Patch question

[berndn]

I know that you had seen this Maps errors not fixed in the new WaR patch... but it would be nice to discuss it here as this is for me the primary forum for game related questions. And yes, the LOS can be a bit strange [;)]

[Andrew Williams]

Strange that thread opened by stalky.

You would think that WaR maps had been coded in a new and unrealistic way compared to the way all Close Combat maps had been coded.

I just checked a few maps and the coding seems fine and suitable for the intended purpose.

Although in theory he has it almost right, there are a lot of other contributing factors in coding a map... size of the graphic/size of the building/type of building etc etc.

If we were to make cookie cutter stamps of each building they would become boring to play and not play at all realistically.... I want to have LOS through windows for instance, not windows that block LOS.

Thats not to say there may be errors... 64 maps is huge, if you would like to point out anything that is particularly worrisome I'll be glad to take a look.

[squadleader_id]

Like I said over at CCS...why don't you guys experiment on re-coding the buildings the way Stalky explained (with the pics and huge lettering [:D])...and then test them out in the game to see if this solves the LOS anomalies.
Edit: BTW, I don't think Stalky meant that the CCWAR map coding was drastically different to previous CC map coding...looks like you guys just missed 2-3 pixels in the building elements codings...but those 2-3 pixels can produce LOS anomalies.

[berndn]

Thanks Andrew for responding.
And 64 maps is for sure huge so errors may be possible.

The test which stalky had uploaded seem to indicate that a fix, if needed, would not be that big in size but for sure it will mean a lot of work. A question I had in mind yesterday was if shooting through 2 windows from a tank/gun/rifle/pistol would be realistic and if shooting through windows can be limited to only allow shooting through the first window instead of going through the whole house.

And I sure appreciate what you are doing and I'll thank you all for the ongoing support.

[Korzun]

I think there was a discussion going on somwhere in this forum about that matter (shooting through 2 windows). Btw, I have never noticed any problems with LOS. Which map does Stalky refer to in his post?

[Platoon_Michael]

Personally I wouldnt be normally expecting to be on the recieving end of a shot like this LOS shows.
Whats also hard for me is the LOS that sometimes seems to make it over wooded areas too.

[Pzt_Serk]

C'mon Micheal, you should know how easy it is to shoot from a window, cross an indoor door and then throught the exit window in the heat of a battle...The only time I coudnt do it was due to curtains...

[Andrew Williams]

Ha , What a shot

But two windows are lined up... If you want to wait there and hope someone walks into your LOF and get of a quick shot that's up to you... I wouldn't do it.

[Platoon_Michael]

The waiting isnt the hardest part.
It's understanding where it is

[Platoon_Michael]

I’m not trying to pass judgment.
But it does make one wonder what are the limits of LOS or LOF?.

[Andrew Williams]

The tank is adjacent to the Level 3 buildings Stone Wall.

Being adjacent means you can fire through the wall.... it assumes you take a pro-active decision and knock a peep hole or remove a brick.

This won't work in reverse eg one way LOS. (it assumes you have the upper hand by taking this position)

The the large 2 story building has Factory walls .... Flimsy and allow LOS/LOF under certain conditions.

The small 2 story building the LOS is going through the window... as you would have seen moving 1mm or 2mm to the left or right will block the LOS with the buildings walls.

You can drive around all the maps and find cunning spots with LOS to far off in the distance... the focus will only be very small to the left and right though.  eg if your Tank  waited in that spot for an infantry team to enter the Town Hall it would only have limited opportunity to do damage.. the team would just have to run to the left or right a couple of mm and it would be out of LOS.

[Platoon_Michael]

Good answer but I think what your really missing is that the corner of the house in CCIV 4.02 blocks LOS
WAR doesnt.

[Andrew Williams]

In CC4 you can still get LOS to that building through the Lvl 3 Building.

The big building in WaR is a flimsy factory in CC4 it is heavy duty stone which will block LOS.

It's not correct to compare the two... as you will no doubt find the reverse is the case in other areas if you look around... if the building has been changed, like in your example , you will have a different experience.

[Tejszd]

Checked the Stavelot coding for the factory and it looks okay. If you look at your pictures your tank is in a different spot, albeit only slightly, but it could be enough to give you the LOF/LOS....

Having said that I'm sure there are some problems on some of the maps (example some the houses on the Assenois map). It is bound to happen when you have to click on so many element squares (every 5 pixels x 5 pixels). Stavelot for example is X = 1920 pixels by Y = 1680 pixels thus there are 129,024 element squares to be defined....

[TheReal_Pak40]

Ummm, did the make "flimsy" factories in the 30s-40s? What was it made out of, paper mache? I've never heard of a wooden factory so it must have been either stone or brick. Even if it was wood it would block LOS and LOF just as if it were stone or brick. A right click on the wall says it is a "factory wall", not a "flimsy factory wall". So this begs the question, are all factories in Belgium considered flimsy?

Another issue I have with some of the wall/window coding is that the windows are rarely where the graphic shows them. I understand that it is hard to line up the coding to the graphic but usually it is way off.

[Andrew Williams]

Our factory walls are flimsy ... Think of a warehouse in this instance

If they are required to be more than flimsy they are stone or brick.

i think Tin sheet might be the closest match along the lines of a nissen hut.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

The waiting isnt the hardest part.
It's understanding where it is

I prefer flat maps such as in Close Combat the original.

With flat maps, LOS is never a problem.

For Close Combat: The Next Generation, I vote for flat maps!

-

[Andrew Williams]

There's a lot to be said for non-mountainous maps... I don't know about flat, maybe a few undulations, slight hills and hollows?

[Moss Orleni]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

The tank is adjacent to the Level 3 buildings Stone Wall.

Being adjacent means you can fire through the wall.... it assumes you take a pro-active decision and knock a peep hole or remove a brick.

This won't work in reverse eg one way LOS. (it assumes you have the upper hand by taking this position)

Hi Andrew,

The screenshot below shows the reverse situation: the wreck next to the factory wall is a TD that was knocked out by a Panther in the previous turn.
The Panther didn't have to stand next to the factory wall to get the LOS. I don't know it this is a coding issue or not, but a Panther firing from a distance, through two factory walls and right through the peep hole made by a defending tank seems a bit unrealistic. The Stavelot factory is just one example of course, but we've seen the same situation on other maps as well.
In gaming terms, the problem is more on the defending side: when setting up in ambush position behind a house, you of course do not expect to be hit through 2 windows from a point not even near the other side of the house. Having to check the whole map area behind the house to see from what position your TD could be hit is a bit unpractical and time-consuming. If the peep hole would really be one-way LOS, there might be a case for it, but if not, I'd prefer to see these LOS lanes closed.

This said, to me this issue is more annoying than really critical to gameplay. If it's easily solvable, then yes, please [:)]. If not, well, pity then...

Cheers,

Moss

BTW, Andrew: tried to send you a PM, but your box is full; I sent it to your mail address instead, you might want to check it out...

[squadleader_id]

About the mystery of that ghostly see-thru Stavelot factory...you guys might want to take a closer look at the elements.txt file.
Eventhough Schrecken...err...Andrew pointed out that the factory has flimsy walls...it should still be a LOS/LOF obstruction but with low protection values.
Look for "Factory Wall" (column A, row 234 - or 237 in the Workbook), check "Visibility Hindrance" columns (KLMN)...notice that they're set at low values of 100 (same hindrance value as doors, and even lower than windows).  Change those values to basic "wall" values of 450...and you should still get flimsy Factory Walls but not see-thru anymore.