From playing a PBEM through 4 different patches I noticed some features of pilot improvement in the last two that concerned me. I decided to do some testing on the effect of training and combat on experience and pilot skills - the particular area of concern was the defense rating of pilots.
From early results of the tests (basically 3.5 weeks worth for 5 groups) I have some suspicions which I thought I would share in the hope that others might run some tests, becuase I just don't have the time to do it justice alone.
It appears that:
1) The defense rating of pilots will take a year of general taining to raise from 35 to 50.
2) Combat increases experience but does almost nothing for other skills
3) Pilot survival rates in combat over a friendly base (at least for the Allies) are unresonably high (around 75%)
4) There is no way to train naval torpedo skill.
1 and 2 are pretty much statistical certainties, 3 requires more testing. Number 4 I am the least certain about, it may be that I just haven't found the right setting (tride naval attack at various different heights with the torpedo option on).
Dealing with them in turn (summary in bold for the ADHD generation):
1) Defense Rating
Started scn head to head. Stood everything down, cancelled invasions etc. Then set-up 8-10 groups to train. A few on each side were set to 100% general training and others to 100% train in sweep, escort, naval or airfield.
The only feature I was interested in for the 'general training' squadrons was the defense rating. Concentrated on the 87th Sentai.
I excluded pilots with over 60 defense rating as they are already trained and should probably only gain improvements through combat (which they don't, but we'll come on to that)
Ran from Dec 07 to Jan 1 and noted the results in bands:
Defense rating____Number of pilots____Total gain____Average/pilot
20 to 40______________13_____________21___________1.61
41 to 50______________27_____________21___________0.77
51 to 60_______________6______________0_____________0
61+__________________2______________0_____________0
The result is replicated across the four other groups (ie nobody above a 50 rating in defense gained anything. Below this, pikots gained 1 or 2 points in the 24 days the test took)
This means that with a starting defense rating of 35, your average pilot will reach 40 in approximately 72 days and 50 in a further 311 days. Call it a year to get to the bottom end of combat ready (IMO).
2) Combat effect
Bought the 87th out of Manchuria, re-equiped them with Oscar 1c's and set them sweeping Manilla fro Tainan. Put 50 P40E's on 100% CAP. The actual results of the battles were unimportant, just what happened to the defense rating of pilots when they engaged in combat and additionally if they shot down an enemy plane. I reran the sweep 10 times (running a different night mission somewhere on the map to ensure results were randomised)
In total there were 252 air to air kills reported on the info screen. Not a single pilot saw any increase in their defense rating despite all that lead flying around. Air rating too was pretty much untouched. Only experience seemed to increase.
NB the 252 was from the info screen. I only noticed that the numbers claimed by pilots did not match iwth the info screen halfway through. From later results it seems that 25% were these unclaimed 'too-damamged-to-repair' kills. Therefore in reality the sample group is around 189 rather than 252
3) Pilot Survival Over Friendly Base
In doing the test in 2 I noticed that Allied KIA/MIA from the combats seemed unfeasibly low. During the battles a total of 91 P40's were lost. Using the 75% rate for actual kills gives 68 results were an Allied pilot may have been lost. In total there were 31 WIA's, 10 KIA's and 8 MIA's (I see the old WITP insanity lives on). Giving a survival rate of a little under 75%
The only reason I concentrated on the Allies here was it is their base. I am not suggesting AFB bias as I am guessing (not yet having done the test) that a similar result would be achieved if the roles were reversed.
Statistically I'm on less stable ground here than No 2 as the sample gorup is a lot smaller and the results more equivocal. So I'm not 100% certain this isn't an anomalous result.
4. Naval Torp Training
As noted above, just can't find a way of affecting this skill. Even general training doesn't seem to touch it.
Conclusion
This area needs looking at. It's the sort of thing that will not matter for a year, but as later Allied squadrons come in with higher exp (and therefore defense rating) they will flush the value of existing veteran pilots, no matter how many fights they hagve been in and how many kills as it stands.
In particular the lack of improvement in air and defense rating of fighter pilots in combat, even when the pilots involved had low ratings to begin with, is worrying. I very much support the reduction of the efficiency of training in the last two patches, but I think there has been an over compensation. Not gaining skill through combat is plain daft.
If the pilot starts low, there should be gains in defense rating simply for being shot at and surviving. Clearly as pilots get better it should be harder to improve, but there has to be a way to achieve the sort of skill levels, for both sides, that the IJ starting pilots have......otherwise, how the hell did they get there?
Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
ORIGINAL: Yakface
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4. Naval Torp Training
As noted above, just can't find a way of affecting this skill. Even general training doesn't seem to touch it.
Supposedly IIRC Michaelm mentioned that to raise torp skillz planes must have torps and train at 100 feet altitude.
Quoting: (a) Plane has torpedo and Altitude is 100 and mission is GM_NAV_ATTACK, skill is changed to SKILL_NAV_TORP;
Kind regards,
Rasmus
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
ORIGINAL: Yakface
In total there were 252 air to air kills reported on the info screen. Not a single pilot saw any increase in their defense rating despite all that lead flying around. Air rating too was pretty much untouched. Only experience seemed to increase.
same in my game, indeed something is very wrong
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Originally in the base version three separate factors used to increase when in air combat - experience, air and defense. During the first upgrade we lost that and only the experience seemed to be affected by air combat. I questioned this and suggested the Devs take a look at this since it didn't make sense. There was a little discussion about it and they were looking at revising it but it would be too late for the first patch. I hope it is still being considered.
On the naval torpedo training it was mentioned that 100 feet was the altitude to train it on however you can also train on low level naval skill under 5000 feet which may impact this but not sure. The training section was tinkered with from the original release and I sure hope the Devs look at making some changes for Patch 2 to get this back to something that makes more sense.
Pete
On the naval torpedo training it was mentioned that 100 feet was the altitude to train it on however you can also train on low level naval skill under 5000 feet which may impact this but not sure. The training section was tinkered with from the original release and I sure hope the Devs look at making some changes for Patch 2 to get this back to something that makes more sense.
Pete
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
I concur that not only has this aspect changed from release. But only some points better others worse.
The only real skills that change now (1084 slowly now) thru training are the very low skill ratings (<50) and not by very much. Most increases occur in Naval search and air (more so than others). Since NO skills increase with combat you will never increase to ratings that pilots that start the game or with airgroups have. Is that what was intended by the developers?
The only real skills that change now (1084 slowly now) thru training are the very low skill ratings (<50) and not by very much. Most increases occur in Naval search and air (more so than others). Since NO skills increase with combat you will never increase to ratings that pilots that start the game or with airgroups have. Is that what was intended by the developers?
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CV Zuikaku
- Posts: 442
- Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:25 pm
- Location: Legrad, Croatia
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
I do not like new training "tweaking" which makes training useless. Or are we wrong? If not, something have to be changed! [:(]
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
My 2 cents,
I found that pre patch the development was too fast in training and that it did need a tweek. Seems to me its gona a bit overboard tho.
From a small sample and my gut feeling. It seems doing some "on the job training" on chinease peasents, the thing i gathered dev's was trying to get away from is "back". Read as its now faster to bomb/strafe than training again, like in the good ol WITP days.
Annecdotecly speaking. I started 1 of my PBEM games by setting all the squadrons in Eastern USA on 100% training. A week later out of all those pilots one has risen 1 in skill.
Its gona be a long war[:D]
Kind regards,
Rasmus
I found that pre patch the development was too fast in training and that it did need a tweek. Seems to me its gona a bit overboard tho.
From a small sample and my gut feeling. It seems doing some "on the job training" on chinease peasents, the thing i gathered dev's was trying to get away from is "back". Read as its now faster to bomb/strafe than training again, like in the good ol WITP days.
Annecdotecly speaking. I started 1 of my PBEM games by setting all the squadrons in Eastern USA on 100% training. A week later out of all those pilots one has risen 1 in skill.
Its gona be a long war[:D]
Kind regards,
Rasmus
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
I thought I was imagining things tbh. But I too have noticed that the same training setups seem to have much less effect post patch. I will try to spend more time looking at it this weekend in order to be a bit more " scientific " about my comment.
" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Thanks for the pointers for torp training guys. Will try it out.
Glad others are seeing the same thing - Got to be fixed sooner rather than later as the whole air bit of the game is probably the most important, has to be got right.
Glad others are seeing the same thing - Got to be fixed sooner rather than later as the whole air bit of the game is probably the most important, has to be got right.
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Central Blue
- Posts: 695
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:31 pm
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
I am not having all of these problems with training. I have previously reported that some of my pilots continue to train pretty darn well even when they have been stood down.
What works for me, as the Allies, is training within range of a decent leader and having the best available leader for the squadron (which is why I don't have enough points to move the 41st ID to OZ yet).
I also start them on general skills till they reach around 50-55. This seems to work best for improving defense as well. Once they get to around the plus 50 level, they seem to train a little faster on the skills. However, I am also experimenting with training the fighters on sweep rather than escort to help boost defense ratings. I notice that some models pick up additional skills while working on sweeps. My P-39's and P-400's occasionally add bonus points for strafing or bombing.
I also agree that training at 100' helps develop some more specific skills.
Life in a combat zone is tougher. I agree that actual combat doesn't do much more than add experience. In defending a place like Port Moresby in the early war, I generally have them on 40% CAP and 30% training, then I make sure that I don't fly in any missions that they are required to escort, because they get chewed up pretty darn fast if you start doing that.
I follow the same ratio for the ASW planes that I have to have active, but I try to do this with the 18 plane squadrons, while the 12 plane squadrons are on training only. Wirraways have a use after all. Currently I fly them at 1000'. Eventually they will go to 100'. They don't attack the subs yet, but they make better spotters than the ships getting torpedoed.
For those units that enter with 2 planes, I fill out the complement of pilots, and put them on 90% training. For all units, I add extra pilots to the group, which seems to help lower fatigue.
I wish I had started this training style earlier, but I seem to be making up for lost time. it makes sense to me that it would be easier to teach the skills to people that are generally better fliers to begin with.
Nothing works in China.
I don't know if the pilot survival rates are historically accurate. I do know that the Americans, at least, put extraordinary effort into getting their pilots back. There is a wonderful description of one such pilot recovery in Tales of the South Pacific. And there is a lot to be said for getting shot down over friendly territory, IIRC from my reading about the Battle of Britain. I expect things to be less rosy once the Allies can go on the offensive.
What works for me, as the Allies, is training within range of a decent leader and having the best available leader for the squadron (which is why I don't have enough points to move the 41st ID to OZ yet).
I also start them on general skills till they reach around 50-55. This seems to work best for improving defense as well. Once they get to around the plus 50 level, they seem to train a little faster on the skills. However, I am also experimenting with training the fighters on sweep rather than escort to help boost defense ratings. I notice that some models pick up additional skills while working on sweeps. My P-39's and P-400's occasionally add bonus points for strafing or bombing.
I also agree that training at 100' helps develop some more specific skills.
Life in a combat zone is tougher. I agree that actual combat doesn't do much more than add experience. In defending a place like Port Moresby in the early war, I generally have them on 40% CAP and 30% training, then I make sure that I don't fly in any missions that they are required to escort, because they get chewed up pretty darn fast if you start doing that.
I follow the same ratio for the ASW planes that I have to have active, but I try to do this with the 18 plane squadrons, while the 12 plane squadrons are on training only. Wirraways have a use after all. Currently I fly them at 1000'. Eventually they will go to 100'. They don't attack the subs yet, but they make better spotters than the ships getting torpedoed.
For those units that enter with 2 planes, I fill out the complement of pilots, and put them on 90% training. For all units, I add extra pilots to the group, which seems to help lower fatigue.
I wish I had started this training style earlier, but I seem to be making up for lost time. it makes sense to me that it would be easier to teach the skills to people that are generally better fliers to begin with.
Nothing works in China.
I don't know if the pilot survival rates are historically accurate. I do know that the Americans, at least, put extraordinary effort into getting their pilots back. There is a wonderful description of one such pilot recovery in Tales of the South Pacific. And there is a lot to be said for getting shot down over friendly territory, IIRC from my reading about the Battle of Britain. I expect things to be less rosy once the Allies can go on the offensive.
USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
I've also seen that training is much less effective in the public beta and first patch. I see general experience go up occasionally, but not very much, and specific skills go up even less frequently, even for units on 100% train. IIRC, one of the attributes publicized for AE was "we got rid of the bomb an empty base and become a fighter ace" problem/opportunity but in return were supposed to get a training system that actually allowed you to train your units over time. The original release lived up to this, perhaps was a little fast in training. But in the current patches, based both on PBEM and some quick tests I've run it seems like training is relatively ineffective.
I have no problems with the concept that you can't get a skill level of 70 or 80 through training alone, but it seems that one should be able to bump a 15 or 20 up to "on the low end of barely competent" in a reasonable amount of time.
I have no problems with the concept that you can't get a skill level of 70 or 80 through training alone, but it seems that one should be able to bump a 15 or 20 up to "on the low end of barely competent" in a reasonable amount of time.
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Unfortunately AE seems to be going back to WITP style of training more and more with every new patch.
The one thing I particularly don't like is the fact that when you disband air group into Trained pilot pool pilots take experience hit (and maybe skill hit too), the better the pilots the more they lose. Pilots in the 60s lose 5-6 points, those in the 80s lose 8-9 points. When you disband air group directly into another air group there is no penalty, and the effect is that it forces player to manually fly replacements all over the map and disband one group into another (Mogami's training), instead of using the great improvement the Trained pilot pool was supposed to be.
The way it is now, if you manually micromanage every single air group, plan in advance and predict what you will need in the time when your pilots are done with training and combat ready, and you start flying training squadrons towards front line you will hopefully have replacements in the right place at the right time.
If you are not micromanagement freak and use convenient Trained pilot pool as a go-between for your air groups you will suffer penalties that will effectively nullify large part of the improvements you gained with training, making all the developers' efforts put in new great functions like Get new pilot, Draw one aircraft, limits to pulling reinforcements every day and Trained pilot pool itself redundant.
The one thing I particularly don't like is the fact that when you disband air group into Trained pilot pool pilots take experience hit (and maybe skill hit too), the better the pilots the more they lose. Pilots in the 60s lose 5-6 points, those in the 80s lose 8-9 points. When you disband air group directly into another air group there is no penalty, and the effect is that it forces player to manually fly replacements all over the map and disband one group into another (Mogami's training), instead of using the great improvement the Trained pilot pool was supposed to be.
The way it is now, if you manually micromanage every single air group, plan in advance and predict what you will need in the time when your pilots are done with training and combat ready, and you start flying training squadrons towards front line you will hopefully have replacements in the right place at the right time.
If you are not micromanagement freak and use convenient Trained pilot pool as a go-between for your air groups you will suffer penalties that will effectively nullify large part of the improvements you gained with training, making all the developers' efforts put in new great functions like Get new pilot, Draw one aircraft, limits to pulling reinforcements every day and Trained pilot pool itself redundant.
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
ORIGINAL: Djordje
---If you are not micromanagement freak and use convenient Trained pilot pool as a go-between for your air groups you will suffer penalties that will effectively nullify large part of the improvements you gained with training, making all the developers' efforts put in new great functions like Get new pilot, Draw one aircraft, limits to pulling reinforcements every day and Trained pilot pool itself redundant.
Amen.[:(]
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Dunno how this might be worked into things, but in vanilla, you could increase experience simply by assigning a unit to "supply" its' own hex........Low risk, low supplies used, great and steady increase in experience.
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CV Zuikaku
- Posts: 442
- Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:25 pm
- Location: Legrad, Croatia
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Yes, they completely screwed up the training after patch "tweaking".
Djordje, are you using training groups? Do you know why fresh trainees can not be pulled into the groups when I send the experienced ones into reserve pool? I chenge the group aircraft type, transfer a few repaired ones to new base and disband the rest. Now I have training groups with 3 pilots, and I can add aircraft to those units, but can not draw trainee pilots [:@] Anyone got the solution for this problem?
Djordje, are you using training groups? Do you know why fresh trainees can not be pulled into the groups when I send the experienced ones into reserve pool? I chenge the group aircraft type, transfer a few repaired ones to new base and disband the rest. Now I have training groups with 3 pilots, and I can add aircraft to those units, but can not draw trainee pilots [:@] Anyone got the solution for this problem?
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
ORIGINAL: m10bob
Dunno how this might be worked into things, but in vanilla, you could increase experience simply by assigning a unit to "supply" its' own hex........Low risk, low supplies used, great and steady increase in experience.
That's probably one of the old training methods I'd be keen to avoid, along with bombing Chinese peasants to become a crack fighter pilot and naval search to become an effective land bomber. My impression of the separate skills for separate actions is that it is an attempt to get away from a one-size-fits-all expereience rating covering every task.
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Torpedo skill can be hard to train, but I'm not sure that it's necessary in the current version of the game. Consider this combat report from my current game vs. the Japanese AI:
This and similar results in my game leave me wondering whether the combat routines might not be checking NavT skill they way they probably ought to.
Those Cat drivers had NavT skills ranging from the teens to the mid-30's, with the best shot having a 39. Allied fanboy that I am, I think this sort of result is a bit out of whack. I'll grant that it wouldn't have likely happened in a PBEM game. A human opponent would have had air cover for that TF, or at least better AA escorts. (There were some DDs along, I think, but the AI lost most of them before this attack took place (which was September 15, 1943).Afternoon Air attack on TF, near New Hanover Island at 104,122
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
PBY-5A Catalina x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged
Japanese Ships
BB Hiei, Torpedo hits 7, and is sunk
CL Oyodo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x PBY-5A Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
This and similar results in my game leave me wondering whether the combat routines might not be checking NavT skill they way they probably ought to.
Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
I have also noticed in 1084 that actual combat experience is very rare except for fighter pilots who get a kill. The bombers who have good accuracy and even hit ships/bases rarely get an experience boost and NO skill boosts.
And naval search combat experience is missing. I have PBY's spotting numerous task forces in PI who used to get experience increases for it nicely. Now absolutely ZERO experience from all their spotting.
And naval search combat experience is missing. I have PBY's spotting numerous task forces in PI who used to get experience increases for it nicely. Now absolutely ZERO experience from all their spotting.
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
It seems to me that the whole character of the air war in AE is substantially different than in WITP. There has already been a lot of discussion about the the Japanese being able to build (theoretically) an virtually unlimited number of aircraft. I also notice that their supply of pilots is, in effect, more than adequate to replace any casualties they sustain. In WITP scenario 15 I see the following figures for some of the key combatants:
Group Pilot pool Pilot replacement rate
IJA 400 20
IJN 100 10
USN 200 60
USA 800 200
USMC 200 60
Oz 400 40
In AE the replacement rates change over time. In 1941 the starting pool and replacement rates are:
IJA 2202 195
IJN 1700 150
USN 6770 600
USA 4935 435
USMC 1270 115
Oz 815 70
However, by 1943 the replacement rates jump
IJA 615
IJN 480
USN 1160
USA 1475
USMC 105
Oz 55
Given the relatively low number of casualties pilots are experiencing it seems that the pool of pilots will become essentially "unlimited" for Japan and the US. I have read threads that indicate a lowering of the quality of Japanese pilots towards the end of 1942, but this can be explained by the simple number of pilots coming into service and the number of squadrons of airplanes the Japanese are able to build. If training is in fact a problem, as some people are beginning to suspect, then both sides will have an increasingly large percentage of "low" skill pilots in their pools. On the other hand, in my current game it seems I have already sunk over 10% of the Japanese supply of xAKs, and I am still early in 1942. If this continues I may begin to crimp their ability to build new planes, but I wonder if I can ever get them below the replacement rate.
I'm not sure what to conclude from all this, but I am beginning to suspect that:
1. pushing back the Japanese air forces requires a "great deal" of micromanagement (based on comments in other threads).
2. attrition against the Japanese air forces is not nearly as powerful as it was in WITP, and may never be very susbstantive in terms of their ability to put squads in the air
3. the most vulnerable component of the Japanese war machine is their merchant marine
4. the allied air forces are not likely to be dominant "gamebreakers" like in WITP or in the actual combat of WW2.
However, having restarted several times I have not taken the game very far, and my style of play may influence my perception of the game. I have read what others are experiencing and some seem to see things close to what I see so far, while others seem to see it very differently. I would be interested to see how others factor the pilot pool replacement rates into their assessments of AE.
Group Pilot pool Pilot replacement rate
IJA 400 20
IJN 100 10
USN 200 60
USA 800 200
USMC 200 60
Oz 400 40
In AE the replacement rates change over time. In 1941 the starting pool and replacement rates are:
IJA 2202 195
IJN 1700 150
USN 6770 600
USA 4935 435
USMC 1270 115
Oz 815 70
However, by 1943 the replacement rates jump
IJA 615
IJN 480
USN 1160
USA 1475
USMC 105
Oz 55
Given the relatively low number of casualties pilots are experiencing it seems that the pool of pilots will become essentially "unlimited" for Japan and the US. I have read threads that indicate a lowering of the quality of Japanese pilots towards the end of 1942, but this can be explained by the simple number of pilots coming into service and the number of squadrons of airplanes the Japanese are able to build. If training is in fact a problem, as some people are beginning to suspect, then both sides will have an increasingly large percentage of "low" skill pilots in their pools. On the other hand, in my current game it seems I have already sunk over 10% of the Japanese supply of xAKs, and I am still early in 1942. If this continues I may begin to crimp their ability to build new planes, but I wonder if I can ever get them below the replacement rate.
I'm not sure what to conclude from all this, but I am beginning to suspect that:
1. pushing back the Japanese air forces requires a "great deal" of micromanagement (based on comments in other threads).
2. attrition against the Japanese air forces is not nearly as powerful as it was in WITP, and may never be very susbstantive in terms of their ability to put squads in the air
3. the most vulnerable component of the Japanese war machine is their merchant marine
4. the allied air forces are not likely to be dominant "gamebreakers" like in WITP or in the actual combat of WW2.
However, having restarted several times I have not taken the game very far, and my style of play may influence my perception of the game. I have read what others are experiencing and some seem to see things close to what I see so far, while others seem to see it very differently. I would be interested to see how others factor the pilot pool replacement rates into their assessments of AE.
RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat
Tom
In WITP the Japanese pilots came in with potentially frontline experience levels. After the 10 or 20 pilots with 60 or 70 exp there were an unlimited number of 30/35 exp pilots available which would need on map traiing. As it stands in AE all the replacement pilots need to spend a year training to be at the bottom end of usefulness. Too long IMO and will absorb too many groups into a training rather than combat role.
In WITP the Japanese pilots came in with potentially frontline experience levels. After the 10 or 20 pilots with 60 or 70 exp there were an unlimited number of 30/35 exp pilots available which would need on map traiing. As it stands in AE all the replacement pilots need to spend a year training to be at the bottom end of usefulness. Too long IMO and will absorb too many groups into a training rather than combat role.