Dettering Jonhston Island invasion

[gladiatt]

Guys, i am in a strategic and tactical disarray in my PBEM;
First: stock, 1.806, PBEM, 15 or 16 dec 41.
Pearl Harbor wasn't struck by KB on 7th dec.
My opponant is probably going to invade this position: a fleet of 7BB had flatten the defenders (one BaseForce and one USMC Def Bn wich now look like nothing abble to fight). KB is lurking around. Supplie low (1600 pt), no fortification. No AK/AP TF had been seen (but my PBY Catalina are almost blind [:@] ).

Of my 3 CV, all are intacts. I don't know if John (my opponant) have a clue about where they are. Let's say one could be around Peal in 3 days; the 2 others are trying to reach the atlantic by the magellan strait (i mean: there are doing the "Brave Sir Robin" strategy).

And i was just wondering: is there anything i could do to prevent such a thing? Of course, i have got nearly nothing for me: P-40 and P-36 squadrons and groups of Pearl have a very low experience rating, and as the pool are empty, they are not at the maximum size(and by the way can't reach Johnston).
The only thing i got is 2 groups of low experienced B-17C totalizing something like 40 planes; a bunch of 6 subs (with their remarkable useless torp); and the whole group of BB at Pearl.
If he manage to take Johnston, miss Betty and Nell could be in torpedo range of the Hawain island and hinder any traffic there.
Is it a good trade to spend the BB fleet in an attempt to disrupt a landing? Is the KB going to sink them before they reach Johnston? (and if they get there, they would encounter 7 japanese BB). Can 40 B-17 halt an invasion so early in the game ??

Any idea ?
This time i think i'll shout it: HHHHHHEEEEEEELLPPPPPPPPPP !

And Jan, if ever you read this: congrats, you are scaring me since the beggining of this game.

[bobogoboom]

let him have johnson island it will just end up being a prison camp. concentrate on fortifying the hawaiian islands it will become and isolated base that he will have trouble supplying as the war goes on. all he is trying to do is lure you into commiting heavy assets so that he can sink them and destroy your infantry divisions. it's kinda like controlling midway or wake they are really just not that important to have in game.

[AW1Steve]

Eric , I've emailed you some suggestions. Get back to me and let me know if it helps. [:)]

[gladiatt]

Bobo...don't you think the Nells and Betty would'nt prove a very bad annoyance for the AK near Pearl ? That it could give the dreaded Zero a base to cover his monster KB, and else?
( i hear your advice, i just still wonder).

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

Bobo...don't you think the Nells and Betty would'nt prove a very bad annoyance for the AK near Pearl ? That it could give the dreaded Zero a base to cover his monster KB, and else?
( i hear your advice, i just still wonder).

honestly pearl isn't as important in game as keeping your cvs intacted and if he rally wants to move early in the war on those area's the there is not that much you can do. plus if he takes those areas then he has to garrison them leaving you move options else where. also what is the hex distance from johnson to pearl(i play chs not stock)? is it in zero range(in chs this is 11)? i just don't think it is worth risking heavy units over johnson island.

[bobogoboom]

make sure you are denying him the sra and shipping out all resources and oil you can. if he is going to make a big push for pearl then he is going to have to slow down his moves there which means denying him resources longer. as the us you want to keep your assault strength and cvs intacted. as long as you do that your in good shape. he is more than likely just trying to lure out your cvs bbs and infantry divs to destroy them.

[ChickenOfTheSea]

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

Bobo...don't you think the Nells and Betty would'nt prove a very bad annoyance for the AK near Pearl ? That it could give the dreaded Zero a base to cover his monster KB, and else?
( i hear your advice, i just still wonder).

Your B-17's can be used to suppress the airfield on Johnston I. Use fighters at Pearl to provide LRCAP for incoming convoys. If you can get him into an early battle of attrition somewhere, it works to your advantage.

[engineer]

I'll second the advice above. 
- One carrier vs. KB is suicide (three carriers vs. KB is, too.)  Brave Sir Robin isn't a bad idea in December 1941.  If you keep them alive long enough to add Yorktown and Hornet to the fleet, then he has a real headache since you'll end up in a game of cat & mouse.  If the Japanese lose, it's for keeps.  If you lose, the carriers come back in 18 months as Essex class flat-tops.
- Get plenty of supplies into Pearl to prolong any siege.  The Hawaiian Islands aren't essential for the Allies, they may buy a year for the Japanese if he can take them without suffering a lot of losses.  The Japanese can throw enough lightly prepped divisions to take Pearl early, but it slows everything else down.  If he waits until his divisions are prepped, then you set the stage for a KB killing fleet battle where your carriers are sailing under clouds of LBA.
- One of the dilemmas that the Japanese face is that making any island strong enough to be impregnable makes it an incredibly attractive self-administered POW camp for a clever Allied player to isolate and bypass. 
- Bombing Johnston:  You get a lot more B-17E's than he get's trained flyers.  The A6M2 is fragile enough that your B-17's will make a serious dent in anything short of an "astrodome" CAP, and if he has that many Zero's in the middle of the Pacific, then you should have a lot easier time in the SRA or SW Pacific. 
- Sub pickets:  Your fleet subs have an awful dud rate early in the game.  That means the most useful missions you have for them are evacuations out of the Philippines, minelaying, and picket duty. 
- Pearl is a big enough port to service minelayers.  Use your DM's to build up the defensive minefields around Pearl and the outer islands  

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

Bobo...don't you think the Nells and Betty would'nt prove a very bad annoyance for the AK near Pearl ? That it could give the dreaded Zero a base to cover his monster KB, and else?
( i hear your advice, i just still wonder).

Pearl is outside Zero range from Johnston; it's about 14 hexes IIRC. Flying Bettys without escort.......just keep some sort of CAP up, and it will put a stop to that. Unescorted Bettys don't do well against a CAP.

You have gotten good advice here. I have heard reference to "Sir Robin", I think you should fight for ground and delay the Japs rather than a Sir Robin, but the one asset you shouldn't commit at this point is the CVs. They should run and hide. But all your other assets, I would seek to delay the Japanese as much as possible.

Keep careful track of the IJA Division-size formations that are non-restricted at start. For him to really go after Pearl, 5 or 6 of these would have to finish whatever else they are working on, which is probably the SRA. That makes delay there double important (to another person's advice, which is good). The IJA divisions at start are 2,4,16,18,21,33,38,48,55,56,Imperial Guard, plus 65th Bde, 56th Bde, 23 and 24 mixed Bdes are other big units to track. I may have missed a division, going off memory here.

[gladiatt]

Thanks to all for the advices and hints (Q-Ball, Engineer, Bobo, Chicken).
i am trying for the moment to guess where he want to go in SRA; and i try for the time being to keep my CV alive.

I will keep good advice from all of you (and sorry if not good english [:o] ).

[Feinder]

If Japan wants to capture Johnston in December (or January or February for that matter), there isn't much yuo can do to stop them.

If you find yourself up against Japan that is that agressive, you actually little choice but to duck and cover.  No shame in that if it's the best option.
 
-F-

[gladiatt]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


Keep careful track of the IJA Division-size formations that are non-restricted at start. For him to really go after Pearl, 5 or 6 of these would have to finish whatever else they are working on, which is probably the SRA. That makes delay there double important (to another person's advice, which is good). The IJA divisions at start are 2,4,16,18,21,33,38,48,55,56,Imperial Guard, plus 65th Bde, 56th Bde, 23 and 24 mixed Bdes are other big units to track. I may have missed a division, going off memory here.

I have tracks of few units indeed: 5e Div, 18e : Khota Bharu.
38e at Canton after taking Hong Kong. 56e bde just land in Menado. 65e Be in Aparri. Another Bde in Songkhia.
Not much else against me for the time being.... it could mean that my opponent has 7 div free for Pearl.....
We will see...
Thanks for the info.

[Oldguard1970]

Bonjour Gladiatt,

Vous avez de la chance! I would be delighted if my Japanese opponent over-extended himself by taking Johnston. You can pound on him with B-17s for weeks. You can gloat as he has to spend precious resources pushing supplies to whatever garrison he leaves there. Later, (after your CV force is ready to challenge the KB), you can take it back.

I support the idea of hiding your CVs until you can mass 5 of them into a striking force.

I also support the idea of trying to rattle the Japanese player by using a fighting withdrawal rather than a full Sir Robin. In the early game, the allied player can have great fun setting minor traps to sting the Japanese player and delay his advance.

[gladiatt]

Hi Oldguard.

In term of luck ( chance) i feel i don't have a lot: my dutch sub (the only with usefull torpedoes) did seen many CA but so far only a jap DD, previously damaged by a mine, was torpedoed and sunk. The Nells are everywhere, if not the Nell, it's the Kate of Mini KB. My warships usually can't reach his ships. My planes had suffer so much losses that in a week of time i am reduce to silence. This is for SRA area.
For the Central or Soutpacific, it is even worse: i don't have force to fight with.
For the moment, i am more then inclined in a "Brave Sir Robin" strategy.
Although many players on this forum had for years debated of the advantages of fighting early, i see no interesst in fighting in only one way: being crushed early without being able to strike back.

Thanks anyway to you (and all the others who gave advice) for the advice.
I'll try to do my best. If Jan (my opponant) want to beat me, he will have to force me to the 4 points versus 1 ratio in december 42....at least that is what i must do, i owe him this game as much as he owe me this game. If he is better than me, well, my ego will suffer for weeks, but i'll try not to hinder his joice of winning the game. But....it is not done yet.

[Feinder]

A strong defense works well enough for the Allies if Japan opens relatively historically, or even "rather agressively".  But if you're fighting a "very agressive" Japanese opponent, he's doing everything he can for an auto-victory asap.

Frankly (IMO), the criticm of the Sir Robin defense is over-rated.  The extremely agressive Japanese openings is no more realistic or strategicly well played, than Sir Robin.  Neither a Japan invading everywhere, or the Allies running like the wind were remotely likely, so in-game, if one is viable, then so is the other.

He's playing to win, and so should you.  An extremely aggressive Japan is most likely just running a "script" of opening moves.  He knows where your stuff is and isn't, and he's gobbling up everything.  IMO, it's not really about strategy at that point, it's about executing a script that been run dozens of times (with as few mistakes/surprises as possible).  It's a formula that tinkered and tweaked to insure the maximum yield where it's going to hurt the most.

Don't get me wrong.  You may well end up against a very agressive Japanse opponent who has no clue what's he doing.  In which case the game will be over by April.  But MOST Japanese players know EXACTLY what they're doing.

That being said, none of my Japanese PBEM opponents have been bug-nutts agressive.  Agressive yes.  I lost northern Oz to Bilbow, and I still haven't captured it in early 44.  But in none of my games have I ever needed to play the Sir Robin card.  But I'd take no shame in pulling a Sir Robin, if faced with a very aggressive script.

-F-

[gladiatt]

Feinder, thanks for your advice.
I feel no particular shame for the "Sir Robin": if i can't fight (wether because i am dumb, or because my opponant is more skilled than me), i will pull back until i find a place to resist.
About some script of my japanese opponant: i think every jap player has an idea of what he want to do at the beginning of the game: we are really early in the game (turn 11 only), my force are widespread all around the map; the planes are not good, the experience is low, the zero have the bonus, and so on. I am trying to gather some forces, but without running in a deathstar of kates or betty.....too late obviously for Johnston.
Later i will try to make him react rather than me.

For now the orders are "survive" !

[Mistmatz]

Taking Johnson Isl. makes imho only sense if he's going for the real thing...

So make sure you defend PH properly or at least take a heavy toll when he goes for it. He'll have lots of logistical problems supporting such an invasion (especially fuel), which might provide good opportunities for your CVs.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

Taking Johnson Isl. makes imho only sense if he's going for the real thing...

So make sure you defend PH properly or at least take a heavy toll when he goes for it. He'll have lots of logistical problems supporting such an invasion (especially fuel), which might provide good opportunities for your CVs.

Unless he's trying to mess with your mind. The pattern fits, he ignored Pearl Harbor, grabbed Johnson Is, and I'd expect him to do something else to drive you batty. Carrier raid on the west coast? Grab an Aleutian Island? Bombard Brisbane? Who knows, except that it will be 1) unexpected 2) all flash and no fire 3) intended only to screw with you head, and hopefull provoke a rash action from you.

[engineer]

Feinder: 
IMO, it's not really about strategy at that point, it's about executing a script that been run dozens of times (with as few mistakes/surprises as possible).  It's a formula that tinkered and tweaked to insure the maximum yield where it's going to hurt the most.

 
I think Feinder is onto something here.  The first few months of the game are a window where the Japanese can do just about anything so the key that you have to do is survive and break their script.  Possible script breakers:

• Use your naval assets in the SRA to launch some night surface raids on his likely invasion targets.  Don't linger - hit and run is the name of the game. 
• Use some political points to pry loose a Dutch battalion or regiment and move them to a key target like Palembang or Balikpapan so the calculated assault force is no longer sufficient to over-run the target on schedule.  The Aussie battalions at Darwin are another mobile reserve asset you can use to interrupt the script.
• Unless you've moved the AVG to Singapore so you have good CAP, pull your Martin's and Hudsons back to Palembang and just keep enough recon at Singapore to direct the planes to hit the invading convoys at Khotu Baru/Kuantan/Mersing
• Before you lose your minelayers lay some defensive minefields at likely landing spots.  I prefer to put down one big field than a number of smaller fields, but that's a personal preference.  You don't have any tenders or nearby size 9 ports so the minelayers can't reload east of India or west of Oz so that sets a question on what to do with the ML after dropping the mines.  You can "Sir Robin" them out of harm's way or leave them in place as forlorn hopes. 
• You should also use some Political Points to identify which units you want to salvage from the Philippines and the Indies.  Usually aviation support assets and air units are the most useful.  The Dutch recon squadrons will upgrade to Lightnings and the Martins will upgrade to Mitchells.  Saving one or two Philippine LCU's is also a somewhat gamey but useful ploy (use sub evac) since you'll accrue those squads even thought the Empire will end up occupying the Philippines. You can save political points by waiting until the unit has wasted away a significant portion of it's strength and then spend the PP to re-assign the HQ. The LCU's, once rebuilt, are useful for garrison purposes. 

The Allied early challenge is conducting a fighting withdrawal.  At any given point the Japanese can be overwhelmingly invincible, but they don't have enough strength to be invincible everywhere.  Killing off those precious 70 and 80 experience pilots (especially if they are still in Nates, Claudes, or Nells) is lot easier than when they get into much better planes in 1942.  Another point to bear in mind is that your inexperienced pilots in the SRA grow up fast if they survive.  Very low hit rates during the first couple weeks of the war are to be expected, but as the game moves into late December and January you'll see those pilots starting to score hits.

[bobogoboom]

ORIGINAL: engineer

Feinder: 
IMO, it's not really about strategy at that point, it's about executing a script that been run dozens of times (with as few mistakes/surprises as possible).  It's a formula that tinkered and tweaked to insure the maximum yield where it's going to hurt the most.

I think Feinder is onto something here.  The first few months of the game are a window where the Japanese can do just about anything so the key that you have to do is survive and break their script.  Possible script breakers:

• Use your naval assets in the SRA to launch some night surface raids on his likely invasion targets.  Don't linger - hit and run is the name of the game. 
• Use some political points to pry loose a Dutch battalion or regiment and move them to a key target like Palembang or Balikpapan so the calculated assault force is no longer sufficient to over-run the target on schedule.  The Aussie battalions at Darwin are another mobile reserve asset you can use to interrupt the script.
• Unless you've moved the AVG to Singapore so you have good CAP, pull your Martin's and Hudsons back to Palembang and just keep enough recon at Singapore to direct the planes to hit the invading convoys at Khotu Baru/Kuantan/Mersing
• Before you lose your minelayers lay some defensive minefields at likely landing spots.  I prefer to put down one big field than a number of smaller fields, but that's a personal preference.  You don't have any tenders or nearby size 9 ports so the minelayers can't reload east of India or west of Oz so that sets a question on what to do with the ML after dropping the mines.  You can "Sir Robin" them out of harm's way or leave them in place as forlorn hopes. 
• You should also use some Political Points to identify which units you want to salvage from the Philippines and the Indies.  Usually aviation support assets and air units are the most useful.  The Dutch recon squadrons will upgrade to Lightnings and the Martins will upgrade to Mitchells.  Saving one or two Philippine LCU's is also a somewhat gamey but useful ploy (use sub evac) since you'll accrue those squads even thought the Empire will end up occupying the Philippines. You can save political points by waiting until the unit has wasted away a significant portion of it's strength and then spend the PP to re-assign the HQ. The LCU's, once rebuilt, are useful for garrison purposes. 

The Allied early challenge is conducting a fighting withdrawal.  At any given point the Japanese can be overwhelmingly invincible, but they don't have enough strength to be invincible everywhere.  Killing off those precious 70 and 80 experience pilots (especially if they are still in Nates, Claudes, or Nells) is lot easier than when they get into much better planes in 1942.  Another point to bear in mind is that your inexperienced pilots in the SRA grow up fast if they survive.  Very low hit rates during the first couple weeks of the war are to be expected, but as the game moves into late December and January you'll see those pilots starting to score hits.

in chs you can move the mle from colombo(or the other port on that island) in to the sra to mine. just make sure to have it bug out well before it is in danger same thing with your mine layers they can help a whole lot in defending oz and new zeland so be careful with them.