A2A damage accounting

[modrow]

Hi all,

does anyone know how damage accounting in A2A combat works ? Or, even better, provide a link to detailed info on the A2A mechanics in general ? The search function once again lets me down here.

Assume I have 100 Oscars up against 5 B17 in a Vanilla game. The Oscar's guns are a bit weak to down a B17. Do I just get a big number of chances to score an (unlikely) kill, or will the damage done to a given B17 be added up until the kill threshold is met ?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge

Hartwig

[String]

I think, in the end, it doesn't matter much. But i'd say it's the former from experience.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

Hi all,

does anyone know how damage accounting in A2A combat works ? Or, even better, provide a link to detailed info on the A2A mechanics in general ? The search function once again lets me down here.

Assume I have 100 Oscars up against 5 B17 in a Vanilla game. The Oscar's guns are a bit weak to down a B17. Do I just get a big number of chances to score an (unlikely) kill, or will the damage done to a given B17 be added up until the kill threshold is met ?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge

Hartwig

The Ki43 was a "performing fool". You couldn't hit it, and it couldn't damage you much. Lovely for a strike escort but hopeless for an interceptor. The Ki-61--the Japanese take on the Bf-109--was the opposite. I haven't noticed the game really modelling the distinction well.

[Dora09]

Yeah, the A2A damage model has always bothered me a little. In my experience it does not "add up" at all. What is worse, is that damage seems to have no effect on aircraft effectiveness. In real life if a plane was damaged it would (the pilot) likely leave the battle. Likewise, 5 B17 under attack by 100 Ki43 would most likely in real life drop their bomb load and try to escape. I've watched in my game where 3 B24s get shot up (but not killed) by my CAP and then go right ahead and put thee bombs on a ship. If that happened once and a while fine, but it seems to happen with regularity. The only thing damge seems to do in the game is to increase the chance of the plane crashing on the way home or to become a ops loss. IMO, damage should also have the chance to remove planes from the field of battle, to make them less effective and to make bombing aircraft drop their bombs prematurely.

[castor troy]

It´s the same with flak fire, it does not effect performance of the bombers at all... it´s wrong, but it´s like it is...

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Dora09

Yeah, the A2A damage model has always bothered me a little. In my experience it does not "add up" at all. What is worse, is that damage seems to have no effect on aircraft effectiveness. In real life if a plane was damaged it would (the pilot) likely leave the battle. Likewise, 5 B17 under attack by 100 Ki43 would most likely in real life drop their bomb load and try to escape. I've watched in my game where 3 B24s get shot up (but not killed) by my CAP and then go right ahead and put thee bombs on a ship. If that happened once and a while fine, but it seems to happen with regularity. The only thing damge seems to do in the game is to increase the chance of the plane crashing on the way home or to become a ops loss. IMO, damage should also have the chance to remove planes from the field of battle, to make them less effective and to make bombing aircraft drop their bombs prematurely.

Best way to think about it is perhaps not to take things too literally... the way the game shows it, the CAP ALWAYS intercepts before the bombing, and vanishes immediately after the bombing... with a little flexibility, this can be thought of as a limitation of the game (which, i think it is.)

In reality, the CAP did NOT always intercept before, nor did it stop after the bombers dropped their bombs... maybe you can think of it as being nonsequential: perhaps the bombers in some cases bomb first and get intercepted later... the game will still show it interception - bomb - get away, whereas in reality bombers could and did drop bombs unmolested and THEN get jumped (witness Blenheim attacks on the KB in the Indian Ocean raid: they came perilously close to taking out a carrier or two undetected and then got torn to pieces by fighters.)

If you took this later attack and modelled it in WITP it would show fighters tearing up the bombers, and then they proceed to bomb the ships... and you'd say "well, how likely is this?"

Just think of it as a limitation of the combat display (which is, by necessity, limited).

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Dora09

Yeah, the A2A damage model has always bothered me a little. In my experience it does not "add up" at all. What is worse, is that damage seems to have no effect on aircraft effectiveness. In real life if a plane was damaged it would (the pilot) likely leave the battle. Likewise, 5 B17 under attack by 100 Ki43 would most likely in real life drop their bomb load and try to escape. I've watched in my game where 3 B24s get shot up (but not killed) by my CAP and then go right ahead and put thee bombs on a ship. If that happened once and a while fine, but it seems to happen with regularity. The only thing damge seems to do in the game is to increase the chance of the plane crashing on the way home or to become a ops loss. IMO, damage should also have the chance to remove planes from the field of battle, to make them less effective and to make bombing aircraft drop their bombs prematurely.

Yes, the difference between a bombing attack by an undisturbed aircraft and one coping with AA or interceptors was marked! I've often been bothered by the inability of my air defence assets to discourage air bombardment. Of course, shore bombardment is overpowered, too.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

It´s the same with flak fire, it does not effect performance of the bombers at all... it´s wrong, but it´s like it is...

Even AA under local control (so that it wouldn't hit anything) was enough to reduce the effectiveness of air bombardment by 40%.

[rtrapasso]

Again, you seem to think WITP is a simulation:

Repeat to yourself 10,000x : "War In The Pacific is a game, not a simulation."

If this does not relieve your being bothered with the problem, repeat the treatment. [:'(]

[Dora09]

I get what you are saying rtrapasso and I agree that we have to be aware that the combat turn is an abstract representation of the battle. However, it seems that damaged bombers are always damaged after the bombing run.

It isn't a factor that bothers me to a point where I don't want to play. I love this game... more than any other. While it isn't perfect, it is more realistic than any other game on this scale I have played, IMO. The only other war games that i thought were close to as realistic is maybe the Close Combat series, but that was a squad-based game.

I guess I am just sick of getting bombed to hell by B24s[;)]

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Dora09

I get what you are saying rtrapasso and I agree that we have to be aware that the combat turn is an abstract representation of the battle. However, it seems that damaged bombers are always damaged after the bombing run.

It isn't a factor that bothers me to a point where I don't want to play. I love this game... more than any other. While it isn't perfect, it is more realistic than any other game on this scale I have played, IMO. The only other war games that i thought were close to as realistic is maybe the Close Combat series, but that was a squad-based game.

I guess I am just sick of getting bombed to hell by B24s[;)]

Of course, i think the Axis in general also got pretty tired of B-24s in the course of real events.

i suggest you try a non-vanilla mod - CHS or Big B or the like... regular WITP has an overabundance of 4EBs (and just about every other kind of airplane)...

[Dora09]

Oh yeah, I am playing CHS and I would never go back to stock.
I do think that the allied player can win on B24s alone even in CHS, although that is probably because I am not a very good player.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: hartwig.modrow

Hi all,

does anyone know how damage accounting in A2A combat works ? Or, even better, provide a link to detailed info on the A2A mechanics in general ? The search function once again lets me down here.

Assume I have 100 Oscars up against 5 B17 in a Vanilla game. The Oscar's guns are a bit weak to down a B17. Do I just get a big number of chances to score an (unlikely) kill, or will the damage done to a given B17 be added up until the kill threshold is met ?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge

Hartwig

Hartwig,
You might want to post your question in the AE air war forum. They have seen the code (seen the elephant, so to speak) and might have some useful insight. Just don't suggest they change anything at this point or you will be struck down by lightning (and deservedly so).