you feel about the game. But I do not think there are AI cheats in the AI, the biggest complaint people have with the AI is that it is too easy….

[Southernland]

As Tejzed said I've seen the AI tanks lose mobility a hell of a lot.   When you exit the battle check the AI losses and generally speaking any armour counted as damaged has come unstuck trying to traverse rough terrain.   Last time I played on Meyerode the AI lost 5 tanks immobilised.
 
As regards vehicle pathing this has been a problem but has been dramatically improved in the new patch (not sure about release date) to a point where I can lay 5 waypoints and have a Htrack get from the bottom of the trios ponts map to the top via the muddy track and across a bridge without either untracking or hearing "can't go there"
 
I believe suppressing fire works and probably works accurately.  Consider team a is shooting at team b.  Team b drops suppression fire on them causing a breif cessation of fire until the team commander says "get off your lazy ... and shoot."   They respond for a while till forced back into cover.   This is what I'm seeing in many cases but the reaction is dependant on the morale and experience of the team being supressed
 
 
"The enemy can always see you and shoot at your tanks through trees, whereas the opposite isn’t true. If being fired upon this way, the enemy’s first shot will always immobilize your tank, making it impossible to move to a firing spot where you could engage the enemy. "
 
Remember the AI is a computer, it has access to all resources in the game, if a clear shot becomes available it will know and will take the shot while you may be focused elsewhere.   And lets face it the AI needs all the help it can get[:)]
 
Pzrsk teams, nope sorry mine have a very good survival rate, to the point where they're starting to clutter the forcepools and by the end of the GC I'm looking at having BGs composed of 50% shrek teams.  Don't use them as a bludgeon, they're AT snipers.

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: Grollub

• If you order a tank to move 10 meters straight ahead on an open field to help a duelling tank, there’s a 50/50 chance that it will respond with either “Can’t reach target”, or it will immediately turn 180 degrees and start doing a “bumblebee imitation” (going all over the place except where it is supposed to go).

Sorry, never experienced this in an open field. I've had it happen many times when the tank was near buildings, unnavigable terrain, or wrecks, but never open terrain.

[*] In a duelling situation where your three tanks fire first, you will at best immobilize the target, whereas the enemy first shot will knock out one of your tanks. This applies in 90% of the cases.

You must be playing as allies. I've had almost the opposite experience playing as the Germans. Usually my tanks get immobilized or get gun damage while the American tanks either get KO'd or take casualties from armor penetration.

[*] When ordering a tank to move over a bridge, it must always move to and check the integrity of both the left and right side bridge foundations before even starting to roll over the bridge (50%). Of the other 50%, there’s an even chance that it will either start doing the “bumblebee imitation”, or coming to the conclusion that it has more pressing matters to deal with somewhere far to the rear of your deployment.

Yes, it's annoying. This also happens in narrow streets where there is more than enough room for the tank visibly but the terrain coding behind the map is narrower than what is visibly shown. For bridges, the side walls are inaccessible to vehicles which makes the bridge quite a bit narrower than actually shown.

[*] When moving across an open field, if there is a single tree on the field, there is an even chance of your tank moving to the tree and throwing a track there. This applies if the tree isn’t directly in the tanks path. If it is, the chance goes up to 75%.

they are going to tone down the trees' ability to immobilize vehicles in the next patch.

[*] The enemy can always see you and shoot at your tanks through trees, whereas the opposite isn’t true. If being fired upon this way, the enemy’s first shot will always immobilize your tank, making it impossible to move to a firing spot where you could engage the enemy.

this is not even remotely true.

[*] Your tank crews learned at armour school that if given the “Defend” order, that’s just a recommendation to turn the turret in the given direction. Never mind that you are brazenly showing your well protected side or rear at the enemy tank. If the commander meant turning the entire tank, he would have given some sort of move order. If he did, you can always tell him "Can't reach target" or do “the imitation” …

I'm not sure what you're complaining about here. You can give tanks a defend order and change the facing of the entire tank with circular dial that pops up on top of the tank. It will change facing without moving to a new spot.

[*] Your Bazooka/Panzerschreck crews will be KIA:ed just by looking in the direction of an enemy tank. The opposite isn’t true for the enemy Bazooka/PS teams, who will manage to squeeze away one more shot even if under heavy suppressing fire. This shot has at least an even chance of damaging your tank in some way.

not even remotely true. I've changed the facing of many a schrek team while hidden and they've usually remained hidden. Besides, it's not necessary to change the facing of a schrek or zooka team. When they are given and order to shoot they will automatically change to the correct facing that is needed for the shot.

[Grollub]

Since English isn't my native langauge, it seems that I didn't manage to convey the real meaning of my post.

The post wasn't supposed to be read literally, rather as a poor attempt at humor by exaggeration. Not exaggeration by much, but still ...

Nevertheless, I also feel that I need to clarify some thing with regards to Pak40:s answers;

ORIGINAL: TheReal_Pak40

ORIGINAL: Grollub

this is not even remotely true.

Oh, yes it is. It has happened to me several times that one of my tanks have been fired upon and immobilized. When rightclicking and choosing "Fire" and trying to select to return fire at the firing tank, the "line" isn't green so I can't choose that tank as a target. The funny thing, however, is that if my tank survives the follow-on shots it ususally can target and fire at the attacker by itself. I couldn't order it to fire at that specific target, however. Almost all of these have happened at the "Meyerode" map.

I've even had one memorable moment where one of my Panthers knocked out a Sherman that wasn't even shown to me! It was acting in "Defense" mode, when it suddenly started to fire at something that I couldn't see depicted on the map. On the second shot, I got the message "M4A3(76) Sherman Is Burning", at which point the wreck was shown on the map.

[*] Your tank crews learned at armour school that if given the “Defend” order, that’s just a recommendation to turn the turret in the given direction. Never mind that you are brazenly showing your well protected side or rear at the enemy tank. If the commander meant turning the entire tank, he would have given some sort of move order. If he did, you can always tell him "Can't reach target" or do “the imitation” …

I'm not sure what you're complaining about here. You can give tanks a defend order and change the facing of the entire tank with circular dial that pops up on top of the tank. It will change facing without moving to a new spot

[/quote]
The main issue is that, IMHO, tanks takes far to long time responding to given orders about changing their "Defend" arc. This is especially true if involved in some sort of firefight, where they usually ignore orders to change the hull facing in favor of continuing to fire at the target. Since this is not a very good idea if you are facing opponents with high AT capability, I've been forced to start giving "Move Fast" orders in the direction of the enemy, to force my tanks to change to a better facing before returning fire at the enemy.

I conclude with telling you once again that the post wasn't supposed to be taken as some sort of "complaint log". As I said in my original post, I enjoy this game immensely.

The only real issue I have is waiting for that patch to fix the "empty battlegroup" bug. My campaign have been on hold for three weeks now and I would like to continue that one.

/Cheers, Grollub

[drrowley]

pak40- 'this is not even remotely true.' ????
 
how would you know, how about, maybe you've never seen it.[&o]
 
but i had 4 stugs on road, in a forest, and an m10 was picking them off one by one, none of the stugs could see the m10, but all were finally destroyed. i replayed the scenario 3 times and watch the m10 (or a sherman), [font=arial]maneuver to a position to fire at the stugs and the stugs were 'never' able to see the shooter. and the same goes for the computer shooting around corners.[/font]
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial]when the next patch comes out, i'll take another look, but for now, 'my' opinion is this game is still garbage.[/font]
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial][/font] 
 
 

[Pzt_Serk]

One way LOS are not uncommon in the CC serie and I don't consider this a bad thing most of the time. Don't forget that height plays an important role in this and it won't be the first time a bunch of tanks IRL get destroyed without being able to fire back.

[TheReal_Pak40]

Daver,

It's not remotely true because he says "The enemy can always see you and shoot at your tanks through trees, whereas the opposite isn’t true."

I know this isn't true because I've been playing the game for months and maybe have only 1 or 2 instances where I thought something like this has happened. Now, maybe you or Grollub has found one particular case on one particular map where it keeps happening, but this does not make your blanket statement true.

The problem you are witnessing in this instance is most likely a map terrain error, not a game engine problem or a failure in the LOS system.

If you want the problem fixed for the next patch, then I suggest you post your findings with the map name and at least supply a more descriptive location or screen grab to help the developers locate and correct the problem. Simply claiming that it "always" happens doesn't help anyone solve anything because it's not true.

Edit: I see that his native language is not English so maybe I should cut him some slack, but surely, Daver, you cannot agree that the Enemy "always" can see you through trees when you cannot. If this were true then a LOT more people would be complaining about this.

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: Pzt_Serk

One way LOS are not uncommon in the CC serie and I don't consider this a bad thing most of the time. Don't forget that height plays an important role in this and it won't be the first time a bunch of tanks IRL get destroyed without being able to fire back.

Good point. And also don't forget that in reality, it IS possible for 'Tank A' to see, shoot and kill 'Tank B' without 'Tank B' able to trace a LOS to 'Tank A'. An obvious case where this can happen is when part of a tank is showing around a building, or as Pzt_Serk has mentioned about the heights. Another issue possible in reality but maybe not CC is when a tank is behind a tall hedge or tree cover and is killed by another tank that can't even see it.