Wir III

itsjustme0770 · Post by **itsjustme0770** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:31 pm

Given the "Just went gold" status of Uncommon Valor, and the fact that it looks pretty (in the words of Bobby Bowden) dadgum amazing, I'd be curious to know the answer to a couple of questions.....

1. How many of you will be playing this new game?

2. Much more importantly, how realistic do you think Wir III is? I mean does Gary really understand the fanaticism that still surrounds WIR (a DOS based game approaching 20 years of age)?

3. What do we need to do to convince him of our fanaticism if he doesn't understand it?

Just interested in hearing your thoughts and opinions......

thantis · Post by **thantis** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:48 pm

1) Definitely will be playing UV (there goes the marriage

)

2) WIR III - could be interesting, definitely needs the update (graphics, ai, new information coming out of Russia regarding the campaigns - such as Operation Mars, losses at Kursk, etc). Its a shame Road to Moscow will never see the light of day.

3) Convince at least 500,000 - 1,000,000 people to poney up pre-orders for the game

Really, besides the people on this board and a few thousand others there really isn't a huge fan base for a strategic Eastern Front wargame. I wish it wasn't so, but with the kind of money & time necessary for something of that magnitude, its a longshot.

I love WIR, still play it constantly. I'd love to see an update (or complete reworking) but I don't know how likely it would be.

itsjustme0770 · Post by **itsjustme0770** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:57 pm

Your reply intrigues me..... what is the market expectation for UV and subsequently WitP? How many do they need to sell to acheive their expected return? Is the demand for a Strategic Pacific Theater game really that much greater than one for the Eastern Front? I really don't know one way or the other. Of course, I am pretty biased as I believe that the Russians won the war pretty much on their own and that Japan ultimately had very little if any realistic chance of acheiving an ultimate victory.

thantis · Post by **thantis** » Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:08 pm

The US is the largest market for computer software (especially gaming software). An Eastern Front game is fun for us grogs, but the average person isn't as affected by it, as opposed to the War in the Pacific, which was almost entirely a US show - Remember Pearl Harbor and the such....

I also don't know how many copies Matrix needs to sell to break even, but I would say that they've done enough market research before proceeding on these two titles.

The biggest problem we (as true wargamers) are facing today is the **** RTS'ers out there (kinda the way my wargaming group always hated those Magic players - Save Gaming, Kill a Magic Player

We have a tough time competing against the more popular Red Alert clones out there, which all turn into click-fests regardless of the supposed "realism," if its a WWII version, modern, or ancient time period. I love WIR, Combat Mission, ACW, and the whole slew of 1980's & early '90's strategic & operational combat games, but we seem to be a dying breed. I can only hope that with the emergence of some of these new developers like Matrix & BTS the genre will turn around.

screamer · Post by **screamer** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:18 pm

the US is the biggest market for evrything. it would also be hard to expect a north afrika[1940 1943] or westfront may/ july 1940 game.

Vasquez · Post by **Vasquez** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:06 am

Germany is after the USA the second biggest market for computer games. I think a new WIR game will have very good chances here in germany!

Regards
Vasquez

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:12 pm

Originally posted by Vasquez
Germany is after the USA the second biggest market for computer games. I think a new WIR game will have very good chances here in germany!

An improved WIR, particularly with an AI that is at least reasonalby decent as the Soviets, would sell well everywhere. As we all here in the WIR forum know, the eastern front of WWII Europe was unique and interesting (in a horrific sort of way), we haven't seen anything like it since, and never will.
As for WitP, note that this is a GG game, and as such it will be detailed and complex, so I don't see the RTS people ever being interested (in WitP, or WIR for that matter). WitP may sell well simply because there have been few games written for the Pacific Theator of WWII. I know of only Gary's older PAC and PTO, which I've never played. On the other hand, that war was so lopsided its hard to come up with a game that could be challenging for 2 players. I believe WitP is only going to sell among the grognards out there, so you have to ask yourself, how popular is the Pacific Theator of WWII among the wargamers?
One thing I'd really love to know is how many copies of PAC and WIR did SSI sell? Was WIR really the more popular one as we seem to be assuming?

itsjustme0770 · Post by **itsjustme0770** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:10 pm

Ed,

Thanks for chiming in here. I'd agree with your points. Curious as to how difficult it would be to get a comment out of Matrix or 2by3 as to their intent? Obviously nothing binding, just really whether or not they currently intend to put WIR III front and center after WitP.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 3:04 am

Originally posted by itsjustme0770
Ed,

Thanks for chiming in here. I'd agree with your points. Curious as to how difficult it would be to get a comment out of Matrix or 2by3 as to their intent? Obviously nothing binding, just really whether or not they currently intend to put WIR III front and center after WitP.

I would love to see it front and center after WitP, but remember, Matrix has NOT picked up WiR III as a publisher, only WitP. Does Matrix's current lack of interest in WIR III mean they're not interested, or just not interested in it right now? If Matrix really isn't interested who can 2BY3 turn to to publish it? Unfortunately, Matrix and 2BY3 are busy with UV and WitP, nobody is talking about WIR III.

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:53 pm

We are interested in developing and publishing WIR with 2by3. We (Matrix & 2by3) need to see what type of sales we are going to have. We have placed our hearts into the UV design and development and we need to see how gamers are going to take to the new wargame and this new style.

We truly need to sell about 5,000+ copies to make pretty much a done deal to move on any other title.

I hope this clears this issue up a little.

David

itsjustme0770 · Post by **itsjustme0770** » Wed May 01, 2002 12:05 am

David,

Thats great (and exactly the answer I expected). I am confident that UV will do as well as you hope (heck if not, we can all buy 2 copies just to ensure that you keep producing quality games.....you could market as "give the gift of grognarding to a RTS player.......")

Thanks very much for taking the time to give us your thoughts on WIR III. I personally am looking forward to UV (even though I haven't really studied the pacific theater.

Best,

Trey

Jeff Norton · Post by **Jeff Norton** » Wed May 01, 2002 4:35 am

I'll be there with my cash!

Mike Marauder · Post by **Mike Marauder** » Wed May 01, 2002 12:25 pm

Count me in Too. I love any Game on the Eastern Front and i think this would be the pinicle of Wargaming.
The Eastern Front has so mutch to offer to Wargamers the strategy the logistics of supply the vastnas of Russia The size of the opossing Armies.
I would gladly part with my cash anyday for this game.
Thanks Mike.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:54 pm

Originally posted by David Heath
We are interested in developing and publishing WIR with 2by3. We (Matrix & 2by3) need to see what type of sales we are going to have. We have placed our hearts into the UV design and development and we need to see how gamers are going to take to the new wargame and this new style.

We truly need to sell about 5,000+ copies to make pretty much a done deal to move on any other title.

I hope this clears this issue up a little.

I didn't realize you guys were still monitoring this forum, David. Nice to see you here.

The only problem I see is the distinction between UV and WitP. Isn't UV a subset of what WitP will become? Why shouldn't I just wait for WitP since it will use a version of the UV engine? WitP is as good as sold, but I'm concerned that you seem to place WitP's and WIR III's future on the sucess of UV. If you don't sell 5,000 copies of UV does that mean WitP is dead?

mario · Post by **mario** » Thu May 02, 2002 2:20 am

I will also be glad to part with my cash for a new Wir.

By the way, now that you mention it, is it really not possible to use at least part of the work done for Road to Moscow as a starting point for a Wir III or Wir2002 or whatever you like to call a game with updated info, improved AI and REAL compatibility with modern hardware and O.S.s?
Mario

Vasquez · Post by **Vasquez** » Thu May 02, 2002 2:42 am

I am really no expert in internet-merchandising. But to sell 5000+ copies only via the internet sounds pretty much for me. But as I said. I am no expert in this thing..

VictorH · Post by **VictorH** » Thu May 02, 2002 4:51 am

I prefer the European Theatre compared to the Pacific, but will buy UV, WitP just to help encourage Matrix to market WIRIII.

I do wonder how Matrix came up with the idea that a Pacific War game would have a larger market than a European War Game?

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Thu May 02, 2002 7:58 am

Hi Ed

We all stop by from time to time. UV is just a starting point. Work on WITP has been going on for a while now. The scale makes a big difference. WITP will have a much expanded land combat system. You will be able to play the war in china or have Japan invade the Soviets. Production is not totally in your hands.

UV the operational level of play is detail. You are not sure when reinforcements are coming. How long will that damage carrier will take to repair. Will it even be available to come back to the South Pacific.

If you still have some doubts (Which I understand) wait for a review or two or drop on by the UV forum here at Matrix.

David

David Heath · Post by **David Heath** » Thu May 02, 2002 8:03 am

Hi Victor

We didn't really plan WITP first then WIR. We had already started WITP and Gary had started UV when we joined forces. UV we felt was a good point to start then move over to the whole pacific. We really wanted to get all the gamers ideas and feedback into WITP.

David

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu May 02, 2002 2:25 pm

Originally posted by mario
I will also be glad to part with my cash for a new Wir.

For WiR and WitP and I'll wait to see exactly what UV is.

By the way, now that you mention it, is it really not possible to use at least part of the work done for Road to Moscow as a starting point for a Wir III or Wir2002 or whatever

We don't even know if RTM exists as source code, or at least enough to be significant. Rumor has it that the AIs proved to be the killer for RTM. Both the computer opponent and the assistant AIs that the player would rely on. This may have happened early during testing so there may not be much actually code in existence. We at least know World in Flames isn't vaporware because there is a demo/beta of it available. The same isn't true for RTM, it just disappeared.

In any event, I wouldn't *want* 2BY3 to use someone elses code, I want GARY GRIGSBY's game, not someone elses. If I want RTM I'll buy RTM from its creators, but I'm looking forward to WIR III, because it'll be Gary's latest and greatest incarnation of something that obviously interests him. He surprised us all with Steel Panthers, to our delight, I'm hoping he'll do it again. As for doing all of Europe, one can always hope.

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