Pre Combat Air Strikes

[Panama]

I wasn't sure where to put this since it doesn't really apply to any of the forum headers. So here's the setting:

Player A and B both have equal air units and the same percentage of them on interdiction.

Player A has six rounds of combat during his turn. Before each round there's a random number of air strikes against his units, say an average of five. So there's thirty air strikes against his units during his turn.

Player B has two rounds of combat during his turn. Before each round there's a random number of air strkes against his units, and it also averages five. A total of ten.

Now, will someone explain to me, with all things being equal, why player A suffers thirty air strikes while player B has to tolerate only ten? The time passed is the same so it's not a matter of time. The air strkes are not against attacking units but instead are up and down the line. I fail to see any logic applied to this. It seems arbitrary to the extreme.

If player B's air units have the time to make thirty air strikes player A's air unit would also have the time. I would really like someone to tell me why these air strikes are even in the game if they are simply tied to how many combat rounds you have. Makes no sense. [8|]

[Curtis Lemay]

I'm not sure that's how it works. I think, that, at the end of the turn, enemy air units that haven't yet interdicted moving units get to attack stationary targets.

[Panama]

That is exactly how it works in FiTE. Can't imagine it's scenario specific.

Before each combat round is initiated by a player (after clicking the start combats button) enemy air units make attacks up and down the line. Sometimes mabye three. Most I counted was fifteen. Even if you only make artillery attacks it's the same thing. If you initiate one combat round there's one round of air strikes. If you initiate five combats there are five rounds of air strikes.

I have no idea what logic was used to justify this 'feature' but IMO it's flawed. All things being equal, how can one side have many more airstrikes than the other just because more combat rounds are initiated? I would imagine it would also expose the side making the airstrikes to more air losses too. So why not inititate as many rounds as possible by using one artillery unit for as many rounds as possible to attempt to cause the other side more air attrition especially if you are the Soviet agaisnt the German if FiTE as I am? I love seeing all those air strikes. Even if I lose twice to three times as many air units I'm winning the air war. [8D]

The next iteration of TOAW needs to address this for a number of reasons.

cheers [;)]

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Panama
So why not inititate as many rounds as possible by using one artillery unit for as many rounds as possible to attempt to cause the other side more air attrition especially if you are the Soviet agaisnt the German if FiTE as I am?

Hey ! That's a great idea. Wish I had thought of that. Kudos Panama dude.

[L`zard]

ORIGINAL: Panama

That is exactly how it works in FiTE. Can't imagine it's scenario specific.

Before each combat round is initiated by a player (after clicking the start combats button) enemy air units make attacks up and down the line. Sometimes mabye three. Most I counted was fifteen. Even if you only make artillery attacks it's the same thing. If you initiate one combat round there's one round of air strikes. If you initiate five combats there are five rounds of air strikes.

The next iteration of TOAW needs to address this for a number of reasons.

Actually, Panama, it really IS a matter of scenario specifics....No Lie!

Have you checked this sort of stuff w/ any other 'game'.....???

[Silvanski]

Units with Air Superiority Missions may fight at the beginning of each Turn when the game sparks a number of Air Superiority battles at random
locations on the map.

There's an explanation...

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: L`zard

ORIGINAL: Panama

That is exactly how it works in FiTE. Can't imagine it's scenario specific.

Before each combat round is initiated by a player (after clicking the start combats button) enemy air units make attacks up and down the line. Sometimes mabye three. Most I counted was fifteen. Even if you only make artillery attacks it's the same thing. If you initiate one combat round there's one round of air strikes. If you initiate five combats there are five rounds of air strikes.

The next iteration of TOAW needs to address this for a number of reasons.

.

Actually, Panama, it really IS a matter of scenario specifics....No Lie!

Have you checked this sort of stuff w/ any other 'game'.....???

Thanks for that. How can you turn it off. I've looked and looked to no avail. This is very exploitable.

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

Units with Air Superiority Missions may fight at the beginning of each Turn when the game sparks a number of Air Superiority battles at random
locations on the map.

There's an explanation...

Not a funciton of air superiority. And that happens only once at the beginning of the Turn, not at the beginning of each individual combat Round which can be many times per turn.

Where do I find the 'on'/'off' switch?

[Panama]

Come to think of it I'm playing a pbem game of one of the North Africa scenarios and get the air strikes. So I tested some other scenarios and it happens there too. So evidently if you have air units on interdiction there's a chance they'll make air strikes during your opponents turn whether you want them to or not. [:D]

[sPzAbt653]

ORIGINAL: Panama

Come to think of it I'm playing a pbem game of one of the North Africa scenarios and get the air strikes. So I tested some other scenarios and it happens there too. So evidently if you have air units on interdiction there's a chance they'll make air strikes during your opponents turn whether you want them to or not. [:D]

That is correct, there was another thread about this. The Normandy 44 scenario was being looked at, because the Allies get a large number of these attacks. If you play as the Germans, at the end of each combat round, the Allied air units assigned to Interdiction will attack German ground units, whether or not the German units have moved. Some rounds over 30 attacks take place. This occurs when the Allies have a total of 11 air units assigned to Interdiction, air units assigned to Combat Support do not participate.

There is no On/Off switch.

[Curtis Lemay]

I still don't think you've accurately described how it actually happens. Let me clarify. I mean that the number of strikes per round will not be constant. It won't be 5 strikes per round, every round. Due to interdicting units dropping out, the earlier rounds will have more strikes and it will tail off as the round count goes up. Furthermore, at the end of the turn (assuming it ends normally) there will be further equalization. The side that had less strikes up to that point will have more strength left for a larger number of final strikes. In the end, the strike count (all else being equal) will not be that different.

Regardless, we would need rigorous evidence, not anecdotal, to know if there really was a problem.

[Panama]

You don't have to look far to discover that one side will get more airstrikes than another side. It's based some well known facts that are learned early in playing TOAW. No research needed, it's in the manual.

If side A has a higher proficiency rating than side B, side A will have a greater ability to have more combat rounds. The greater the disparity between side A's proficiency and side B's proficiency the greater the disparity between side A's number of combat rounds and side B's combat rounds.

The more combat rounds side A has the more airstrikes side A has. In fact, even if both sides have even proficiency if one side has fewer combat rounds for whatever reason there are fewer airstrikes no matter how much time the turn represents and irrespective of whether both sides have equal interdiction.

Perhaps you're saying, 'maybe one side doesn't want all these airstrikes so they limit combat rounds'. Well, perhaps neither side wants the airstrikes but in order to perform combat rounds and enable interdiction of the other sides supply and units the airstrikes have to be suffered.

My only question is why? Why does no one have any control over airstrikes?

General: "Commander, we want you to ground your aircraft this week so you can refit"

Commander: "Sorry General, not possible. The enemy has made some attacks so we have to make airstrkes against them because."

General: "Because why?"

Commander: "DUH! Because the rules say."

Commander: "Sir"

In FiTE the German needs to take care of his air assets yet he also has to interdict the movement of Soviet units and Soviet supply. So he is saddled with airstrikes that further sap his air units. Not a good trade off for the Soviet squads eliminated nor supply reduced.

This is just an opinion but except for the French campaign the Axis player is at a disadvantage in air power and so the airstrikes are a distinct disafvantage for the Axis player.

Just my opinion fwiw.

Cheers [;)]

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Panama

You don't have to look far to discover that one side will get more airstrikes than another side. It's based some well known facts that are learned early in playing TOAW. No research needed, it's in the manual.

It certainly is not. It will have to be rigorously tested. And that's going to be non-trivial.

If side A has a higher proficiency rating than side B, side A will have a greater ability to have more combat rounds. The greater the disparity between side A's proficiency and side B's proficiency the greater the disparity between side A's number of combat rounds and side B's combat rounds.

Fair enough.

The more combat rounds side A has the more airstrikes side A has. In fact, even if both sides have even proficiency if one side has fewer combat rounds for whatever reason there are fewer airstrikes no matter how much time the turn represents and irrespective of whether both sides have equal interdiction.

This, however, is not. At the start of the turn, the air units assigned to interdiction are at maximum strength. As the turn progresses, they become weaker and weaker as units are knocked into reorganization and planes are destroyed or damaged. So, as I said above, number of strikes per round (and the strength of those strikes) will not be constant. Rather, they will attenuate as the turn progresses. Furthermore, if the turn ends normally ("End Turn" button pressed with no attacks scheduled), Interdiction units get a final chance to strike stationary targets, and (I think) are especially liable to do so if interdiction strikes had been light up to that point. All of this will tend to more or less equalize the total number of strikes.

Perhaps you're saying, 'maybe one side doesn't want all these airstrikes so they limit combat rounds'. Well, perhaps neither side wants the airstrikes but in order to perform combat rounds and enable interdiction of the other sides supply and units the airstrikes have to be suffered.

My only question is why? Why does no one have any control over airstrikes?

General: "Commander, we want you to ground your aircraft this week so you can refit"

Commander: "Sorry General, not possible. The enemy has made some attacks so we have to make airstrkes against them because."

General: "Because why?"

Commander: "DUH! Because the rules say."

Commander: "Sir"

Players have complete control over how many (if any) and specifically what air units they assign to interdiction. Furthermore, they control just where those units are placed, thereby controling just what enemy areas are under that interdiction. They are under no obligation to do any interdiction whatsoever if they so desire.

[Panama]

I never said anyone ever got a set number of airstrikes at any point in any turn. I said 'average'. That means the airstrikes are totaled and divided by the number of combat rounds to get an 'average'.

I also know that as the turn progresses some air units will be grounded. I kind of figured this would be common knowledge. Maybe I was wrong and it's not.

And, yes, players have complete control over whether and where they want interdiction. However, and THIS is the problem. If you want interdiction you have to put up with the airstrikes whether you want them or not. And therein lies the conundrum for one side or the other or in long scenarios for both sides.

I'm not saying the airstrikes are good or bad. I'm saying two things.

1. If all things are equal one side has the distinct possibility of having more airstrikes because of game mechanics simply because one side goes through more combat rounds. This even though the amount of time passed is the same for both sides. Why can't both sides have the same number of air strikes? Connecting air strikes to combat rounds seems to be the sticking point. If one side has air units on interdiction why not allow them to conduct airstrikes even though they have no ground combat? What is the logic that glues one to the other?

2. On the other hand, if a player has air units on interdiction why force them to conduct airstrikes? Why not allow them to simply conduct interdiction of moving units and supply and leave it at that? Why force them into a box where it's either this or that? Why, if I'm the German side in FiTE do I have no choice about what I do with my valuable air resources? I MUST interdict the Soviets. Not to would be foolish. But then my air units end up conducting airstrikes even if I don't want them to bleeding off precious air assets. I don't care if I can place them here or there. They are out of my control attacking Soviet assets when I need them to stay put and do what I want them to do.

It's all about not giving choices when choices are necessary.

interdiction = 0
interdiction/airstrikes = 0
airstrikes = 0
number of airstrikes = 0

If interdiction = 1
then number of airstrikes = 0

If interdiction/airstrikes = 1
then get number of airstrikes per combat round

If airstrikes = 1
then get number of airstrikes per combat round



That's all I got to say about that.

Panama

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Panama

I never said anyone ever got a set number of airstrikes at any point in any turn. I said 'average'. That means the airstrikes are totaled and divided by the number of combat rounds to get an 'average'.

I've never said otherwise.

I also know that as the turn progresses some air units will be grounded. I kind of figured this would be common knowledge. Maybe I was wrong and it's not.

Your knowledge of this was completely and totally absent in your first post. You said side A with 5 rounds would average 5 per round, and side B with only 2 rounds would also average 5 per round. You clearly assumed that the average strikes per round would be constant over the course of the player turns. Based upon your point 1, below, I don't see much progress on that point, either.

1. If all things are equal one side has the distinct possibility of having more airstrikes because of game mechanics simply because one side goes through more combat rounds. This even though the amount of time passed is the same for both sides. Why can't both sides have the same number of air strikes? Connecting air strikes to combat rounds seems to be the sticking point. If one side has air units on interdiction why not allow them to conduct airstrikes even though they have no ground combat? What is the logic that glues one to the other?

I'll repeat: The fact that interdiction strengths will attenuate over the course of the turn, coupled with the mechanism for End-of-Turn air strikes should combine to mitigate any such disparities.

To give an example, say side A's first combat phase has 10 strikes, then second has 6, third 4, fourth 2, and fifth 1. The end of turn triggers 1 strike, for a total of 24.

Side B's first then has the same 10, its second has the same 6, then its end of turn triggers a further 6, for a total of 22. About the same.

Now, if the turn doesn't end normally - it ends due to a Force Proficiency Check Failure - then the two player turns aren't actually representing the same time interval. Side B's turn was cut short by side A getting the jump on him. Side A doesn't get as much out of his interdiction units as he would if the turn had ended normally, but he is more than compensated by catching side B's units with their pants down.

Without intensive, rigorous tests, using realistic and representative test scenarios, we can't know if there even is a problem that needs to be addressed. My guess is that there is not.

2. On the other hand, if a player has air units on interdiction why force them to conduct airstrikes? Why not allow them to simply conduct interdiction of moving units and supply and leave it at that? Why force them into a box where it's either this or that? Why, if I'm the German side in FiTE do I have no choice about what I do with my valuable air resources? I MUST interdict the Soviets. Not to would be foolish. But then my air units end up conducting airstrikes even if I don't want them to bleeding off precious air assets. I don't care if I can place them here or there. They are out of my control attacking Soviet assets when I need them to stay put and do what I want them to do.

I think the reason the air strikes were added was to address the condition where the phasing player doesn't move many units, leaving the interdicting air units with little to do. The idea was, that, if they sortied on interdiction, and didn't spot anything, then on the return to base, they would empty their bombs on targets of opportunity. You should see that strikes against stationary targets go down when there are a lot of strikes against moving targets, and vice-versa.

The fact is, as far as losses to air units are concerned, there is no material difference between striking a moving unit and striking a stationary one. If it is in the enemy player's interest to induce your interdicting units into strikes, he can do so just by moving AAA units around till as many strikes as he wants are triggered (a well known ploy). Adding an ability to forgo strikes against stationary targets would probably be futile in this regard. Nevertheless, that's a legitimate wish for the list, for what that's worth. I don't see it as very high priority, though.

[Panama]

Good God man. You even see the word average in the first post and you still fail to understand it. It means the airstrikes are not the same in every round so they are added up and then divided by the number of rounds. That is an AVERAGE. It would indicate to any reasonalbe person that I realized from the start the the airstrikes are not evenly spread about the rounds. Why do I waste my time explaining what average means? It's like explaining it to a small child. Not trying to insult you. I just don't understand why you have such a difficult time seeing what I meant from the get go.

And if someone is unhappy because another player doesn't move any ground units for them to bomb they should realize their air units on interdiction are still suppressing supply, not sitting around doing nothing. What ordinance would be used for that? Something is being used.

I'm tired of running in circles. People with brains larger than my Simian Mark I can run in circles.

Do what you want with the game, I dunna care anymore.

Oh wait. I was thinking about the ordinance dumping. So these air units are making bombardment attacks against stationary ground units? Are these attacks handled the same way as they are if I'm telling them to attack a ground unit? It shoud be. And isn't that wasteful of air assets, making attacks against stationary ground units which is much more deadly than against units in road march formation?

Just a passing thought.

[sPzAbt653]

I'm in favor of my air units that are assigned to interdiction striking enemy units that move. I'm not in favor of them striking random stationary targets after each of the oppositions combat rounds. For that, I can use the same air units during my phase, and I can direct them on the targets of my choice. I don't see the reason or logic for the way things are currently set.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I don't see the reason or logic for the way things are currently set.

I quite agree. I don't see why in the world TOAW would be designed to make random air strikes that a player didn't order. I would rather give them targets I chose myself. Not having a way to turn off the random air strikes seems arbitrary and "chrome" in the game that I could do without. Wish there was a fix in the works for this "feature".

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Panama

Good God man. You even see the word average in the first post and you still fail to understand it. It means the airstrikes are not the same in every round so they are added up and then divided by the number of rounds. That is an AVERAGE. It would indicate to any reasonalbe person that I realized from the start the the airstrikes are not evenly spread about the rounds. Why do I waste my time explaining what average means? It's like explaining it to a small child. Not trying to insult you. I just don't understand why you have such a difficult time seeing what I meant from the get go.

Sorry, but there's just no way for you to wiggle off. Simple use of the work "average" is not sufficent. That only indicates an understanding that the number of strikes per round will be random, not that they will attenuate over the turn. The numbers you used are what matter.

Your first post stated that a turn lasting 6 rounds would average 5 strikes per round, and that a turn lasting 2 rounds would also average 5 strikes per round. Had you understood that the strikes would attenuate over the turn, those numbers would have been more in line with the averages from my example above (in that case, the 5 round turn averaged 4.6 strikes per round, while the 2-round turn averaged 8 strikes per round). The attenuation means that the strikes will tend to be concentrated in the first few rounds.

Comprehension of that was completely and totally missing from your first post, and has remained so in all subsequent posts. I'm happy if you've finally got it. But realize that it largely counters your original complaint.

Oh wait. I was thinking about the ordinance dumping. So these air units are making bombardment attacks against stationary ground units? Are these attacks handled the same way as they are if I'm telling them to attack a ground unit? It shoud be. And isn't that wasteful of air assets, making attacks against stationary ground units which is much more deadly than against units in road march formation?

Not at all. The effects of enemy AS and AAA are the same in either case. The impact of the bombs may not be as good, since the stationary units may not be in Mobile deployment, while moving units always are (but still get the benefits of terrain).

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I'm in favor of my air units that are assigned to interdiction striking enemy units that move. I'm not in favor of them striking random stationary targets after each of the oppositions combat rounds. For that, I can use the same air units during my phase, and I can direct them on the targets of my choice. I don't see the reason or logic for the way things are currently set.

I think I explained the logic of it above (but don't attribute the idea of it to me, by the way - only Norm knows what led to it being implemented). But I don't have any objection to revising it in some fashion - I just don't see it as comparable in importance to many other things on the list.