FW-190F

[Nemo121]

How are people finding the FW-190F?

I was looking at my kill numbers for the various squadrons and found that my FW-190F squadrons have the best kill ratio of any of my units. Basically they've matched the Me-410 units ( which are next best ) and have done so while taking a fraction of the losses of the Me-410 units.

This is obviously surprising to me given their poorer firepower but I am guessing that the extra armour means that far,far fewer of them are being damaged and then crashing ( accounting for the smaller number of losses). To be fair they've been going up against some medium bombers also instead of the B-17s but even still I'm quite impressed by them.

I was planning to just cut their production and change it all over to Me-410s but now am considering investing in building a few more of the Fw-190Fs instead as I can get twice as many planes for my engine investment.


But I thought I'd ask for advice here first. Are others finding the FW-190F surprisingly good also?

[von Shagmeister]

The the FW 190F can be used to good effect under the sort of circumstances you mention. Some Schlachtflieger built up very impressive scores on this type in real life (albeit mainly against VVS tactical aircraft). However keep them away from Allied fighters as their relatively sluggish performance means they will normally come out second best. IIRC correctly another factor to consider is most of the Schlachtgruppen included in the OoB have had the experience of their pilots adjusted down to reflect the fact they are not really experienced in the air to air combat role, apart from some of the real life pilots included who were known to be accomplished fighter pilots and well as ground attack pilots.
 
von Shagmeister

[Nemo121]

von Shag, interesting... I hadn't realised that about the experience being adjusted downward...

I had a quick look at the numbers and am posting them here since some may find them interesting/useful
First is type of plane, second is number of kills, third is number of losses of that type. All figures are at the end of the 3rd day of a grand campaign.

FW-190F: 55 / 5
JU-88C6a: 0 / 0
Ro-57bis:  0 / 0
Bf-110G2: 70 / 8
Bf-110G4: 101 / 58 ( two gruppen were caught landing by enemy fighter sweeps and I lost 30 planes in their landing patterns )
Me-410A1: 3 / 0
Do-217:     6 / 1
Ju-88C-6:  22 / 5


Bf-109G5: 25 / 19
Bf-109G6: 90 / 127  ( The 109G6s are being UTTERLY slaughtered by the bomber boxes. My worst firing pass ever saw 7 Bf-109G6s shot down in a single pass on a B-17 box. There's something very wrong there.)
FW-190A5: 79 / 27
FW190A6/R1: 40 / 20

G-55:         5 / 0
Mc.200:      0 / 0
Mc.202:      12 / 11
Mc.205:      28 / 9
D520:         10 / 17
Re.2001:     8 / 4
Re.2002:     0 / 0
Re.2005:     5 / 3

Unsurprisingly the Italian and Allied airforces aren't doing too brilliantly although the G55, Re2005 and Mc205 are having a pretty good showing so far.

The FW190Fs have an 11:1 exchange rate which gives themt he best exchange rate of any of my planes. Bf-110G2 is doing well also and the G4 would be doing well if it weren't for the two Gruppen which got slaughtered landing.

The real worry to me here is the Bf-109G6... It is one of the few plane types which has suffered more losses than kills. The others are utterly obsolete planes like the D520.

When engaging bomber streams I tend to send in FW-190A6s first, then the Bf-110G2s and then all the night fighters. FW-190A5s and Bf-109G6s are sent in last as I consider them relatively fragile and under-armed. In fighter vs fighter combat the Bf-109 appears to be getting 1:1 exchange rates. However when attacking the bombers the 109G6 suffers disproportionate losses.

I've got to say that I question the validity of the combat model when dealing with relatively fragile planes like the 109G6. I think too many of them are being downed by bomber boxes ( and bear in mind I'm sending them in only after all of the rockets, zerstorer units and FW-190s have already attacked and disrupted the enemy bomber formations. I shudder to think how bad it would be if the 109s were sent in against undisrupted bomber boxes.


To give an idea of the force mix I've been facing up against in taking these losses ( since it plays into how many 109s were lost ) I'll list the major losses for the Allies so far ( after 3 days of combat ):
Mosquito FB VI: 11
Baltimore V: 58
Boston IIIA: 53
Mitchell II: 29
B-26B: 13
B-17F: 311
SpitfireLF: 75
Spitfire HF: 14
Mustang I: 30
Typhoon: 18

Basically almost half of the 644 Allied planes lost are B-17s while almost 40% of German losses are Bf-109G-6s alone.

[von Shagmeister]

Reference your Bf 109G-6 losses I was going to say it is probably because the bomber formations are still cohesive but I then read your last point. Are most of the Bf 109G-6 losses due to bomber return fire and what doctrine have you got set? Like you I personally don't like using them as I find they are too fragile against massed ranks of bombers and they always seem to suffer especially on direct attack. Whether there is something wrong with the combat model or you are having a particularly bad run of bad luck I don't know. I tend to think that the combat model is quite good though I believe in general the very bloody losses are due to the high numbers of a/c involved in combat when compared to real life. I would suggest reviewing the situation after 10 turns to see if any extreme results are averaged out.

At least now there is a much better chance of getting your pilots back than in the old game. I don't mind losing a/c but pilots is another matter.

With regards to your Bf 110G-4 losses, it can be very frustrating when your a/c get shot down like clockwork when they come in to land. This is a vestage of the old game engine. In real life they would divert to satellites and nearby A/Fs and we have discussed it many times in the past and hopefully in the future this will be addressed along with damaged a/c trying to fly back to their home base when in real life would land at the nearest A/F.

von Shagmeister

EDIT: Remove Typos

[Nemo121]

vonShag,
 
Aye, I was posting the above with the intention of coming back to it once I play a few more turns - fiddling with production right now and work so it'll be a little while before I get 10 turns in... Still, since I don't intend to change tactics ( 109G6s go for the stragglers and/or hit the main boxes only after absolutely everything else, including the 190-A5s, have made their attacks ) the comparison should be valid. Results like this are making me think about scrapping 109 production and just producing 190s etc. It seems like the 109 is a one way ticket to a grave.
 
 
As re: the 110G4s etc. Yes, I've noticed that issue and am happy enough to just wait for a patch on that as I know it has been identified as an issue. My concern with the 109 issue ( which, as I say, is an issue which I think is linked to low firepower, low durability planes ) is that in contrast to the "not diverting to alternates when sweeps etc are over one's own airfield" issue I don't think the 109 issue has been proven yet and thus may not be tackled.
 
Still, that's what running more turns and then comparing results to average out outliers is for.

[Nicholas Bell]

Just a note, historically the Schlachtgeschwader were never used in intercept operations, nor were the F and G Fw190s used to that purpose in the West or Med.  Grigsby has included them in all his games back to USAAF, Western Front, Second Front and others.  One can only assume he has done that for game balance purposes, one cannot imagine he was/is unaware of their actual deployment.  The mid '44 Sturmgruppen were equipment with modified A-8s, not F or Gs either.  There are a lot historical inaccuracies in the Luftwaffe OOB, but they do make the GAME more interesting and balanced.  But a depiction of historical reality it is not - reality would be pretty hopeless for the Axis player.

[wernerpruckner]

In Italy the SGs flew escorts for themselves....several SG pilots scored kills in Italy.
Later in the war SGs flew some sorties against USAAF missions (8th and 15th) in the Eastern part of Germany (todays Poland)

[Nemo121]

Galland and Speer both talk about committing FW-190Fs to attack bombers attacking Germany proper ( in early 1944 ) and both mention the benefits of extra armour but the decrease in manoeuvrability which made them resistant to bomber fire but dead meat when escorts got to them. - I believe that these details make it clear that they weren't just misidentifying Fw-190A8s...

[Golden Bear]

[:)]

[joliverlay]

I played about 13 turns as axis against AI before I changed to allied to learn for a PBM to test production. Losses looked ok to me except perhaps to high on both sides.

I set 109G6s to bounce fighter
I set 109G6-R6 to bounce bomber

I only send 109G6s after escorts.
After the escorts are out of fuel I hit with 110, 410, and then the R6 mods of the 109 and 190.

My losses for the 109G6s are better than 1:1. The cannon equiped aircraft do very well on bounce bomber.

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

If you are speaking of NJs here I have observed that landing intercepts are very different than in the former game model. Instead of shooting down a flock of planes trying to land I usually only get one if any at all. Also, I notice that the NJs will avoid landing until, I am guessing, their fuel is out. Usually they seem to be able to out wait the NFs over the base. As much as I liked to be able to shoot down an entire unit of NJs during landing, I find that the new results appeal greatly to my sense rightness. I agree that they should divert, but the relatively low level of NF intercepts seems generally to work out to be "about right" to me.

About the Fs... I have observed that they are extremely effective in taking down stragglers and bombers from formations during the return leg of the mission. If the get bounced they come out very badly but that should be expected. The Bf109G-6s get hammered everywhere they attack. Cohesive bomber units frequently shoot them down without taking any damage.


Carl

I've seen something closer to the old game but it seems to be on a reduced scale. What I have noticed happening more often is Serrate patrols intercepting NFs outside the landing patterns. [&o]

[von Shagmeister]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

If you are speaking of NJs here I have observed that landing intercepts are very different than in the former game model. Instead of shooting down a flock of planes trying to land I usually only get one if any at all. Also, I notice that the NJs will avoid landing until, I am guessing, their fuel is out. Usually they seem to be able to out wait the NFs over the base. As much as I liked to be able to shoot down an entire unit of NJs during landing, I find that the new results appeal greatly to my sense rightness. I agree that they should divert, but the relatively low level of NF intercepts seems generally to work out to be "about right" to me.

About the Fs... I have observed that they are extremely effective in taking down stragglers and bombers from formations during the return leg of the mission. If the get bounced they come out very badly but that should be expected. The Bf109G-6s get hammered everywhere they attack. Cohesive bomber units frequently shoot them down without taking any damage.


Carl

I've seen something closer to the old game but it seems to be on a reduced scale. What I have noticed happening more often is Serrate patrols intercepting NFs outside the landing patterns. [&o]

During beta testing I've experienced NJ getting badly shot up during landing like in the old game. I haven't actually played the final release so maybe Harley modified something but I didn't think it was on the immediate horizon.

Allied nightfighters actually engage Axis nightfighters in the bomber stream now (and vice versa) which is a great improvement on the old game and is much more realistic.

von Shagmeister

[Dobey455]

In regards to Allied NI bouncing landing German Night Fighters:

IRL the Germans used a tactic where by certain twin - engine squadrons would be scrambled en-masse to radio beacons along the suspected Ingress or Egress routes of the allied bomber stream, from there they could would wait to be vectored, in smaller groups, to the stream(I believe this was the Zahme Sau tactic).
In addition to "gaol hanging" or ambushing landing night-fighters the allies also used to patrol these radio beacons and ambush night fighters that were circling waiting to be vectored to the bomber stream. This isn't moddelled in the game, but the slightly high losses to landing units could be considered to represent both types of losses.

[Wayn Reinbold]

There is a mechanism in the pre 1.06 BTR game to simulate a scatter command, This is via the <change aircraft type> button in the Campaign summary -> unit details display. In the 1.06 version of the game time this button was removed from this display during the german "reaction" phase. I was very pleased to see that in this current game this button is available again. I have yet to check that it behaves as per the old game ie I don't want all the pilots disappearing off the units roster (ie dead).
It when like this:
As the German commander I would simulate a scatter command to a particular unit under threat, (say, due to returning A/C running across the path of an incoming raid or fighter sweep), by changing the units A/C type while they where still in the air or on the ground. Like say type Fw190A -> anything in the replacement pool -> Fw190A (second change optional). You could do this at any moment in the germans reaction phase, the up side was the pilots survived, the down side was the unit was out of action for 2 - 3 days while it was restocked with aircraft. I'm reluctant to post this information because this may be perceived as a bug, but I don't see it that way, because I have the feeling that most of the german pilots were killed in the hurley-burly of air combat, not siting in their plane while their airfield was being bombed.

ORIGINAL: von Shagmeister

Reference your Bf 109G-6 losses I was going to say it is probably because the bomber formations are still cohesive but I then read your last point. Are most of the Bf 109G-6 losses due to bomber return fire and what doctrine have you got set? Like you I personally don't like using them as I find they are too fragile against massed ranks of bombers and they always seem to suffer especially on direct attack. Whether there is something wrong with the combat model or you are having a particularly bad run of bad luck I don't know. I tend to think that the combat model is quite good though I believe in general the very bloody losses are due to the high numbers of a/c involved in combat when compared to real life. I would suggest reviewing the situation after 10 turns to see if any extreme results are averaged out.

At least now there is a much better chance of getting your pilots back than in the old game. I don't mind losing a/c but pilots is another matter.

With regards to your Bf 110G-4 losses, it can be very frustrating when your a/c get shot down like clockwork when they come in to land. This is a vestage of the old game engine. In real life they would divert to satellites and nearby A/Fs and we have discussed it many times in the past and hopefully in the future this will be addressed along with damaged a/c trying to fly back to their home base when in real life would land at the nearest A/F.

von Shagmeister

EDIT: Remove Typos