Supplies in AE

[Cerix]

Is it true that Japan will have a lot less supplies in AE ?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Cerix

Is it true that Japan will have a lot less supplies in AE ?

No.

[Cerix]

Manual talks about supplies being made on a 1-1 ratio instead ?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: treespider
No.

Treespider - working on his Terminus answer impression!
[:D]

Actually strategic logistics will be a bit different - the biggest difference for the Japanese side is the increase in the amount of resources that will need to be brought back to the home islands. As one of the primary "instigators" of this change, perhaps Tree can elaborate further on how this works.

In my campaign game as Japanese, I got to September 1942 - and was getting low on supplies but was not out. My primary supply consumer areas were China and Burma - where the main ground activities were happening.

Also in AE you actually take "fuel" to the Home Islands more than removing it.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


Actually strategic logistics will be a bit different - the biggest difference for the Japanese side is the increase in the amount of resources that will need to be brought back to the home islands. As one of the primary "instigators" of this change, perhaps Tree can elaborate further on how this works.

The following is an extract from one of the design discussions. Most of the AE game figures cited are from AE as it stood at the time of this discussion. Those figures have since changed-

PROBLEM:

In stock WitP the shipping demands placed on the Japanese Merchant fleet are significantly lower than the historical demands. (95% of the historic Japanese merchant fleet and capacity is represented in the game.)

FACTUAL BASIS FOR PROBLEM:

Historically in the Japanese imported many more metric tons of resources than required by the game.

Real life resource imports by year:

1940 – 22.0 million tons
1941 – 20.0 million tons
1942 – 19.4 million tons

Game Requirements
AE Scenario - 4.2 million tons (at that point in development this has since been changed)
Stock - 2.8 million tons

At this point in AE's development the AE scenario which was similar to the STOCK game there were 56730 resource centers that produce a total of 20.7 million points of resources in a given year. The majority of these resources are located either in Japan or areas the Japanese never conquered. A rough estimation places 8 million resources in the areas the Japanese conquered each year.

In the AE Scenario at that point in its development Japan itself produced 2.2 million resources per year and its industry only demanded 6.4 million resources, a difference of 4.2 million resources (In STOCK the difference is actually lower at 2.8 million).

Therefore Japanese merchant shipping was only required in the AE scenario to move 4.2 million points when in history they moved 20 million points – a fivefold difference. The Japanese were unable to import everything that their industry required.

An evaluation of historic statistical data has revealed that at least 515 million resources were produced on the area covered by the AE map ...and this does not include the US, Canada or the USSR.

EFFECTS OF PROBLEM:

(1) There was no need for the Japanese to produce merchant ships because the historical demand on them is not present, which allows production historically used on merchant ships to be used for other purposes.

(2) Reduced use of merchant fleet allowed for increased operational flexibility due to increased availability merchant ships.

(3) Reduced use of merchant ships allowed for increased operational flexibility because the merchants ships in game require less of the fuel supply.

SOLUTION:

Increase demand placed on Japanese merchant ships to historical levels.


MEANS OF SOLUTION:

Increase resources needed to be transported to the Home Islands to historical levels and require historical levels of consumption of these resources.

DETAILS OF SOLUTION:

Implementation of a table in the scenario editor, which exposes the multiples used for consumption requirements and outputs as they relate to Heavy Industry and Light Industry. As an example – Statistical analysis suggests that the resources required of HEAVY INDUSTRY be increased from 2 points to 15. Increase the points required of LIGHT INDUSTRY from 1 point to 20. And increase Resource Center production to 20 resources. These figures were further refined and have since changed.

Place historic resource production based on a ratio of historic data on the map as determined by available historic data.

FACTUAL BASIS of SOLUTION:

Historically the Japanese produced 85.5 million metric tons of food/ ore/ misc far more than the games 2.2 million points.

Roughly 60% of Japanese and American resources were consumed by the Civilian economy. In 1941 and 1942 the Japanese imported an additional 22 and 20 million tons of food/ore/misc.....for a total of 105.5 million tons of resources for consumption by war industry and civilians.

Data analysis suggests that the military/war effort consumed 10% of the food, 30% of textiles, 50% of misc (rubber,cement, etc) and 40% of ores. When civilian consumption of resources is calculated from 105.5 million, c.70 million tons are consumed by the civilian economy in a year... The remaining 35 million tons are consumed by LIGHT and HEAVY industry for use in the war effort.

In the AE Scenario at that point of development Heavy Industry consumed 11080 points a day and Light Industry 6300 points per day. However this only resulted in 6.3 million points of consumption. This consumption needs to be multiplied by a factor of roughly 6-7 to reach historic consumption levels.

By applying the above multiples to HI & LI Input and Resource Center Output we begin to approach historic industry consumption levels and a 20 million point deficit is generated in the Japanese Home Island economy which would need to be offset through imports...brought in by the currently underutilized Japanese Merchant Fleet (95-99% of which is represented in the game).

Primary Sources among others:

1. Le, Manh Hung, The impact of World War II on the economy of Vietnam, 1939-45 / Singapore : Eastern Universities Press by Marshall Cavendish, 2004.

2. 1945 China yearbook. Taipei, Taiwan, China Pub. Co.; New York, Macmillan 1950

3. Cohen, Jerome Bernard, 1915- Japan's economy in war and reconstruction; Minneapolis, Univ. of Minnesota Press, 1949.

4. United States Strategic Bombing Survey. Reports. Washington, D.C. : U.S. G.P.O., 1946-
Report 36 - Coal and Metals in Japan’s War
Report 40 – Electric Power Industry of Japan
Report 42 – Japanese Wartime Standard of Living and Utilization of Manpower
Report 43 – Japanese War Production Industries
Report 48 – Japanese Merchant Shipbuilding
Report 53 – The Effects of Strategic Bombing on Japan’s War Economy
- Including:
- Appendix A: US Economic Intelligence on Japan
- Appendix B: Gross National Product on Japan and its components
- Appendix C: Statistical Sources
Report 54 – The War against Japanese Transportation

5. Segers, W. A. I. M. Changing Economy in Indonesia, Volume 8, Manufacturing industry, 1870-1942 / Amsterdam : Royal Tropical Institute, 1988.

7. The industrialization of Japan and Manchukuo, 1930-1940 / edited by E.B. Schumpeter. London ; New York : Routledge, 2000.

8. League of Nations. Economic, Financial, and Transit Dept. Annuaire statistique de la Société des Nations Statistical year-book of the League of Nations. 1941/42 w/Addendum 1942/43 Geneva.

9. Field, Frederick Vanderbilt, 1905- ed. Economic handbook of the Pacific area, Garden City, N. Y., Doubleday, Doran, 1934.

[DrewMatrix]

I usually play Allies and am not familiar with the IJN supply/production routines.

That "20 million tons" presumably includes food/supplies to keep the Japanese civian economy running, as well as that needed to prduce war materials. Are there effects in WITP or AE of insufficient supplies to feed/supply the civilan economy? Do the Japanese have to burn supplies to keep their population from starvign?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

I usually play Allies and am not familiar with the IJN supply/production routines.

That "20 million tons" presumably includes food/supplies to keep the Japanese civian economy running, as well as that needed to prduce war materials. Are there effects in WITP or AE of insufficient supplies to feed/supply the civilan economy? Do the Japanese have to burn supplies to keep their population from starvign?

Yes the 20 million includes foodstuffs...so if the resources don't get to the industry in Japan the industry doesn't function...whether that is because the population is starving or because there is insufficent coal or iron is up to your imagination.

1942, Metric Tons

TOTAL - 19,402,090
Coal - 6,388,000
Iron Ore - 4,700,000
Bauxite - 305,000
Iron & Steel - 993,000
Scrap Iron - 50,000
Salt - 1,499,800
Rice & Paddy - 2,629,200
Other Grains - 823,300
Soybeans - 698,800
Soybean Cake - 449,500
Dolomite & Magnesite - 468,700
Phosphorite & Phosphate - 342,100
Zinc - 8,500
Tin - 3,800
Lead 10,990
Raw Rubber - 31,400

[DrewMatrix]

So 60% for steel production alone, 30% for food and 10% for everything else combined.

Fascinating.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Cerix

Is it true that Japan will have a lot less supplies in AE ?

Well, the supply production is less in AE than it is in WitP. WitP produces (scenario 15 at start):

17,595 from heavy industry
12,120 from resource centers.
------
39,715 per day.

AE (scen 1 at start):
13,900 from heavy industry
8,620 from light industry
1,035 from refineries
------
23,555 per day.

I would call a nearly 50% drop in supplies a lot, so my answer would be "yes". Note: nearly 15,000 of these supplies are produced on Honshu - the main island in Japan.

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


Actually strategic logistics will be a bit different - the biggest difference for the Japanese side is the increase in the amount of resources that will need to be brought back to the home islands. As one of the primary "instigators" of this change, perhaps Tree can elaborate further on how this works.

The following is an extract from one of the design discussions. Most of the AE game figures cited are from AE as it stood at the time of this discussion. Those figures have since changed-

PROBLEM:

In stock WitP the shipping demands placed on the Japanese Merchant fleet are significantly lower than the historical demands. (95% of the historic Japanese merchant fleet and capacity is represented in the game.)

FACTUAL BASIS FOR PROBLEM:

Historically in the Japanese imported many more metric tons of resources than required by the game.

Real life resource imports by year:

1940 – 22.0 million tons
1941 – 20.0 million tons
1942 – 19.4 million tons

Game Requirements
AE Scenario - 4.2 million tons (at that point in development this has since been changed)
Stock - 2.8 million tons

At this point in AE's development the AE scenario which was similar to the STOCK game there were 56730 resource centers that produce a total of 20.7 million points of resources in a given year. The majority of these resources are located either in Japan or areas the Japanese never conquered. A rough estimation places 8 million resources in the areas the Japanese conquered each year.

In the AE Scenario at that point in its development Japan itself produced 2.2 million resources per year and its industry only demanded 6.4 million resources, a difference of 4.2 million resources (In STOCK the difference is actually lower at 2.8 million).

Therefore Japanese merchant shipping was only required in the AE scenario to move 4.2 million points when in history they moved 20 million points – a fivefold difference. The Japanese were unable to import everything that their industry required.

An evaluation of historic statistical data has revealed that at least 515 million resources were produced on the area covered by the AE map ...and this does not include the US, Canada or the USSR.

EFFECTS OF PROBLEM:

(1) There was no need for the Japanese to produce merchant ships because the historical demand on them is not present, which allows production historically used on merchant ships to be used for other purposes.

(2) Reduced use of merchant fleet allowed for increased operational flexibility due to increased availability merchant ships.

(3) Reduced use of merchant ships allowed for increased operational flexibility because the merchants ships in game require less of the fuel supply.

SOLUTION:

Increase demand placed on Japanese merchant ships to historical levels.


MEANS OF SOLUTION:

Increase resources needed to be transported to the Home Islands to historical levels and require historical levels of consumption of these resources.

DETAILS OF SOLUTION:

Implementation of a table in the scenario editor, which exposes the multiples used for consumption requirements and outputs as they relate to Heavy Industry and Light Industry. As an example – Statistical analysis suggests that the resources required of HEAVY INDUSTRY be increased from 2 points to 15. Increase the points required of LIGHT INDUSTRY from 1 point to 20. And increase Resource Center production to 20 resources. These figures were further refined and have since changed.

Place historic resource production based on a ratio of historic data on the map as determined by available historic data.

FACTUAL BASIS of SOLUTION:

Historically the Japanese produced 85.5 million metric tons of food/ ore/ misc far more than the games 2.2 million points.

Roughly 60% of Japanese and American resources were consumed by the Civilian economy. In 1941 and 1942 the Japanese imported an additional 22 and 20 million tons of food/ore/misc.....for a total of 105.5 million tons of resources for consumption by war industry and civilians.

Data analysis suggests that the military/war effort consumed 10% of the food, 30% of textiles, 50% of misc (rubber,cement, etc) and 40% of ores. When civilian consumption of resources is calculated from 105.5 million, c.70 million tons are consumed by the civilian economy in a year... The remaining 35 million tons are consumed by LIGHT and HEAVY industry for use in the war effort.

In the AE Scenario at that point of development Heavy Industry consumed 11080 points a day and Light Industry 6300 points per day. However this only resulted in 6.3 million points of consumption. This consumption needs to be multiplied by a factor of roughly 6-7 to reach historic consumption levels.

By applying the above multiples to HI & LI Input and Resource Center Output we begin to approach historic industry consumption levels and a 20 million point deficit is generated in the Japanese Home Island economy which would need to be offset through imports...brought in by the currently underutilized Japanese Merchant Fleet (95-99% of which is represented in the game).

Primary Sources among others:

1. Le, Manh Hung, The impact of World War II on the economy of Vietnam, 1939-45 / Singapore : Eastern Universities Press by Marshall Cavendish, 2004.

2. 1945 China yearbook. Taipei, Taiwan, China Pub. Co.; New York, Macmillan 1950

3. Cohen, Jerome Bernard, 1915- Japan's economy in war and reconstruction; Minneapolis, Univ. of Minnesota Press, 1949.

4. United States Strategic Bombing Survey. Reports. Washington, D.C. : U.S. G.P.O., 1946-
Report 36 - Coal and Metals in Japan’s War
Report 40 – Electric Power Industry of Japan
Report 42 – Japanese Wartime Standard of Living and Utilization of Manpower
Report 43 – Japanese War Production Industries
Report 48 – Japanese Merchant Shipbuilding
Report 53 – The Effects of Strategic Bombing on Japan’s War Economy
- Including:
- Appendix A: US Economic Intelligence on Japan
- Appendix B: Gross National Product on Japan and its components
- Appendix C: Statistical Sources
Report 54 – The War against Japanese Transportation

5. Segers, W. A. I. M. Changing Economy in Indonesia, Volume 8, Manufacturing industry, 1870-1942 / Amsterdam : Royal Tropical Institute, 1988.

7. The industrialization of Japan and Manchukuo, 1930-1940 / edited by E.B. Schumpeter. London ; New York : Routledge, 2000.

8. League of Nations. Economic, Financial, and Transit Dept. Annuaire statistique de la Société des Nations Statistical year-book of the League of Nations. 1941/42 w/Addendum 1942/43 Geneva.

9. Field, Frederick Vanderbilt, 1905- ed. Economic handbook of the Pacific area, Garden City, N. Y., Doubleday, Doran, 1934.

I'm impressed. Did you guys write up a sheet like this for each problem that needed solving? Except the small Fix it now problems?

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Knavey
I'm impressed. Did you guys write up a sheet like this for each problem that needed solving? Except the small Fix it now problems?

Well several answers to that - one - in the beginning (hehe) we filled up a WIKI (sponsored for us by Andrew Brown) with "functional specifications". Trying to flesh out our ideas in an environment that facilitated debate and documentation of same.

Later as we migrated to the Matrix DEV Forum the style changed a bit - but if something was contested (as the above was IIRC) it required justification - so yes there is much discussion of historical precedent for many of the things we have done - and also the things we have NOT done.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Cerix

Is it true that Japan will have a lot less supplies in AE ?

Well, the supply production is less in AE than it is in WitP. WitP produces (scenario 15 at start):

17,595 from heavy industry
12,120 from resource centers.
------
39,715 per day.

AE (scen 1 at start):
13,900 from heavy industry
8,620 from light industry
1,035 from refineries
------
23,555 per day.

I would call a nearly 50% drop in supplies a lot, so my answer would be "yes". Note: nearly 15,000 of these supplies are produced on Honshu - the main island in Japan.

Last time I checked in Stock Scenario 15 At Start the Japanese have 13230 HI Factories which produce 13230 Supply points and 12120 Resource centers which produce 12120 Supply points for a total of 25,350 Supply points.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: treespider


Last time I checked in Stock Scenario 15 At Start the Japanese have 13230 HI Factories which produce 13230 Supply points and 12120 Resource centers which produce 12120 Supply points for a total of 25,350 Supply points.

Oops, my error. I was looking at the fuel produced at 1.33 and mistakenly took it as supplies

[XENXEN]

puhhh  My heart just started again , 50% reduction in supplies is not a thing to joke with

[stuman]

" Japanese Merchant Fleet (95-99% of which is represented in the game). "
 
I see. So what is the basis for this conspiracy to deny the Japanese access to 100 % of their merchant fleet ?  Won't this vast discrepancy make the game completely unplayable ?

[herwin]

Really nice work!

[Dili]

I see. So what is the basis for this conspiracy to deny the Japanese access to 100 % of their merchant fleet ? Won't this vast discrepancy make the game completely unplayable ?

Thousands minor ships i guess.

[Sardaukar]

I think it was irony from stuman..and decently good one...[:D]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: stuman

" Japanese Merchant Fleet (95-99% of which is represented in the game). "

I see. So what is the basis for this conspiracy to deny the Japanese access to 100 % of their merchant fleet ?  Won't this vast discrepancy make the game completely unplayable ?

No conspiracy ...just no need to include an ant colony ...which are replicated with the replaceable barges which are in the game.

[Chad Harrison]

Wait, so the Japanease actually have to feed their population in AE? Thats totally going to make taking over the entire map by the end of 1942 impossible! With all that shipping needing to move supplies, how am I suppose to invade India, Australia, New Zealand, Pearl and the West Coast all at the same time like I used to in stock? Quit nerfing Japan! They totally could have won the war! Just look at how many capital ships the Betty continued to sink after POW and how the Allies were terrified of getting their carriers close to any base that had Betties! If it wasnt for the atomic bomb, they would have won.

[;)]