Alternative ship type proposal

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Possible alternative to replace the Transport fleet,please note that all of these ship types are combat capable.

8.1 Ship Types
Three types of ships are available: Heavy, Medium and Light.

8.1.1 Heavy Ships

These represent 3 DECKER 1st & 2nd rate ships of the line, the big ships with big guns. If a side of a naval combat has 1.5 times more heavy ships than the other.

It receives a +2 to the random number chosen, between 1 and 6 on the Naval combat table.

Each heavy ship is capable of carrying 1 cavalry factor or 2 factor of any other type permitted to be transported by sea, following the rules of naval transport.

Heavy ships cost $9 and 1 manpower, taking 12 months to build to commission.

8.1.2 Medium Ships

These represent 2 DECKER 3rd & 4th rate ships of the line,they are the maid of all work,able to perform any task asked of them,whether it be fighting in Naval battles even against Heavy ships or on blockade duty of enemy ports.

It receives a +1 to the random number chosen, between 1 and 6 on the Naval combat table.

Each medium ship is capable of carrying 1/2 cavalry factor or 1 factor of any other type permitted to be transported by sea, following the rules of naval transport.

Medium ships cost $6 and 1 manpower, taking 9 months to build to commission.

8.1.3 Light ships

These represent 5th & 6th rate Frigates + Sloops etc, which would perform anti-piracy operations, act as scouts for the heavy & medium ships and occasionally participate in major battles.

If a side consists solely of light ships, it receives a -2 to the random number chosen, between 1 and 6, on the Naval combat table.

Each light ship is capable of carrying only 1/2 infantry factor that is permitted to be transported by sea,following the rules of naval transport.

Piracy and anti-piracy has been simplified to be standard light ships only and can be added to either the piracy mission, at which point the major nation can target the Major Power of choice (to inflict losses on trade),or by adding them to anti-piracy operations and defending their own commerce from piracy.

Light ships cost $4 and 1 manpower, taking 6 months to build.

[Mardonius]

Hello HFJ:

These are great concepts... Thought about galleys or North African pirates?

I have been pinging Marshall for almost two years now on the naval aspects of this game, as they could benefit from some redressal. He commented most recently (within the last two or three weeks) that he would come looking for me when he was ready to take on the naval options revisions. If possible, i'd like your help workign out these should we have the opportunity.

best
Mardonius

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi Mardonius,
I have never been happy with the Transport fleet concept,and feel that something along the above lines is a feasable alternative.As stated earlier I would be more than happy to assist in updating and upgrading the Naval aspect of the game,count me in always.[;)]

galleys or North African pirates? Light fleets could represent these?

I posted this on Mantis to try and get a positive reaction hopefully,as most gamers were unhappy with the Transport fleets ?

[Ashtar]

Hellfire, your rules will never work. Same critics as ever:

Your ships are too similar combat-wise: Why I should buy 40 medium ships if I can just get 39 light ships and a single medium to avoid the -1?
And why on earth GB should buy more heavy ones if it has already an automatic +1 bonus to combat, and your max total bonus is +1?

etc...

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Above scenario only Heavy and Medium ships are able to carry Calvary factors,plus you would need to build 2 Medium or 4 Light ships to have the same factor capacity of a heavy.

Combat wise it would not be hard to give Heavy & Medium +1 combat bonus while lights would be -2 for combat.

[Ashtar]

What I am trying to explain to you is that the different troop carrying capacity is not enough to justify
for such a large difference in money/build time.
What you propose is to have three different kind of ships, largely different in transport, cost and build time but essentially equal in combat capabilities,
and this will never work.

Think of France wanting to force the channel to invade UK via Lille arrow. It just needs to build lights. France can save up a little money (200$) and
then buy 50 lights at once, to arrive in 6 months. This will force UK too to buy lights (you need a lot of ships to defend yourself, and you need them asap),
so sooner we will have forces mainly composed by lights.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

As I stated above earlier only Heavy and Medium ships can carry Calvary factors so unless Napoleon wants to be without these units,then lights are of little use to him.

What I'm trying to point out is that in reality, there was 3 very different ship types during the Napoleonic wars.

The Heavy 1st & 2nd rate 3 Decker armed with between ( 130 - 90 ) guns.

The Medium 3rd & 4th rate 2 Decker armed with between ( 80 - 50 ) guns.

The Light 5th & 6th rate Frigates etc armed with between ( 40 - 8 ) guns.

The ships are not to blame but the abstract rules are [;)]

[Mardonius]

The concepts are great, in my opinion. Certainly there are aspects that will have to be worked out. I would not sweat these kinds of things too much just now (though Ashtar's comments are certainly welcome) as I reckon we have a year or two to hash out the details -- during which much woudl change -- before we go to a beta version. Any thoughts Marshall?

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

I'm all for debate of any kind Mardonius,and yes we have plenty of time to tweak aspects of the naval side of the game,I just feel that my suggestion is much better than what is currently available.

[Mardonius]

True.

[Marshall Ellis]

I can look at this type of stuff (And I'm open to it) but again my que is full for a bit so this will lay for a while!

[Mardonius]

I, for one, am glad to make all the concepts smooth as glass for your programming ease.... [;)]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi Marshall,
Any chance of applying any of the above via the editor Pleaseeeeeeeeee[;)]

[Skanvak]

I need to study on napoleonic naval warfare to make a comprehensive answer.

But I do share that the difference in ship is not really useful if they are not really different. Before making a new rule, we should look at how the various ship differ. Then I would advice adding more deepness in the stat, like giving 2 hits points to the heavier ships or a bonus to intercep with light ship.

Up to now I just don't see the need for different ship (even the actual heavy/light is just a limitation on the fleet and a need for pirate otherwise I just build heavy). As for your cav only, beside I don't see why, I will use my transport fleet for cav if heavy are not interesting.

I wonder too if fleet should be able to hold any type of ship? why make heavy and light fleet, they all move the same speed. Is there a rtional here beyond compellng player to build light ship?

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi Skanvak,
Welcome to the debate,my idea is to replace the Transport fleet completely,I like the idea via the editor to built Fleets with a mix of ship types,what I propose is the 3 types to use should be Heavy,Medium and Light, and not as is now Heavy,Light and Transports.

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Since the Naval combat is so poor in game terms, with only 1 die roll and 1 combat round, we are very much restricted to what can be altered untill a chit pick system is hopefully introduced further down the line, in the future similar to the land combat.[:(]

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

By the way while I'm here, In 1805 Napoleon planned an invasion of England,and massed 180,000 troops at Boulogne.So how come in game terms France only has 135 Infantry factors at setup game scale at 2,000 men per factor,big short fall that only leaves 90,000 to protect the whole of France?

Also there were a great many more ships available to each nation than is represented by the game setups how come ?

[pzgndr]

Any chance of applying any of the above via the editor

Yes. Creating the new ship counters, setting attributes, and revising the orders of battle will be possible with the editor. Should be doable as a custom campaign but not something to impose on everyone. But combat will still be tricky, even if/when Marshall implements optional proportional naval losses by type and revises PP losses. It's one thing to have heavies and lights for 1pp and 1/2pp respectively, but where would mediums and others fit in??

[Skanvak]

Before making a new rule we need to know if it is needed. For that we need to look at what was the historical situation. You said there are 3 differents class of ships. Does they operate and make a real difference in the end? You want to get read of transport fleet, is that to say that there was no transport ship at the time? I don't think so. Why do you want only heavier to carry cav? Do you have any historical evidence to back your decision?

I don't want a new rule just to say that we add more thinks if basically that just the same thing. Adding shipbuilding location add to realism. Adding different ship may or may not. If for example 10 med vs 10 heavy had historicla result equal to 10 heavy vs 10 heavy or 10 med vs 10 med, then making a difference is pointless.

If you want to convince me, I want to see historical evidence to back the change (ok you did describe the difference in guns and decks, which I agree but that does not translate in actual performance).

[kirk23_MatrixForum]

Hi Skanvak,
Talking about different ship types being pointless,well everything about the Naval combat rules is pointless then, for they are based on fiction.During the battle of Trafalgar only 1 Heavy,Medium in game terms was sunk!!!!!!!!

Wooden ships are extremely hard to sink,during the Napoleonic wars Ships of the line during battle were CAPTURED not sunk,the constant cannon broadsides from ships over a period of many hours,reduced the crews fighting ability and moral,so that when they eventually were boarded by the enemy,after fighting on deck they struck there colours and surrendered the ship.As for the difference in ship types, 1st & 2nd rates were the largest ships,with very thick HULLS FOR PROTECTION making them extremely hard to sink, you can still visit HMS Victory today,over 200 years since the Napoleonic era, at the Naval dockyard in Portsmouth UK.

Or to put it another way.

1st & 2nd Rate Heavy ship type = KILLER WHALE ( ORCA ) = Extremely Deadly.

3rd & 4th Rate Medium ship type = GREAT WHITE SHARK.= Very Scary.

5th & 6th Rate Light ship type = MAKO SHARK.= Keep out of the water.

Transport ship type = FISH & CHIPS.= Too late yer dead.[:D][:D]