Why I don't like the research part of the game. Can someone explain please.

[HsojVvad]

I have said in other posts why I don't like the tech or research part of the game. Part of the reason, is I feel like I am researching nothing. Here is an example. Enhnaced Recreation Center RC-200. WTF does it do? I see it's a bigger size, more static energy used and the value is bigger. So what! WTF does it do? I am wasting research money into this what I don't care for. Why should I care for it, WTF does it do?

How much more happiness does it give me? When I compare basic Recreation Center to Enahnced Recreation Center I don't see what it does. When I click on it, so I can see what it does, it goes to the galactopedia and tells me higher recreation tech make better facilites further increasing happiness of citizens. So what. If I am suppose to want this tech, I should know at least how much more it will improve my happiness. At this rate I wouldn't even crash this research since I do not know how much it will really improve my empire.

There is only a few techs that I am willing to crash research, why should I even bother with Recreation Centers?

Am I missing something here? Can someone explain to me what I am missing?

What I would like to see in an expanssion pack, is better documentation of techs. I would want to be able to pick what I want to research. I never liked the random pick of techs. When I played Alpha Centauri, I never picked the random factor when it comes to picking what next to research. I hope that this part of the game gets an over haul.

To repeat once again, I can understand this is the desingers vision of the game. Where I say it's a complete fail is when I research something like a Recreation Center and all I am told is it's better but I can't see why it's better is bull crap. How do I know it's better? All I know is, that it's more expensive to use and uses more power. I want facts. Is it 10% better? is it 20% better? I guess better docmentation is needed and explained.

I do love this game, I really do, but every time I start a new game, I cringe when I open up the Research screen to see what I have and what I need to research and prioritize in what I need to do.

[Dadekster]

Yeah I get the same disconnect there. Still a great game, just I feel what you do and I can't help think, this could be sooooo much better. At least it is still early and they are working on and listening to lots of things. Hope this will be another thing they can get to at some point.

[lordxorn]

ORIGINAL: Davor

I have said in other posts why I don't like the tech or research part of the game. Part of the reason, is I feel like I am researching nothing. Here is an example. Enhnaced Recreation Center RC-200. WTF does it do? I see it's a bigger size, more static energy used and the value is bigger. So what! WTF does it do? I am wasting research money into this what I don't care for. Why should I care for it, WTF does it do?

A bigger and better recreation center is a great thing because it will keep more of your citizens happy, thus more tax revenue. Hence research is not wasted.

As far as what percentage of increase does it improve you have a point in where the game can be more clarified.

I have thought doing a comprehensive guide to offer this kind of information, however I have been focused on my mod. It will be time consuming to compare the components with different designs, but can be helped with the in game editor.

So this may be a challenge to others who have the time to create a comprehensive to all the components in game?

[Canute0]

If you want see how much a Medical or Recreation improve the happyness of your colony, check the population tab at your colony.

But you are right, they could add the value of the happyness bonus at the description of the component.

[HsojVvad]

I was slowly accepting the tech/research game part of DW, but then I finally tried and went to look for exactly what recreational centers do, and it was the straw that broke the camels back, and I had to say something. You are right Dadekster, it is a great game, I am believe CodeForce and Matix will fix this. I will be shocked if it's fixed in a patch. But I am hoping that it will be addressed in an expansion. This is a great game, and I do see that it will be a better game when an expansion comes out. I just hope the research game improves immensly. That is what expansions are for, to change the way the game plays, not just add 2 or 3 new units, buildings and tech.

YES I am looking at you Sid Meirs. I never bothered with Warlords their first expansioin for Civ IV. But I see they did put alot of effort for Beyond the Sword, so I picked that one up. And because of the efforts gone into BtS, I will get Civ V. If it was another Warlord type expansion, I wouldn't have bothered with it or Civ V.

I am looking forward to the expansion of DW. I can't wait for it.

[siRkid]

I agree it's like researching in the blind. Like right now I want to build recreation centers and I can't but I have no clue why I can't build them.[:@] I really dislike this part of the game

[lordxorn]

Let me put this out there, I am totally and completely happy with the state of DW. Patches are coming out at an unprecedented rate, and the game is fun in it's current state.

Is the game perfect, definitely no! What game is.

I would rather have the game right now in it's current state, then say not having the game at all and still waiting for release so the devs can continue to perfect the game.

One thing to remember, what Codeforce has accomplished is something simply amazing for a first release. The original Master of Orion was technically a second design, and even still needed many further improvements which eventually became MOO2. (I will not talk about SEV lol)

I believe the issue with research is something that can be resolved in a patch, not an expansion. Remember what Erik said (Davor you should know this more than others) that they want to smash all the bugs before adding new stuff from the wishlist. So make sure you address your desires there.

The research issue is not a bug, and frankly I don't understand what all the hoopla is about. The research is as straight forward as it gets. That is my opinion and I by no means want to offend everyone. We all interpret data differently.

[deanco2]

I think the main issue is that there is only one way to influence it: crash research.  Other than that, the only other control you have is building, for example, only weapons labs, which is in itself a drawback, because it becomes impossible to easily switch to say, high tech.  All those weapons labs are not going to go away and they will suck points away from the new high tech labs you build.  So the end result, from this players view, is that research just sort of happens.  I make sure I have enough labs to cover my output, and from time to time I get a message that I've discovered something.  No real involvement.

I can't help but think that Moo 1 did it best.  You were constrained, but you still had a real choice between 2 or 3 things, and you wanted them all, but could only have one.  Then you could mess with the sliders to lean the research one way or another, giving more control.  Yet getting a breakthrough was still a random number, taking away some control.  They struck a perfect balance between choice and no choice.  Here, it's 90% 'no choice', is the vibe I get from DW.

That doesn't really bug me that much though, but I think the game would be better if they introduced the tension element in MOO 1 instead of having so little control over it.

[Erik Rutins]

Building labs is effectively how you adjust your "sliders" though. To be honest, I don't exactly follow the original poster's critique. I can't figure out if the main problem that's bugging Davor is the research system or that components are not well enough described?

[Bartje]

My main concern with the research in DW is that the components and tech tree are really confusing.
 
The techs have good names, this is a nice touch and definetely a keeper.
 
Its troubling though not to be able to place what's what. What came earlier; what's newer etc..
 
It's difficult to comprehend. Difficult to get oversight. I have no clear overview.
 
This is especially troubling when we are trading tech with other races.
 
It's only a slight trouble but I'm not quite sure if it falls within a feature request or bug category.
 
Its not really one of either; If anything I suppose its a UI / accesability improvement ??

 
 
You're right about the labs. That's a good part of the research system!
 
 

[siRkid]

ORIGINAL: Bartje

My main concern with the research in DW is that the components and tech tree are really confusing.

The techs have good names, this is a nice touch and definetely a keeper.

Its troubling though not to be able to place what's what. What came earlier; what's newer etc..

It's difficult to comprehend. Difficult to get oversight. I have no clear overview.

This is especially troubling when we are trading tech with other races.

It's only a slight trouble but I'm not quite sure if it falls within a feature request or bug category.

Its not really one of either; If anything I suppose its a UI / accesability improvement ??



You're right about the labs. That's a good part of the research system!

I feel the same way. For example, I had to come to the boards to find out I had to research construction yards in order to build bigger ships. That might seem obvious to some but it was not to me. Again, right now I can't build recreation centers and I have no clue why. In almost every other game I can tell what effect the next researched item is going to have, but not in DW. I almost never get that "must have" feeling. I just let things go as they are.

Don't take any of this the wrong way. If I did not like the game, I would not bother posting.

[jscott991]

I think the components need much better descriptions.

Should a ship have ECM?

Should it have a cloak?

Should it have a hyper deny weapon?

What is the effect of all the plants?

How much better are the habitation modules?

All of this is either not presented or poorly presented.

It's hard to tell when you should upgrade, when you should just wait, etc.

However, my only major complaint about research is that it is too fast on normal. I know they just slowed it down, but not enough. The only tech tree that should move that fast is the shipyard one. Everything else needs to go slower.

[Kruos]

However, my only major complaint about research is that it is too fast on normal. I know they just slowed it down, but not enough. The only tech tree that should move that fast is the shipyard one. Everything else needs to go slower.

Hmm... I have not your experience of the game jscott, but I doubt that colonization tech should be slower. I think that if these tech are slowers to learn they will no longer be useful versus 'multiraciality'. For example, while playing one of my first 'big game' I realize that what boost my colonization ability whas not the fact that I had learnt a colonization tech (which I hadn't) but was that my empire had gain a tolerant race by migration. And after playing a little with the editor it appears that often -if not always- 'multiraciality' is a far better boost to colonization ability than technology.

So, I fear that if you slow down colonization tech you finally remove any interest in these tech, in regards of 'multiraciality' colonization ability.

Slowing down colonization tech could be possible, but in this case you have to tweak a little the 'multiraciality' colonization ability to keep some kind of balance in colonization tools, in my opinion.

(hoping I write something understandable ^^)

[deanco2]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Building labs is effectively how you adjust your "sliders" though.

Yes, but it's hard, and clunky, to 'readjust' them later. If I could 'refit' my weapons labs to high tech, I could understand the mechanic. But you can't. The best you can do is scrap them and build new ones, which is unintuitive to say the least.

And of course, a construction ship on auto, that you lose track of for a few minutes, can upset your careful division of labs by deciding to build a couple of labs.

Like I say, for me, it's far from a dealbreaker, the way it's set up now, I just thought I'd share my opinion.

[lordxorn]

Ok I tested the effects of a Medical and Recreational facility on a starting colony with 60 Culture (Development).

I am also including screenshots for all the details.

The main effect was that on Happyness which can help with war wariness and taxation. Thus allowing you to fight longer, and collect more revenue.

Happiness without any starbase is 12.
First set of Med and Rec facilities yields 17,
Second set 20
Third set 23


The combined effects are as follows
Basic Rec Center + Standard Med Center Gives = 41.7% Bonus to Colony Happiness
Enhanced Rec Center + Small Med Center Gives = 17.65% Bonus to Colony Happiness
Resort Rec Center + Large Med Center Gives = 15% Bonus to Colony Happiness

Based on those numbers the returns are diminishing, and adding the starter tech with a small space port would be the best strategy for your large population colonies, or problem colonies. The highest tech should be reserved for your best colonies.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

However, my only major complaint about research is that it is too fast on normal. I know they just slowed it down, but not enough. The only tech tree that should move that fast is the shipyard one. Everything else needs to go slower.

Hmm... I have not your experience of the game jscott, but I doubt that colonization tech should be slower. I think that if these tech are slowers to learn they will no longer be useful versus 'multiraciality'. For example, while playing one of my first 'big game' I realize that what boost my colonization ability whas not the fact that I had learnt a colonization tech (which I hadn't) but was that my empire had gain a tolerant race by migration. And after playing a little with the editor it appears that often -if not always- 'multiraciality' is a far better boost to colonization ability than technology.

So, I fear that if you slow down colonization tech you finally remove any interest in these tech, in regards of 'multiraciality' colonization ability.

Slowing down colonization tech could be possible, but in this case you have to tweak a little the 'multiraciality' colonization ability to keep some kind of balance in colonization tools, in my opinion.

(hoping I write something understandable ^^)

I agree with you completely. Slow down colonization tech AND tweak the multiracial ability to colonize.

[ceyan]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. I mean I get that some people want specific numbers, but the in-game Galactopedia has simple and straight-forward descriptions of components. There are a few details which I wish I could clear up (mostly just what kind of rate does a single plant transform resources into components), but by and large the component section was one of the parts I liked best because it was mostly clear and concise.

Or... did no one look at the component section of the Galactopedia?

Edit:
Plus the tech names are fairly sequential. Its pretty obvious to tell what is the most advanced component.

[taltamir]

so, aside from the in game documentation of exactly what each tech gives you being sparse and more a few too many clicks away... what is exactly the problem?

The one complaint I registered is that some people would like more control then just crashing, but I actually really like the current approach... in most game you only research one item, here you research one item if you pay for it, or you research all of them at once... I like it.

And... what else?
Its not that I am trying to be dismissive of the complaints, I am just not sure I even understand what the problem is with research.

[taltamir]

The main effect was that on Happyness which can help with war wariness and taxation. Thus allowing you to fight longer, and collect more revenue.

Which is a pretty huge effect, I build a small space port (at least) on every single planet I have. (and keep them upgraded via the mass retrofit buttons)... all with the latest medical and recreation facilities.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Building labs is effectively how you adjust your "sliders" though. To be honest, I don't exactly follow the original poster's critique. I can't figure out if the main problem that's bugging Davor is the research system or that components are not well enough described?

Adjusting sliders in this way isn't terribly practical, because the system is simply not terribly responsive to your decision: It takes a good deal of time to build a base, and the usage ratio is not alterable by you. Additionally, the research system is rather opaque and it is never clear how long it will take, where it is going, or whether it is going at all, which gives little clear incentive to try to push things in one direction.

Then again, real research is like that, too.

Maybe we should make it more realistic: Instead of building generic "labs" that generate research at all, your empire's scientists propose research projects that may or may not be useful, and ask you for grant money. You decide whether or not to fund these projects, and then maybe they produce results, or maybe they just produce requests for more money. Depending on various racial factors, you may get something cool out of it, or it may just end up sucking down money for years as scientists accomplish nothing useful and producing only requests for more money.