Guns on subs

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:17 pm

Guns on submarines – are they ever used in the game?
I don't recall them ever hit a ship or a plane. Seems that torps are the only meaningful weapon for a sub.

Solinari · Post by **Solinari** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 7:17 pm

Yes, u can use guns....subs have a small gun which they will use when surface. This allows them to sink merchantmen without wasting torpedoes
AA guns are often carried also 2 fight aircraft

Culiacan Mexico · Post by **Culiacan Mexico** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:38 pm

Originally posted by Solinari
Yes, u can use guns....subs have a small gun which they will use when surface. This allows them to sink merchantmen without wasting torpedoes AA guns are often carried also 2 fight aircraft

Historically...yes. In the game? I didn't know that.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 1:26 am

I don't think the game uses the sub's guns at all. You can't shoot down an attacking plane, (and subs almost NEVER won against planes) and I don't see any "MCS hit by 3in deck gun" results.

The Germans made more use of deck guns that either the USN or IJN. If they could sink a merchant ship with their deck gun (like if they got a ship alone in the middle of nowhere) they would use it to conserve torpedoes, but then again the German subs were mostly night surface raiders that could submerge when needed. That's how Doinetz fought them, until Allied air power and surface escorts forced them down (which is why they lost the campaign, inneffective when submerged).

The USN doctrine was to stay submerged more than the German doctrine.

The IJN used a similar method, but they refused to go after merchant shipping, it was "beneath" them to do so.

madflava13 · Post by **madflava13** » Sat Apr 13, 2002 12:32 am

I've never seen subs use their guns in however many years I've played Pacwar... Maybe UV/WitP will change that...

boba · Post by **boba** » Sat Apr 13, 2002 8:42 pm

Maybe off the topic but it's about submarines (at least how to fight them

). My question is how to set patrol planes (or any plane at all) to ASW role? Should I set them on 'day combat' or 'naval interdirection'? I suppose that later is for anti-shipping duty only but I may be wrong...

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Sat Apr 13, 2002 10:40 pm

Only certain aircraft types can attack subs.

H6K
H8K
E13A
Catalina
Privateer

Some other aircraft attack subs, I think they are USN and IJN Torpedo/Dive Bomber aircraft, possibly also G4M and B-17/B-24.

Range is the most important factor to aircraft ASW operations. Aircraft durability, load, etc. do nothing to effect ASW ops. ASW aircraft attack subs within 1/2 of their range (A PBY with range of 8 will have a range of 4 for ASW). This symbolizes that ASW aircraft were heavily loaded with bombs/depth charges that limits their range.

The best thing to do is to put your longest ranged Patrol aircraft in areas of heavy sub activity. Put your shorter ranged aircraft on patrol duty (as the E13A will have an ASW range of only 2, vs a patrol range of 4!).

madflava13 · Post by **madflava13** » Sat Apr 13, 2002 10:43 pm

Just to piggyback the last post -
B-17s do not participate in ASW. Dauntlesses and Avengers do however - I usually have them forward deployed though, so its often a moot point.
I don't know for certain about the Bettys, but I suspect they do not work for ASW either (I can't recall a time when I saw them attack subs...)

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:37 am

Originally posted by madflava13
I've never seen subs use their guns in however many years I've played Pacwar...
Maybe UV/WitP will change that...

Don't think there's much need.
After the war, when usage of sub guns was reviewed, it was found out, that their net effect was around 0.
Reasons:
1. There was no more idiots to send ships w/o ASW escort.
2. The last desperate gun battle against destroyers or ASW aircraft 99% of cases was umm.. one-sided.
Practically all post-war subs had no guns.

madflava13 · Post by **madflava13** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 12:49 am

Indeed -- I would still like to see a sub "battle surface" in front of a minesweeper or barge and fire away - mostly because I've never seen it in a game...

boba · Post by **boba** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 8:55 pm

Originally posted by Jeremy Pritchard

The best thing to do is to put your longest ranged Patrol aircraft in areas of heavy sub activity. Put your shorter ranged aircraft on patrol duty (as the E13A will have an ASW range of only 2, vs a patrol range of 4!). [/B]

Well, that was my question actually. How exactlly I can set planes to ASW role? Assigning them on NI misson or day combat... or what?

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 10:58 pm

You do not do a thing, just put them at a base near major sub activity. ASW missions are automatic (i.e., do not change their mission).

boba · Post by **boba** » Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:11 pm

I suspected that it's something siple as that

so poor effect of my ASW war is due to low experience, right?

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Mon Apr 15, 2002 2:57 pm

I don't think that experience plays a big, if any part, mainly just positioning and range. Of course, the more patrol aircraft in a group the better. If you really have a hard hit area, just put as many torpedo/dive/patrol groups there (those aircraft with the longest range are best).

Positioning and numbers is what counts in Pac War for ASW aircraft.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:04 am

Look at your air zone circles. If they don't overlap, then there there is not likely going to be any ASW coverage. You need at least 2 PBY units in hawaii, one in PH and the other off to the side. I have at least one SBD or TBF group in eash hawaii air base too.

Then you need PBY groups in the australian LOC island chain, mainly depending on where your ships are getting attacked. Got attacked by a sub? put a PBY group at the closest airbase and an SBD or TBF group too.

The PWHINTS file mentions DDs in port contributing to ASW. Anybody capable of verifying this?

PWHINTS hints also at making "decoy TFs", that is TFs with destroyers (DD / DE) only going to and from your major ports, like LA to PH, PH to Palymyra, SF to PH, etc. If you can spare them, these TFs can provide a nasty surprise. Perhaps make a single TF and send it in a circular "patrol route from say LA to PH to Palmyra (or wherever you need it to go) then back again.

Lastly it mentions hunter-killer groups which are supposed to be CVE TFs with DDs or DEs set to hang around a subs suspected patrol hex, but I had more bad luck than good doing this, got my CVEs torpedoed:eek:

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:07 am

Can't see where the subs are attacking you? put the display on high, delay on medium. You even see the amount of supples each enemy base gets too and where your own subs are hitting. Do this only at the end after the last ground combat, otherwise, you grow old waiting for the turn to progress.

boba · Post by **boba** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:59 pm

Ok, I know I'm getting boring

but I have another question about subs. This time it is how to make them more efficent? What factors are contributing to good sub kills, exepct good position of subs naturally

? How important is sub base and dinstance (patrol range) from that base? And do sub types (I suppose they do) have significant effect in how many kills subs make? I ask this 'cause I used to put my subs on computer control (I'm more of the CVs and BBs type

) but now I wish to pay some more control to sub warfare...

msvknight · Post by **msvknight** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 5:33 pm

The subs lost their guns more because they ceased being submersibles and became true submarines. The WWII boats travelled mostly on the surface and only used their submerging abilities to attack or to avoid being attacked. U-Boats used their guns quite regularly when fighting in the Caribbean or off the coast of the US prior to the convoy system being set up. However, the deck guns are pretty much useless in a shooting duel. They are just there to conserve torpedoes while killing a defenceless target.

Just a bit of additional triva for you all. Allied merchantmen were fitted with a 4" gun in the stern. They were not fitted with one at the bow because the Germans would have treated them as pirates. If they had fitted a gun forrard, it would likely have wiped out the U-Boat gun as an effective weapon.

Admiral DadMan · Post by **Admiral DadMan** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 7:14 pm

Originally posted by boba
I have another question about subs. This time it is how to make them more efficent?

What factors are contributing to good sub kills, exepct good position of subs naturally ?

Other factors include:
-Sub Group's range from their home port (the closer its home port, the more time on patrol station). Re-basing your sub Groups as you move forward will cut down travel time to their posts.
-Enemy escort activity (i.e. how many DD/DE/PC your enemy uses in escort duty.)
-Enemy AZOC covering your patrol area can reduce your effectiveness (remember that ASW range=1/2 aircraft patrol range rule.)
-Covering the shipping lanes. Far better to nail merchant shipping in the middle of the ocean in a lane you KNOW that is well used for shipping.

How important is sub base and dinstance (patrol range) from that base?

Very important. Far easier to cover the Phillipines-Tokyo route from Midway than from San Francisco (USN), and San Francisco/LA-Pearl Harbor route from Wake or Eniwetok (IJN)

And do sub types (I suppose they do) have significant effect in how many kills subs make?

That's a good question. Historically, for the USN, the "Fleet" sized subs (not S Class or Narwahl Class) were the most effective. In just looking at the numbers (Durability, Speed, and Torpedo Tubes) IJN's best is the I-400 Class, and USN is Gato and Balao Class.

BullHalsey · Post by **BullHalsey** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 11:00 pm

From PWHints: "Japanese submarines may also carry supplies. "

On a similar topic: How does one use IJN submarines to transport supplies?

Also, it would be neat to see subs firing their surface weaponry at DEs/DDs or aircraft on an occasion.

Guns on subs

Guns on subs

Re: Supplying by Sub