A suggestion to Matrix

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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Numdydar
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A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Numdydar »

As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI. I would be willing to pay for such a product. I would also be willing to pay for an expansion that would include an AI at a later date. As no work to date on an AI has been done, this would allow some monies to be gained to help the project in the long term.

The major question of whether this is viable or not depends on the difficulty of adding the AI in an expansion versus adding it as the development progresses. If adding the AI later would cause major problems, then this would not work. As I do not know enough about how the game is programed, I make this as a suggestion only and maybe others can comment on whether or not this idea is even feasible or not :)
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wworld7
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by wworld7 »

This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is having an AI is part of the contract for the project.
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michaelbaldur
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by michaelbaldur »

the AI is almost finished ....

we are just waiting for the last bugs to be fixed before we add it to the game...

just wait .. the game is perfect
the wif rulebook is my bible

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bo
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

As WiF is progressing, my suggestion would be to release the game without an AI. I would be willing to pay for such a product. I would also be willing to pay for an expansion that would include an AI at a later date. As no work to date on an AI has been done, this would allow some monies to be gained to help the project in the long term.

The major question of whether this is viable or not depends on the difficulty of adding the AI in an expansion versus adding it as the development progresses. If adding the AI later would cause major problems, then this would not work. As I do not know enough about how the game is programed, I make this as a suggestion only and maybe others can comment on whether or not this idea is even feasible or not :)
Gee I thought the AI was being worked on, but if you have only posted 25 posts in 6 years you are not paying much attention to the posts or Steves posts, If Matix only sold their game to the cadre here meaning all the posters and board game players they would go bankrupt even if everyone here bought it, they need the rest of the gaming world to be interested to make a decent profit and the rest of the gaming world will demand an AI,
a fact of life in the gaming world.

Bo
Numdydar
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Numdydar »

BO,

I hate to be harsh, but how can you claim that 'you know' what I have been paying attention to and for how long? Just because I do not post, in no way implies that I have NOT been paying attention. Also, Computer War in Europe which has no AI has sold pretty well and Decision Games is not going bankrupt because of it. So not having an AI is not the end of the world, especially if it could be included as an addon later.
ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

This has been discussed in the past numerous times and is not viable for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is having an AI is part of the contract for the project.


Also, the contract is still valid becauset he AI STILL will be done, just not as part of the initial release. Plus contracts can always be revised (I know, because I have done enough of that in RL) so that is not a reason NOT to follow through on my suggestion. The best reason to not use my suggestion is .....
ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

the AI is almost finished ....

we are just waiting for the last bugs to be fixed before we add it to the game...

just wait .. the game is perfect

However, in the last three month status reports from Steve (April-June), the AI section had 'Nothing new'. Given that as the status for three months it would imply that zero is being done on the AI at all. Hence the reason for my suggestion. Matter of fact, the last time there was an update on the AI was in the Jan 2010 status report. So unless I have really missed something (which I will admit is entirely possible), this lack of status implied to me that the AI was on hold (or being completely ignored for the time being).

As that seems not to be the case due to the quote above, then my OP no longer has any merit (unless balancing the AI will take a long period of time).
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Minority Report »

I am not posting often but I have been following this forum for quite a while, and I have been playing WIF since 1989.

I made the same suggestion in August 2005 on this forum with the same rationale, and I got a similar answer: a game without an AI is not a proper game. fb.asp?m=918551

Given the complexity of MWIF, I am not sure this is a valid argument, and yes there are other successful computer wargames without AI. I also agree that the contract issue is a false excuse. A contract can be re-open if both parties agree to do so. For the AI being near completion, I think it only means that the setup for the minor countries, and a list of grand strategies for the major powers are done. Not the actual programming and debugging.

In the end, however, I don't think Matrix will change the course because it is Steve who is taking all the risks, as he will be paid only when the game is sold.

So, we will have to wait until the game is ready as planned.
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by bo »

Numdydar I dont find you harsh at all and I stand corrected if you been watching and you certainly do not have to post if you do not want to or if you feel you have nothing to add on any subject but I heard the AI was being worked on, and I have to disagree with you about the AI if you read my whole post I mentioned I do not care at this moment if the AI is done now or at a later date as long as it done, the average player who plays all the SC series and their is 40 million or so playing it [;)] would never buy the SC series with out an AI, I am retired so I can wait to play a person at any time but I believe the average person here who has to work to pay the bills does not have the time that I do to get someone to play at each others convenience and if they truly love the game which they do they can play the AI, I will stand behind my remark NO AI very few sales and I believe that Matrix is in the business of making a profit [&o] gee could be wrong.

Bo
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Anendrue
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Anendrue »

Nothing new does not mean on hold or abandoned. It means there is nothing new to announce. We need bugs out of the game mechanics first. Once that is done it becomes easier to integrate a new component into the game. Think of the AI as a component that is plugged into the game for use. It is only used in one of five modes of play. The modes are Solitaire, Hotseat, Internet, PBEM and AI.
Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.
Numdydar
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Numdydar »

Whenever I reported status and that type of activity was going on, I would state that as "In progress' as that implies that that some activity is still occuring yet nothing major had changed since the last period. Just a suggestion :)
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Patience
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Patience »

All,

I agree that the AI is likely very close to done.  Most of the more recent news about the AI has involved debugging.  Putting together the supply routine is yet another step "this elephant" (As Steve would put it) has taken toward its final destination.  Like many of you I am hopeful that it won't be much longer and would love to see it soon.  I have confidence that when MWiF is released it will be everything we hoped for and I believe that this is Steve's goal as well.[:)]
"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Whenever I reported status and that type of activity was going on, I would state that as "In progress' as that implies that that some activity is still occuring yet nothing major had changed since the last period. Just a suggestion :)
I have to agree with that but most of us have been following all the posts not just Steve's monthly report, and please not being negative just stating a known fact.

Bo
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Let me interject into this discussion that the Artificial Intelligence Opponent code is not "almost done".

Beyond that, I will revert to "no comment" on this topic since my participation in a dialogue here does not advance the game's completion.
Steve

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Norden_slith
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Norden_slith »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Let me interject into this discussion that the Artificial Intelligence Opponent code is not "almost done".

Beyond that, I will revert to "no comment" on this topic since my participation in a dialogue here does not advance the game's completion.

Ah, and I was just beginning to wonder, where those "AI almost done" posts were hiding. Just as Numdydar, I follow this forum close without a lot of posting. So, Bo, nice postcount, but maybe you should start reading instead. This goes for a lot of people here. I cannot count all the times an innocent question (yes, it has been asked before - in 2005 - it seems) is torn down with derisive comments form "topposters". My respect to Numdydar for staying calm and thus actually getting answers instead of a flamewar.
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bo
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Norden

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Let me interject into this discussion that the Artificial Intelligence Opponent code is not "almost done".

Beyond that, I will revert to "no comment" on this topic since my participation in a dialogue here does not advance the game's completion.

Ah, and I was just beginning to wonder, where those "AI almost done" posts were hiding. Just as Numdydar, I follow this forum close without a lot of posting. So, Bo, nice postcount, but maybe you should start reading instead. This goes for a lot of people here. I cannot count all the times an innocent question (yes, it has been asked before - in 2005 - it seems) is torn down with derisive comments form "topposters". My respect to Numdydar for staying calm and thus actually getting answers instead of a flamewar.
Ah a flame war, cant wait for one to begin[:D] maybe if you would read posts you would have realized that I have gone from idiotical negative to a very positive poster I guess I will just have to be neutral from now on[>:] for with some people you cant win but tying once in a while would be nice, how about reading my posts a couple of months back you would think my name was Crussdaddy[&o] thats a compliment Crussdaddy[;)]

Bo
Numdydar
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Numdydar »

No flamewar [:)] needed by me so flame out, lol.

My OP was based on the following

a) I would MUCH rather have a game system released for sale where all the mechnics worked really well without an AI
b) I wanted to let Matrix know that they had at least one customer that WOULD buy such a product
c) I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way

As many people here have experienced, releasing games with a poor AI can be worse than not having any (TW: Empire anyone). Having a decent AI with a game this complex is an enormous challenge. I am also sure that given enough time Shannon can develop one. By releasing the non-AI version (while it may not generate as much revenue as a product with an AI, it still WILL generate some cash flow), Matrix (and Shannon) can use a portion of these funds the ability to create a better AI, imho.

I am not sure why this argument seems to cause such an issue as that is definately NOT my intent and if I have offended anyone, I certainly appoligize for it.

I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view [:)])





Bibs
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Bibs »

ORIGINAL: bo


Ah a flame war, cant wait for one to begin[:D] maybe if you would read posts you would have realized that I have gone from idiotical negative to a very positive poster I guess I will just have to be neutral from now on[>:] for with some people you cant win but tying once in a while would be nice, how about reading my posts a couple of months back you would think my name was Crussdaddy[&o] thats a compliment Crussdaddy[;)]

Bo


I'd say you have gone from idiotic negative to idiotic positive.
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Patience
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by Patience »

Steve,

My apologies. I did not mean to imply that you were finishing up the AI. I realize the extremely difficult task you have before you.

Respectfully...
"Time is the greatest teacher... Unfortunately she kills all her students."
bo
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No flamewar [:)] needed by me so flame out, lol.

My OP was based on the following

a) I would MUCH rather have a game system released for sale where all the mechnics worked really well without an AI
b) I wanted to let Matrix know that they had at least one customer that WOULD buy such a product
c) I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way

As many people here have experienced, releasing games with a poor AI can be worse than not having any (TW: Empire anyone). Having a decent AI with a game this complex is an enormous challenge. I am also sure that given enough time Shannon can develop one. By releasing the non-AI version (while it may not generate as much revenue as a product with an AI, it still WILL generate some cash flow), Matrix (and Shannon) can use a portion of these funds the ability to create a better AI, imho.

I am not sure why this argument seems to cause such an issue as that is definately NOT my intent and if I have offended anyone, I certainly appoligize for it.

I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view [:)])





Geez what is your problem I agree with you[&o]

Bo
bo
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Bibs

ORIGINAL: bo


Ah a flame war, cant wait for one to begin[:D] maybe if you would read posts you would have realized that I have gone from idiotical negative to a very positive poster I guess I will just have to be neutral from now on[>:] for with some people you cant win but tying once in a while would be nice, how about reading my posts a couple of months back you would think my name was Crussdaddy[&o] thats a compliment Crussdaddy[;)]

Bo


I'd say you have gone from idiotic negative to idiotic positive.
Oh Bibs I was always a middle of a roader until I started posting here but one thing I did do was wake you up from your slumber[:D] wow 2001. But regardless your statement could not be truer.
Bo

Bo
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BallyJ
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RE: A suggestion to Matrix

Post by BallyJ »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

No flamewar [:)] needed by me so flame out, lol.

My OP was based on the following

a) I would MUCH rather have a game system released for sale where all the mechnics worked really well without an AI
b) I wanted to let Matrix know that they had at least one customer that WOULD buy such a product
c) I wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way

As many people here have experienced, releasing games with a poor AI can be worse than not having any (TW: Empire anyone). Having a decent AI with a game this complex is an enormous challenge. I am also sure that given enough time Shannon can develop one. By releasing the non-AI version (while it may not generate as much revenue as a product with an AI, it still WILL generate some cash flow), Matrix (and Shannon) can use a portion of these funds the ability to create a better AI, imho.

I am not sure why this argument seems to cause such an issue as that is definately NOT my intent and if I have offended anyone, I certainly appoligize for it.

I also wanted to point out that just because everyone says that they will not buy a game without an AI, is that a real opnion? If MWiF was released tomorrow with no AI, would you REALLY not buy it after looking at the screen shots that Shannon has provide? I know I would want it anyway, especially if I knew that at some point an expansion was to be released that would add an AI.

In the business world, it is always better to generate cash flows now, versus cash flows at some point in the indeterminate future.This thread is just one way that Matrix could do it without too much of a problem (at least from an outsiders view [:)])





I would add that I would buy the game with or without an AI
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