Observation on Japanese v Allied Pilot Quality

[Q-Ball]

The devs have done a fantastic job in this game, and an often thankless one too. So farbeit from me to pick nits, I do want to float out a couple observations regarding pilot quality, and see if it warrants a tweek somewhere.

I think there is little, if any difference between Japanese and Allied pilot quality in the long haul. At start there definitely is, as there should be, but once you wipe out the first cadre on both sides, it seems that the quality and process is identical. Let me explain.

Replacements come from the pool about 35-ish in experience; sure, the Allied pilots maybe a few points higher, but at that level that represents maybe a week of on-map training. Both sides train on-map the same way. Thus, BOTH SIDES will end up with about the same quality of pilots. Now, it could be that the Japanese pilot school runs dry of even the 35-exp guys, but I am not there yet.

You could even argue that the Allied have a tougher time keeping up in pilot quality. A good example is the IJN v USN pilots. IJN Pilots can on-map train in a number of units, including ones stuck in the Home Islands. Where do USN pilots on-map train? Only on a carrier sitting in port or if the airgroup is pulled off the CV, because there aren't any shore-based units that the USN can use for on-map training.

Thus, I can see that over time the IJN pilot quality WILL erode, but it will erode pretty much right down to the Allied level, not below it. Both sides will trend toward the same level plane of what can be accomplished via on-map training. The only Allied advantages might be they have more air units to do on-map training with.

First, are others finding the same thing, or am I off-base? To the devs, does the Japanese pilot program crash later in the war for lack of even the 35-exp guys? If I am right, and we want to simulate the slow decline of Japanese pilot quality, how do we do that?

I would almost advocate the elmination of on-map training, but extending the replacement training to 2 years, and if you leave a pilot in 2 years they are an elite pilot. If you pull them out after 1 year, and they are pretty good pilots. Etc. Or something.

Anyway, putting that out there for debate.

[chesmart]

US Navy gets spare squadrons Fighter, DB an TB which you can use to train on shore, I like swapping carrier groups and training them in lahania which i expanded size 9. I normally try to keep an average of 75-80 exp level in my squadrons.

[ckammp]

ORIGINAL: che200

US Navy gets spare squadrons Fighter, DB an TB which you can use to train on shore, I like swapping carrier groups and training them in lahania which i expanded size 9. I normally try to keep an average of 75-80 exp level in my squadrons.

The US Navy does not get any non carrier-based F, DB, or TB squadrons at start. The first Fighter group arrives in Aug 43, the first DB group arrives in Apr 43, and the first TB group doesn't arrive until Aug 44. What is the USN supposed to do until receiving these units?

[chesmart]

Well I use marine squadrons and re size them to fit until the spare groups arrive.Why what do you do to train your cv pilots ? Till now i have kept a very good AA ratio.

[Nemo121]

I've come to much the same conclusion as Q-Ball. I actually don't mind the way this works out as I don't see why Japan MUST have poorer quality graduates in a hypothetical war just because this happened in the real war.

With that said though I have been toying with the idea of creating a few large groups ( maximum plane size ) for each of the services to give each service the option of easy on-map training.

E.g. USN:
Establish 2 x 100 pilot fighter, 1 x 100 pilot DB and 1 x 100 pilot TB squadrons which are perma-restricted to CONUSA in one of the CONUSA ports. Players could then draw their USN graduates into these squadrons with 40 Exp and then just set them to train, taking pilots out as needed.

My concept is that this would make pilot training considerably less fiddly, allowing players to run a few centralised "finishing schools" on-map instead of having to draft 40 Exp pilots into their elite CV groups and trying to train them up in-group... as the USN doesn't really get lots of spare groups which can sit around on land doing nothing but training. If the USN player wants to train in 42 he or she must really unload a CV and use those squadrons as training groups.

I think the above concept could act as a good, simple, effective work-around.

Comments welcome as there may be things I'm missing which make this a terrible idea.


FWIW one could also model differences in training between nations by varying the number of training slots in each group.

[ny59giants]

Start out with a smaller size for the USN units and allow them to expand to a larger size at a specific date. And add a few more training squadrons as the war goes on. 

[sfbaytf]

Interesting.

Mabye in the next campaign game or 2 I'll have time to play with the pilot traing stuff. For now I just rely on the Soviet/Russian method. Send them out to fight and let combat do the rest. There are too many other things to learn and worry about at the moment.

Keep in mind this works with LBA, not carrier pilots and carriers. Land bases can get hit with bombs and never sink. Carriers and ships are another matter altogether.

Think of it this way. Land based air and airfields are the heavyweight bruts that can take licking and keep on ticking. They are just slow in comming.

Carrier and naval air are the bantamweitgh and lightweight fighters. Quick, manueverable and pack a sting, but have a weakness-the glass jaw. One good punch and they go down.

[EUBanana]

So... how do you train up exactly?

Is there a way to send trained pilots back into the pool so you can send em from your training squadrons in SF to the front?

Cunning use of withdraw squadron or some such?

All I do atm is have pretty much the entire map training bar the front, and then rotate squadrons to and from the front, however, attrition (my infamous 30 day loss and such [;)]) makes that hard.

[Mynok]

Are the Allies really that bereft of F4F, SBD and Devastator groups with which to train pilots? I've never played them so do not know.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Are the Allies really that bereft of F4F, SBD and Devastator groups with which to train pilots? I've never played them so do not know.

Up till summer 42 at least I think you only get a couple of non-CV SBD squadrons, half a dozen Banshee squadrons though, and no off-carrier torpedo bombers aside from whatever dregs the British have and the Aussie Beauforts.

The issue I have though isn't the squadrons - you got loads of them - but the huge effort involved rotating those squadrons when a task as trivial as, say, swapping some fighters out at Christmas Island involves an AK and a week long sea voyage through sub infested waters, while for a Zero it'd be a 'transfer base, done' dealio. The fact that the Allied zone is a long ring rather than a blob with good interior lines doesn't help.

Hence why I wonder if there's some wizardry by which you can train up units in San Francisco and somehow get those pilots into the global pilot pool.


Other thing is, if you send instructors to training command, does that not increase the skill of the pilots that pop out the end of it?

[Mynok]

The consensus of what I read is that TRACOM increases the amount of pilots but no increase in skill over the national level...whatever that is.

[vonTirpitz]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I think there is little, if any difference between Japanese and Allied pilot quality in the long haul. At start there definitely is, as there should be, but once you wipe out the first cadre on both sides, it seems that the quality and process is identical.

I am going to guess that both pilot training programs are essentially the same for both sides, as you say. They should be in my opinion.

The onus on training pilots to higher levels of experience is in the advanced training programs which the allies are, in the long run, better equipped to handle. Add this to the numerical and technical advantages the allies have and the high losses they will inevitably inflict I think the results would come out exceptionally well actually. Remember, the problem wasn't that the Japanese did not have the skill to train good pilots, they just never could keep enough of them alive to build up the overall quality again past the early war.

Also, in my opinion, I do not believe that pilots should be 'automatically' trained to higher levels than they are already. There is only so much classroom and flight training can accomplish. Therefore, in order for a pilot to become so-called 'elite' or 'veteran' status they should (and do) get there through combat experience only.

Just imagine if the devs had put in 'historical' attrition to our pilot pools? [8D] I believe that the USN alone lost more aircraft (and pilot trainees) in training squadrons than they lost in combat during the war. Add that to my score! [:D]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

I believe that the USN alone lost more aircraft (and pilot trainees) in training squadrons than they lost in combat during the war. Add that to my score! [:D]

Pretty sure I also read that somewhere as well.

[Chickenboy]

Q-ball,

I'm not very far along datewise in my PBEM games, but I can forsee the reality that you describe. I can't see how my allied opponents will be able to keep pace in terms of pilot quality. I'll be watching this as the games progress...

ETA: revamping pilot training / quality YET AGAIN is something that I can't imagine the Devs are going to be embracing right about now. For short-term solutions, I think we're talking HRs here.

[sfbaytf]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

So... how do you train up exactly?

Is there a way to send trained pilots back into the pool so you can send em from your training squadrons in SF to the front?

Cunning use of withdraw squadron or some such?

All I do atm is have pretty much the entire map training bar the front, and then rotate squadrons to and from the front, however, attrition (my infamous 30 day loss and such [;)]) makes that hard.

Good question. I haven't bothered sending anyone back to training command. If you really think about it, its very bad management on my part.

Then again it works for me. Your milage may vary....

Yes I rotated squadrons.

I also give my squadrons rest. In time you'll get some crack squadrons in P-47's, P-38's, F-4U's that can easily hold their own. I have squadrons with 250+ kills. May not be record holders compared to other players, but I'm not out to gain records or medals.

SEA and China is another story

I still have a few squadrons flying P-39's and P-40's with hundreds of kills under their belt waiting to upgrade. They just wern't in the right place at the right time when the upgrades became available.

In any event I'm not going to get too confident. Don't know what my opponent has up his sleeve. I've already encountered Ki-84's and Niki's.

Carrier pilots is another story. I have some with combat experience and some without.I'm much more cautious with my ships. As mentioned before, the enemy can drop bombs on my airfields and they won't sink. Carriers and ships are another story. When the time comes I'll see how well they do.

I'll admit the pilot training part of the game, I neglected this go around. There were other areas I focused on.

As other's have mentioned, take the game one step at a time a focus on one or two things at a time and get good at them. Once you learn one thing well, learn another.

I'm not the best carrier or naval tactician, but I've become a decent LBA, island hopper and for now that works for me.

As the old saying goes-they's more than one way to skin a cat and this game/simulation gives you plenty of opportunities to see what is possible.

[sfbaytf]

No wizzardtry on my part. Just good old fashion get them to where they need to be management. Its work, but I enjoy it.

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Are the Allies really that bereft of F4F, SBD and Devastator groups with which to train pilots? I've never played them so do not know.

Up till summer 42 at least I think you only get a couple of non-CV SBD squadrons, half a dozen Banshee squadrons though, and no off-carrier torpedo bombers aside from whatever dregs the British have and the Aussie Beauforts.

The issue I have though isn't the squadrons - you got loads of them - but the huge effort involved rotating those squadrons when a task as trivial as, say, swapping some fighters out at Christmas Island involves an AK and a week long sea voyage through sub infested waters, while for a Zero it'd be a 'transfer base, done' dealio. The fact that the Allied zone is a long ring rather than a blob with good interior lines doesn't help.

Hence why I wonder if there's some wizardry by which you can train up units in San Francisco and somehow get those pilots into the global pilot pool.


Other thing is, if you send instructors to training command, does that not increase the skill of the pilots that pop out the end of it?

[sven6345789]

guess it is not a question about pilot training alone.
although it is correct that you only get a small number of units as the us navy, training is possible, for example if carriers got into refit. but let us take a look at some other parts od the equation
a) pilot pools. They are larger for the allied side, at least concerning the US pilots, resulting in being able to absorb sustained losses better.
b) airplanes. Late war allied planes (F6F, Corsair) are better than what the japanese generally have available. a 50 Exp pilot in a F6F has a realistic chance against a 70 Exp pilot in a Zero. Not to mention the large production runs of these planes.
c) number of airgroups. The allied player gets a LOT later in the war, enough to rotate units around. This includes the carriers (Essex-class); If you want to get japanese exp. down, only constant attacks will do this. All assets are needed.

so late war, allied groups have the better planes and more of them, being able to rotate the units around, not to mention the increased Flak, which should be a killer to japanese airgroups. The Japanese, on the other hand, will have problems keeping up an experinced pilot reserve once they end up in a battle of attrition.

[Ron Saueracker]

You know, after reading Ludstrom etc and realizing that USN pilots often make their first carrier landings upon joining a squadron in 1942, what really gives any replacements an air rating above 30-40 anyway? Used to hate the fact that a pilot like Welch, because he shot down a couple of planes at PH on Dec 7th rates him a 90+ exp level in WITP. Hmmmm, what would Hans Marseille's exp level be, or Dougie Bader's, or countless other pilots with more kills than birthdays be...? Glad to see the more sensible levels of experience in AE.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The devs have done a fantastic job in this game, and an often thankless one too. So farbeit from me to pick nits, I do want to float out a couple observations regarding pilot quality, and see if it warrants a tweek somewhere.

I think there is little, if any difference between Japanese and Allied pilot quality in the long haul. At start there definitely is, as there should be, but once you wipe out the first cadre on both sides, it seems that the quality and process is identical. Let me explain.

Replacements come from the pool about 35-ish in experience; sure, the Allied pilots maybe a few points higher, but at that level that represents maybe a week of on-map training. Both sides train on-map the same way. Thus, BOTH SIDES will end up with about the same quality of pilots. Now, it could be that the Japanese pilot school runs dry of even the 35-exp guys, but I am not there yet.

You could even argue that the Allied have a tougher time keeping up in pilot quality. A good example is the IJN v USN pilots. IJN Pilots can on-map train in a number of units, including ones stuck in the Home Islands. Where do USN pilots on-map train? Only on a carrier sitting in port or if the airgroup is pulled off the CV, because there aren't any shore-based units that the USN can use for on-map training.

Thus, I can see that over time the IJN pilot quality WILL erode, but it will erode pretty much right down to the Allied level, not below it. Both sides will trend toward the same level plane of what can be accomplished via on-map training. The only Allied advantages might be they have more air units to do on-map training with.

First, are others finding the same thing, or am I off-base? To the devs, does the Japanese pilot program crash later in the war for lack of even the 35-exp guys? If I am right, and we want to simulate the slow decline of Japanese pilot quality, how do we do that?

I would almost advocate the elmination of on-map training, but extending the replacement training to 2 years, and if you leave a pilot in 2 years they are an elite pilot. If you pull them out after 1 year, and they are pretty good pilots. Etc. Or something.

Anyway, putting that out there for debate.

you are spot on! The only way to see the Japanese ending up producing the same skilled pilots as the Allied is to completely wipe out all their pilots every month. Not possible I guess. Even if they run out of pilots that graduate from flight school, there will be endless supply of exp/skill 10-15? pilots and as we all know, the lower the exp/skill the faster you gain through training. So in fact the Allied pilots need perhaps 2-3 weeks less on map training when they come out of flight school compared to the Japanese. Add in the production rates of the Japanese in a PBEM that has gone the normal way and you will soon find out that until hundreds of top fighters and heavy bombers coming out of the factory (late 44) you are in deep trouble. [:D]

As for the USN pilots, either you do training in port or you use your land based USN squadrons as training squadrons and draw pilots onto the carriers from the land based squadrons when you need them. I expect every skilled Japanese player to do on map training whenever possible (heck, I also expect the unskilled ones to do that), so the pilot quality won´t decline a lot until very, very late in the war.

In WITP it took me 3 months to see a complete rookie becoming quite an ace with the "on map training" (bombing, not the training order). It´s the same in AE. Within 3 months every flight school graduate will have reached 70 skill easily and it´s not possible to train further up anyway. Skill, not exp but as we´ve learned, skill is what you really need, not exp (which doesn´t go up without much combat anyway). What has changed is the way to get elite pilots. In WITP it was on map bombing of empty bases and in AE it´s the training order.

[CapAndGown]

Several posters here have mentioned "rotating squadrons." With the new training system and "get veteran" option in place, you should not be rotating squadrons. You should be rotating pilots. For the Japanese, at least, this is easy. All of Manchuko is one vast training zone. As the pilots get up to a level you are happy with, you pop them into the general reserve, and pull in new pilots from the replacement pool. Meanwhile, your frontline squadrons can pull in the higher skill pilots from the reserve pool that you have been filling with graduates from your training squadrons.

What Q-Ball is saying is that the USN does not have (any?/enough?) land based squadrons with which to exercise this option. This seems like an easy fix. Just add some CONUS limited squadrons the USN can use for training. I would not, however, recommend only a few, big squadrons. Better to have a number of smaller ones. This way you have the option of training pilots with multiple skills. So for instance, you have all the groups get up to speed on their primary mission, such as naval bombing. If you do not have a need at the moment to draw on that many naval bombers, you can then switch one or two of the groups to training for naval search or asw.

I would note, however, this management of pilots is the most user hostile part of the whole game. It was apparently designed to tantalize the player while leave him forever frustrated. Too often, when you "request a veteran" he does not show up on the squadron's list of pilots. Instead, he is on separate list that is available through the intelligence screen. This really needs to be fixed. When a pilot is requested, he should immediately show up on the list of pilots in the squadron regardless of whatever delay may be involved.