Fortress Java - House of Cards

[ADB123]

The interesting part of playing the AI is not just the odd things that it does, but how it isn't constrained by the sorts of worries that human players have. For example, the AI isn't "concerned" about saving pilots, so it make huge numbers of air attacks. And it uses its CVs in a big way too.

So here I am in early Feb 42 in my Patch 1 game against the Japanese AI and I've been carefully husbanding my forces and setting up Java for the eventual invasions. Singapore has finally fallen, but Manila still holds. And Japanese invasion task forces flood the map, seemingly looking for any base that isn't occupied or being contested.

Then out of the blue, for the second time in this game, all but one of the Japanese CVs show up in the DEI. But this time they aren't fooling around Borneo and the southern Philippines. Four TFs surround Java and pound everything in sight into finer and finer rubble.

My carefully husbanded Dutch and British air units are smashed to bits. The couple of coordinated Allied air attacks that take off after one lone Japanese CV are swatted from the sky without causing the smallest wave around the Japanese ships. The ships in repair in Java are sunk in the drydocks, and the entire port system in Soerabaja is wiped out. To add to the carnage, LBA flies in and hits anywhere the carrier planes missed.

Suddenly, the situations in Oz and India look a LOT less secure. Sure, the AI is losing planes to AA and general mishaps, but that isn't stopping it from making certain that there will be nothing in the region to stop it once it sends in the troops.

If the AI can do this to me I don't want to see what a human opponent could do... [X(]

(Never-the-less, it's still fun, in a strange way... [;)] )

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

The interesting part of playing the AI is not just the odd things that it does, but how it isn't constrained by the sorts of worries that human players have. For example, the AI isn't "concerned" about saving pilots, so it make huge numbers of air attacks. And it uses its CVs in a big way too.

So here I am in early Feb 42 in my Patch 1 game against the Japanese AI and I've been carefully husbanding my forces and setting up Java for the eventual invasions. Singapore has finally fallen, but Manila still holds. And Japanese invasion task forces flood the map, seemingly looking for any base that isn't occupied or being contested.

Then out of the blue, for the second time in this game, all but one of the Japanese CVs show up in the DEI. But this time they aren't fooling around Borneo and the southern Philippines. Four TFs surround Java and pound everything in sight into finer and finer rubble.

My carefully husbanded Dutch and British air units are smashed to bits. The couple of coordinated Allied air attacks that take off after one lone Japanese CV are swatted from the sky without causing the smallest wave around the Japanese ships. The ships in repair in Java are sunk in the drydocks, and the entire port system in Soerabaja is wiped out. To add to the carnage, LBA flies in and hits anywhere the carrier planes missed.

Suddenly, the situations in Oz and India look a LOT less secure. Sure, the AI is losing planes to AA and general mishaps, but that isn't stopping it from making certain that there will be nothing in the region to stop it once it sends in the troops.

If the AI can do this too me I don't want to see what a human opponent could do... [X(]

(Never-the-less, it's still fun, in a strange way... [;)] )

Yup. I just had the Death Star show up near Surabaya and wreak havoc on the shipping in the port. Dec 25, have a nice Christmas! 21 ships with red all over, 13 sunk.

[scott64]

KB showed up at Sydney in Wienie Roasting in May/June 1942. [X(][X(]

[oldman45]

I got tired of the jap carriers hangin around Java so I sent the 4 US carriers over there, Sunk the Kaga when I caught it buy it self near Rabaul, Got the Hiyru (Sp) near Batavia, but now I am running like a school girl with 4 of them chasing me back to Darwin [X(]

[Boozecamp]

Sounds about right.  I've had every Japanese carrier circling Java for at least three weeks, bombing the piss out of everything.  Nuclear powered-KB with self-regenerating bomb and torpedo stores.  I'm not at all against AI advantages, but I also would've liked to have had to actually figure I could fight for Java instead of giving it up for gone in mid January.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

The interesting part of playing the AI is not just the odd things that it does, but how it isn't constrained by the sorts of worries that human players have. For example, the AI isn't "concerned" about saving pilots, so it make huge numbers of air attacks. And it uses its CVs in a big way too.

So here I am in early Feb 42 in my Patch 1 game against the Japanese AI and I've been carefully husbanding my forces and setting up Java for the eventual invasions. Singapore has finally fallen, but Manila still holds. And Japanese invasion task forces flood the map, seemingly looking for any base that isn't occupied or being contested.

Then out of the blue, for the second time in this game, all but one of the Japanese CVs show up in the DEI. But this time they aren't fooling around Borneo and the southern Philippines. Four TFs surround Java and pound everything in sight into finer and finer rubble.

My carefully husbanded Dutch and British air units are smashed to bits. The couple of coordinated Allied air attacks that take off after one lone Japanese CV are swatted from the sky without causing the smallest wave around the Japanese ships. The ships in repair in Java are sunk in the drydocks, and the entire port system in Soerabaja is wiped out. To add to the carnage, LBA flies in and hits anywhere the carrier planes missed.

Suddenly, the situations in Oz and India look a LOT less secure. Sure, the AI is losing planes to AA and general mishaps, but that isn't stopping it from making certain that there will be nothing in the region to stop it once it sends in the troops.

If the AI can do this to me I don't want to see what a human opponent could do... [X(]

(Never-the-less, it's still fun, in a strange way... [;)] )

Doesnt the AI get unlimited planes and pilots now?

[John Lansford]

Yeah, same thing happened to me.  The AI landed on the northern end of Java and I held them there for a while with counterattacks from Djakarta, but then the KB split up, surrounded Java and proceeded to bomb everything flatter than flat.  Fortunately I had already moved all the useful ships out of Surabaya and was only using it as a sub repair base by then, but it was depressing to watch all those fighter and bomber squadrons vanish like ice on a summer day.

Then the AI landed at Tjilitjap and other coastal sites, and the chase down south to Surabaya began.  Fortunately the AI is being methodical and the KB is still pounding the few bases it hasn't taken yet, but once they're done I'm not sure where they'll be headed next.  At least Soryu and two CVL's aren't with them.  Soryu hit a mine near Manila and is now a reef, and I caught a couple of CVL's raiding near Noumea and had some target practice with them...

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: Boozecamp

Sounds about right.  I've had every Japanese carrier circling Java for at least three weeks, bombing the piss out of everything.  Nuclear powered-KB with self-regenerating bomb and torpedo stores.  I'm not at all against AI advantages, but I also would've liked to have had to actually figure I could fight for Java instead of giving it up for gone in mid January.

I agree, I didn't expect to be wiped out of the DEI so early in the Game. Maybe the AI advantage needs to be toned down just a little...[&:]

[xj900uk]

Hate to burst your bubble,  but Java fell very quickly to the Japs in Feb '42, admittedly one month later than you seem to be experiencing.  The Dutch/Abdacom were confident they could hold it,  but their powerful (on paper) air and sea forces were swept aside like they were made of chop-suey.
What difficulty are you set on?  Historical?

[JohnDillworth]

Surabaya

I have not tried this yet but there has been some discussion about this and I think Java can be defended. The thoery is if you can hold until April, the amphibious bonus expires and the if Java has not fallen yet, you have a good cahnce to hold. From other threads I gther these tactics I will try after the next patch/restart:
Pull all the little units from around the DEI and put them in Java. Supply, Supply, supply so they will rebuild to full strength. Supply from Capetown while you can. use boats, planes, whatever. Get all untis to Java, abaondon the rest of the DEI

Pull the best air units out of Singapore. It is a lost cause. Taht is the firghters and especially the torpedo bombers.

There is a convoy full of troops headed to Singapore at the beginning of the game. Not any more. It is now headed to Java.

Are you emptying Java of Fuel and transport it to Australia. If not please do so. Repeat when necessary. You can afford to lost AK's, but play it safe with TK's and AO's. You already don't have enough. The fuel is like gold, but these ships are more valuable

Any mines left? pick likely landing sites

Leave enough support in Batavia and Surabaya to support Naval and air. Everything else goes to either Loemadjang or Malang. Not both, but I can't decide which one. I think Loenadang because of the big airfield.

Increase supply and build your fort

I haven't worked out what to do with the air forces. I am always temped to go after the carriers but that is usually a one way mission. I think I will preserve them. Any suggestions

Contest the landings with your surface forces. Hope for bad weather.

Accept the fact the the KB will block of the southern access to the islands eventually. Might want to put you subs on manual and take a shot there. The non-american subs don't suffer the same torpedo problems.

If you can do it time consider trying to put one of the Australian divisions that show up in Aden to Java. Don't know if that can be done in time though. And don't put both there. You will need that one elsewhere



That is the beginning of my plan, considerations, additions, deletions?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

The interesting part of playing the AI is not just the odd things that it does, but how it isn't constrained by the sorts of worries that human players have. For example, the AI isn't "concerned" about saving pilots, so it make huge numbers of air attacks. And it uses its CVs in a big way too.

So here I am in early Feb 42 in my Patch 1 game against the Japanese AI and I've been carefully husbanding my forces and setting up Java for the eventual invasions. Singapore has finally fallen, but Manila still holds. And Japanese invasion task forces flood the map, seemingly looking for any base that isn't occupied or being contested.

Then out of the blue, for the second time in this game, all but one of the Japanese CVs show up in the DEI. But this time they aren't fooling around Borneo and the southern Philippines. Four TFs surround Java and pound everything in sight into finer and finer rubble.

My carefully husbanded Dutch and British air units are smashed to bits. The couple of coordinated Allied air attacks that take off after one lone Japanese CV are swatted from the sky without causing the smallest wave around the Japanese ships. The ships in repair in Java are sunk in the drydocks, and the entire port system in Soerabaja is wiped out. To add to the carnage, LBA flies in and hits anywhere the carrier planes missed.

Suddenly, the situations in Oz and India look a LOT less secure. Sure, the AI is losing planes to AA and general mishaps, but that isn't stopping it from making certain that there will be nothing in the region to stop it once it sends in the troops.

If the AI can do this to me I don't want to see what a human opponent could do... [X(]

(Never-the-less, it's still fun, in a strange way... [;)] )

I'm having lots of fun right now against the IJN AI (hard) defending Java. I'm in mid-March 1942 and things are heating up.

Like oldman45, I had an early-war exchange with a smaller KB in the Celebes area, losing Lexington in exchange for Soryu and damage to Zuikaku. Instead of chasing me, though, KB left the area.

I've reinforced Java with a few US P-39 squadrons, a couple of early war British Hurricane II squadrons and, recently, upgraded 'Hurricanized' Dutch squadrons. I've moved the British 18th Division Brigades and some evacuated Singapore Australian Brigade remnants to Java. I've relocated the polyglot Dutch DEI battalions (and a few nice regiments!) to Java. I'm dumping supplies via Tjitilap as fast as I can. The island has >400,000 supplies on it now and climbing. With supply and time, these units can begin filling out again.

I brought Saratoga with a British CV and CVL (Hermes) to help out. They arrived in time to help obliterate a Merak invasion TF. Multiple allied SCTFs in the area have repulsed repeated IJN SCTF forces, with damage to both. My subs are operating out of Soerbaja, regularly attacking IJN shipping in the DEI with solid success.

A recent foray by 4 mini-KB carriers to the Java area was repulsed. Due to weather problems, the mini-KB avoided my Saratoga and company. However, because the IJN elected to unwisely loiter in confined waters, I was able to intercept them with an SCTF force that mauled Shoho and another CVL before they miraculously broke contact in the midst of a thorough spanking.

The IJA did manage to unload a division of infantry and an armored regiment at Merak, overwhelming the base force there. Their landing ships were immediately sunk, thus denying them supply. When these forces unwisely moved on Batavia (1 hex away), I swept behind them with a couple of the small Dutch armored units and retook (undefended) Merak. The now surrounded IJA division and ARM regiment were pounded into dust by the Dutch A/F and counterattacked out of existence by the land units in Batavia.

I'm moving some B-26s and B-17s into an expanded Soerbaja and Batavia AF now with the intent of destroying as much oil production at Balikpapan and Palembang as possible in the next couple months.

Going into April, Java is in really good shape. Timor (particularly Koepang) is also taking shape nicely, and I have had a chance to reinforce the NE coast of Australia and Port Moresby. That's the good news.

The bad news? Singapore fell about a week ago, so did Manila, Rangoon and Palembang. Once recuperated, a portion of these IJA forces will, no doubt, be arrayed against Java per se. Those Sallies and Oscars that have contentedly been dropping bombs on Manila will likely be forward deployed against Java and Timor.

For those of you that are still holding Java: what would you consider a success? Historical timeframe? Hold until June or July 1942? Hold indefinitely?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Surabaya

I have not tried this yet but there has been some discussion about this and I think Java can be defended. The thoery is if you can hold until April, the amphibious bonus expires and the if Java has not fallen yet, you have a good cahnce to hold. From other threads I gther these tactics I will try after the next patch/restart:
Pull all the little units from around the DEI and put them in Java. Supply, Supply, supply so they will rebuild to full strength. Supply from Capetown while you can. use boats, planes, whatever. Get all untis to Java, abaondon the rest of the DEI

Pull the best air units out of Singapore. It is a lost cause. Taht is the firghters and especially the torpedo bombers.

There is a convoy full of troops headed to Singapore at the beginning of the game. Not any more. It is now headed to Java.

Are you emptying Java of Fuel and transport it to Australia. If not please do so. Repeat when necessary. You can afford to lost AK's, but play it safe with TK's and AO's. You already don't have enough. The fuel is like gold, but these ships are more valuable

Any mines left? pick likely landing sites

Leave enough support in Batavia and Surabaya to support Naval and air. Everything else goes to either Loemadjang or Malang. Not both, but I can't decide which one. I think Loenadang because of the big airfield.

Increase supply and build your fort

I haven't worked out what to do with the air forces. I am always temped to go after the carriers but that is usually a one way mission. I think I will preserve them. Any suggestions

Contest the landings with your surface forces. Hope for bad weather.

Accept the fact the the KB will block of the southern access to the islands eventually. Might want to put you subs on manual and take a shot there. The non-american subs don't suffer the same torpedo problems.

If you can do it time consider trying to put one of the Australian divisions that show up in Aden to Java. Don't know if that can be done in time though. And don't put both there. You will need that one elsewhere



That is the beginning of my plan, considerations, additions, deletions?

^

hopefully you talk about playing vs the AI. In PBEM every experienced Japanese player will take Java in 42, no matter what you do. The more you bring to Java, the more will be lost. There are so many bases on Java where you could land, you can´t keep the Japanese from taking one and as soon as they´ve got one, they can bring as many units as they wish and in 42, they simply have far more units than the Allied. Not to talk about their airforce. The Allied just can´t compete.

Of course there were (and will be) also PBEMs where an Allied player will hold Java, but there were also PBEMs I know of when the Japanese took out the US West coast. It´s very unusual but if a very experienced Japanese player meets an unexperienced Allied player then this works. Of course also vice versa, but usually (I would tend to say 19 out of 20 times) it won´t and the same goes for a PBEM defense of Java. I guess in 19 out of 20 times I would knock the Allied out on Java.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
hopefully you talk about playing vs the AI. In PBEM every experienced Japanese player will take Java in 42, no matter what you do. The more you bring to Java, the more will be lost. There are so many bases on Java where you could land, you can´t keep the Japanese from taking one and as soon as they´ve got one, they can bring as many units as they wish and in 42, they simply have far more units than the Allied. Not to talk about their airforce. The Allied just can´t compete.

Of course there were (and will be) also PBEMs where an Allied player will hold Java, but there were also PBEMs I know of when the Japanese took out the US West coast. It´s very unusual but if a very experienced Japanese player meets an unexperienced Allied player then this works. Of course also vice versa, but usually (I would tend to say 19 out of 20 times) it won´t and the same goes for a PBEM defense of Java. I guess in 19 out of 20 times I would knock the Allied out on Java.

Yes, Castor Troy, I would expect it to be aberrant that the Allies still hold Java into 1943.

If I can use Java to deny oil resources from Java per se as well as for a base with which to smash Balikpapan and (more importantly) Palembang oil supplies and stores for much of 1942, then it will have served its purpose.

I think there's a real benefit for the allies holding Java as long as they reasonably can. If they held it into December 1942, I would consider that a major blow against Japanese hopes for early expansion.

Yup, if the IJA wants to land 20 prepped divisions with KB major and minor and LBA support and every support ship in the IJN constellation, they can take Java against all resistance. I would LOVE to be an Allied player in a position to force such an extreme IJ measure and, by extension, detract from all other possible routes of IJ advance.

[Q-Ball]

My only comment is that as Japan, you better get to Java pretty quick. Dutch troops at start are very weak; once the 100-day mark passes and they start to train, they will get much tougher. Nevertheless, it won't last through the Japanese conquest. Any reinforcements sent there will be lost.

PS, don't dock valuable ships in any port that you don't have air search at least 20 hexes out from. KB can very easily raid Colombo, Syndey, Brisbane, Noumea, to name but a few. Don't let them.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
That is the beginning of my plan, considerations, additions, deletions?

Sounds good to me, John.

Although Palembang is a certain goner, I'd rather have it put up a good fight. I was able to move nearly all of the Northern Sumatra Dutch garrison troops and, most importantly, engineers to Palembang before the inevitable IJN invasion fleet. After they were booted out (I'm air evacuating survivors to Java now), Palembang was moderately damaged in the defense (oil: 758(143); Refinery 859(162)). I'll supplement this damage with B-17s and 26s brought in for the occasion from Australia. That should take a Loooong time for the IJ to make functional again, plus >300,000 supply, if recollection suits.

With Palembang falling, it makes IJ LBA coverage of Northern Java more problematic for the allies. Denying this for as long as possible helps in the defense of Java per se.

Again: deny, deny, deny. Destroy, destroy, destroy. Delay, delay, delay.

It's like those 'accursed' engineers that thwarted Pieper's Schwerpunct in the early days of the Ardennes offensive. Oh, sure, Pieper (eventually) achieved his goals. Minus fuel, behind schedule and against mounting defenses elsewhere, the thrust became a liability rather than an asset.

[Rainer79]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

My only comment is that as Japan, you better get to Java pretty quick. Dutch troops at start are very weak; once the 100-day mark passes and they start to train, they will get much tougher. Nevertheless, it won't last through the Japanese conquest. Any reinforcements sent there will be lost.

Actually it will be less than 100 days. The major dutch combat formations typically have some planning points accumulated (at least in scen 2).

[Swayin]

It seems to me any ability make Japan pay for Java - and thusly have to take longer and spend more - is a good thing. More time to array forces on your Chittagong/Ledo line. More time to get supplies to Darwin. More time to base subs out of Soerbaja. Committing *everything* to taking a fortified and upgraded Java is a huge drain in terms of time and materiel that Japan can ill afford, IMO.

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Hate to burst your bubble,  but Java fell very quickly to the Japs in Feb '42, admittedly one month later than you seem to be experiencing.  The Dutch/Abdacom were confident they could hold it,  but their powerful (on paper) air and sea forces were swept aside like they were made of chop-suey.
What difficulty are you set on?  Historical?

Ah, good point. I guess that I got too used to holding Java into Spring 42 in WitP.

[AHFlattop]

I too am seeing similar results in my game against the AI. Singapore fell on Feb 24th and within days, Java was invaded at Merak and some other minor ports. The Phillipines fell in late March. I used March to strengthen Port Moresby using my carriers then prepped to reinforce Java. KB showed up with all CVLs and CVEs off Java in early March and has been circling Java since mid May. All my airforce has been destroyed including B-26s, B-17, P-40s that I'd sent from Australia. Now as I'm reinforcing Java with Aussie troops, supplies with the 5 American cairriers plus 2 Brit CV and 1 Brit CVL. The info screen says I've destroyed over 900 Bettys and 600 Zeros, 150 Vals and 100 Kates, totalling about 3000 frames in all. FOW may be exaggerating these number a bit. Its May 20th and I only hold southern Java and might not get there in time.

Right before I arrived, KB seem to teleport off Port Moresby to support an invasion then moved to raid Brisbane and Sydney. I managed to sink the Junyo with what assets I could find. It seems the Ai gets almost unlimited planes as reinforcements. According to the info screen, I've sunk over 200 ships but I think its about double than number. The AI appears to have no shortage of plane reinforcements and no shortage of transports. I've caught and sunk about a 100 ships in transport TFs loaded with troops and destroyed maybe 40-50,000 troops on those transports but the AI is still managing to capture distant allied based behind the Noumea-Christmas island line.

[jazman]

It sounds like the Death Star in AE is the AI.