a good point from CCS

[STIENER]

this was posted over at CCS by a LSA player......

"Also the 107th Pnz is the most capable group as far as Units/Force Pool of posing a threat in the south, however the map that the 107th Pnz Brigade appears on should be a German Supply Point, as is currently If Im playing Allies in H2H, im am going to send an US AB group down to take their supply point at the first Map to the north so when the 107th appears on the map they will automatically be out of supply. It doesnt make sense how its currently set up. Also, it seems like the 107th Pnz brigade should maybe be split into two BGs so that they have a BG to protect their supply point. As is currently if they try to cut the corridor with only one group from that side they are going to get cut out of supply."

"also, I think Disbanded German BGS should be able to return"

i think this guy makes a very good point on the 107 PZ....im un decided on the disbanded BG's should be able to return...ill let u know. BUT i think that the germans should NOT be penelized for retreating after they blow a bridge. that was in another post here.
as it is the german losses squads from his active roster for retreating after he blows the bridge. i dont think this is right. ther germans arn't strong enough in the game as it is.

[RD Oddball]

Thanks for relaying the input Steiner.

[STIENER]

oddball....heres some more from CCS.......i dont know why these guys arent postin here but im not the only one that has issues with the armour and mortor data'......... QUOTE >

new patch has helped pathing SO much, bouquett boys well done.

i have played the grand campaign now both sides, a total of 6 times, on recruite to now on veteran, and wow german armour is shit. morters always take out main guns LOL(any tank, any side)

but the armour and guns needs a major look at.

german 88 flax taken out with first round with 60 or 80/3"morter, im so friggin over this! OMG first round at about 200 meters from tube, unsighted, kills all crew and gun 1 hit, this is so common, make the guns a little hartier, or tune down morters, there to powerfull....same with any gun, there pinned down in seconds by riflemen, flax guns i find killed by rifle section, thats silly...

german half trucks will not fire if 'supressed'symbol is showing, i have worked around it by moving truck about, wait 30 seconds and try again, what BS fix it please.

my panther brigade was decimated by 2 bazookas, one side on at 60 meters(my bad not clearing it out first) but 100 meters front on, both 1 round, 1 smoked panther, WTF? its to consistant! and piats still take out king tigers front on, WTF?

UNQUOTE>

its not just me..........[8D]

[kojusoki1]

get rid of medium mortars and have more mortar support... thats all.
A few months ago i TRIED to pick up a medium mortar. No way, it wights so much that you cannot certainly move with this. Not even mentioning running.
And medium mortar alone is useless - you need ammo also.
So at a tactical level (in which a map of CC game is) medium mortars should be removed. Only light mortars.
Also medium mortars in CC engine are far better then modern mortars integrated with GPS and radar - I mean instant targeting:)

[RD Oddball]

ORIGINAL: STIENER

oddball....heres some more from CCS.......i dont know why these guys arent postin here but im not the only one that has issues with the armour and mortor data'......... QUOTE >

new patch has helped pathing SO much, bouquett boys well done.

i have played the grand campaign now both sides, a total of 6 times, on recruite to now on veteran, and wow german armour is shit. morters always take out main guns LOL(any tank, any side)

but the armour and guns needs a major look at.

german 88 flax taken out with first round with 60 or 80/3"morter, im so friggin over this! OMG first round at about 200 meters from tube, unsighted, kills all crew and gun 1 hit, this is so common, make the guns a little hartier, or tune down morters, there to powerfull....same with any gun, there pinned down in seconds by riflemen, flax guns i find killed by rifle section, thats silly...

german half trucks will not fire if 'supressed'symbol is showing, i have worked around it by moving truck about, wait 30 seconds and try again, what BS fix it please.

my panther brigade was decimated by 2 bazookas, one side on at 60 meters(my bad not clearing it out first) but 100 meters front on, both 1 round, 1 smoked panther, WTF? its to consistant! and piats still take out king tigers front on, WTF?

UNQUOTE>

its not just me..........[8D]

Thanks for the extra opinions from CCS Steiner. We'll throw it into the mix. And I don't think anybody doubted that there might be others who held the same opinions as you about how the data should be set-up.

[RD Oddball]

ORIGINAL: kojusoki1

get rid of medium mortars and have more mortar support... thats all.
A few months ago i TRIED to pick up a medium mortar. No way, it wights so much that you cannot certainly move with this. Not even mentioning running.
And medium mortar alone is useless - you need ammo also.
So at a tactical level (in which a map of CC game is) medium mortars should be removed. Only light mortars.
Also medium mortars in CC engine are far better then modern mortars integrated with GPS and radar - I mean instant targeting:)

Thanks for the feedback Kojusoki1.

[davidss]

ORIGINAL: kojusoki1

get rid of medium mortars and have more mortar support... thats all.
A few months ago i TRIED to pick up a medium mortar. No way, it wights so much that you cannot certainly move with this. Not even mentioning running.
And medium mortar alone is useless - you need ammo also.
So at a tactical level (in which a map of CC game is) medium mortars should be removed. Only light mortars.
Also medium mortars in CC engine are far better then modern mortars integrated with GPS and radar - I mean instant targeting:)

Dima's Medium mortar data in the TLD Ground Tactics ver1.71 mod is near perfect in my opinion. After trying the mod(first)without med mortars ... I am now convinced there is a place in the active roster for med mortars, although with the proper data.

The only further improvement would be to have a built in delay from when you click to fire the mortar, to when the first round hits the ground at target site (maybe 10-30 seconds). This would simulate the time a forward observer would require to relay target info, and for mortar teams to range their mortars and fire.
It would also allow more time for enemy targets to further their advance (after being detected), before suppression fire lands.

The delay would require internal game developers expertise

[STIENER]

i dont agree kojusoki1.......i also like the 80 mm mortors they just need tweaking.....like David says the GJS data / Dima data works real good.
and as far as moving a med mortor thats why they have a crew and break the mortor down. this close combat not drag a mortor 10 miles........in CC the mortor crew get fatiqued quite fast, so you cant move it very far anyways.
its the fact that the crew keeps moving 2 feet and re setting up the mortor and its accuracie that needs to be tweaked.

[RD Oddball]

It's a good idea Davidss. Early in the process we'd discussed delayed mortars but opted not to do it. The main reason being it'd drastically reduce their effectiveness beyond what they are realistically and would also put them out of step with game balance. Mainly due to the fact rounds would be falling far behind their targets or in locations where no target exists due to attempting to anticipate where a target is going to be. Without effective mortars AT guns and other battlefield assets gain a huge increase in importance that is out of balance with the rest the data set. Currently we feel mortars provide a necessary checks and balance against other assets.

We might, possibly revisit the idea of delayed mortars in the future.

[Andrew Williams]

A delay would be the ideal...

As to the counter argument I thought it meant a total rewrite of the mortar control data... as it is they will target and hit a spot at point of firing... so if your HT moves 50m it still gets hit (if that's what the calculation was).... you will see this if you test.

If the vehicles could scurry out of the way that would be ideal.. as anticipating the position of a moving target is extremely difficult. (but not in CC)


AT guns can't run away like a motorised vehicle.

[e_barkmann]

I feel sure the original Atomic games had a delay between targeting and actual mortar fire.

cheers

[davidss]

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

It's a good idea Davidss. Early in the process we'd discussed delayed mortars but opted not to do it. The main reason being it'd drastically reduce their effectiveness beyond what they are realistically and would also put them out of step with game balance. Mainly due to the fact rounds would be falling far behind their targets or in locations where no target exists due to attempting to anticipate where a target is going to be. Without effective mortars AT guns and other battlefield assets gain a huge increase in importance that is out of balance with the rest the data set. Currently we feel mortars provide a necessary checks and balance against other assets.

We might, possibly revisit the idea of delayed mortars in the future.

Thanks for the reply
I understand the reasoning you've mentioned ... but would like to present "in game" examples of why a delay might better simulate mortars in CC. Like you say, a delay may make mortars virtually useless ... but maybe not with a short delay.

Let's look at the characteristics of Medium mortars used in TLD Ground Tactics 1.71.
Medium mortar:
1. Accuracy to hit targeted area is random enough to simulate mortar fire misses, while still capable of scoring a direct hit (although rarely). The 200m minimum range (to fire) helps keep them from being extremely accurate, and forces players to keep them back further from expected front line action ... as was the case in real life.
2. Data can be tweaked to realistic penetration values that best simulate the effect mortars have on vehicles. GT 1.71 seems to demonstrate this. Mortars shouldn't damage vehicles (mostly), but should be able to somewhat suppress the crew inside while under mortar fire.
3. ATG vs. Med Mortar ... An enemy ATG is spotted, and then targeted by a mortar. In most cases the ATG crew will be suppressed and possibly unable to fire. Sometimes one or more crew will get wounded or die. Very rarely will the ATG be destroyed.
This seems to be the norm in GT ... and in my opinion works well. Mortar fire suppresses the ATG, so other units can pass by or attack the ATG. Once the mortar uses its ammo ... the remaining ATG crew regains its health.
And rarely the ATG is destroyed by mortar fire ... which should be a possibility.
4. Infantry vs. mortars - When firing on moving infantry ... mortars will wound/kill. Prone infantry, for the most part, just get suppressed. Randomness of fire still plays a considerable roll though ... and results aren't really predictable.
5. Med mortar setup time is comparatively larger than other units which stops them from being moved around many times ... but they can still retreat when necessary. Crew movement is also slow to simulate carried weight of equipment.

So, under these conditions with this data, mortars seem to work OK.

The problem I see, is ... mortars suppress moving infantry too quickly (instantly) with relatively little effort by the mortar firing player. A short delay (perhaps just 5-10 seconds) would make targeting mortar fire more challenging, due to a player having to lead the target. This would further randomize the results of mortar fire hits, while at the same time reward the more skillful player.

[STIENER]

Oddball...tell me your not saying what i think your saying???? your saying matrix isnt going to deal with the mortor accuracie issue? [&:]
let me paraphrase, in case thats what your saying..........
the play testers..the guys that bought the game.....have found that the mortors are too accurate......that mortors take out a/t guns [ one of the assets that we need to counter tanks ] with ease at any range, with just a few rds. mortors imobilize tanks very frequently [ totally unrealistic ], mortors take out guns on tanks [ totally unrealistic ]

or are you saying YES we are going to look at all of the above listed issues BUT we are not going to put a mortor DELAY in???

what i find with most replys from the matrix lads here [ yes you might be a matrix lad too ] is that we dont get a YES or NO answer on the issues we bring to your guy's attention. mostly were just left hanging.

so heres another question that it would be nice to have an answer too [ as well as the mortor issue ] is matrix going to look at the out of wak data with the tank vs tank issues?? [ as is posted in other threads ]

[kojusoki1]

The delay in the FIRST shot (time like 1 minto calculate things) is what we need. Now, we have a laser guided GPS integrated XXI centrury mortars they fire in 2 secs and hit the area. The penetration is realistic and should stay as it is - belive me guys you woudnt like to be close the mortar shell explosion... And you would be even more upsaet due to mortar barrage when explosives are close to you (like at the ATG)

So I agree med mortars can be carried but not during the fight. They are simply way too heavy. But what is most annoying and what is the reason I get rid of them, is the ability to fire at the given location with no time for calculation. So if you can fix it (but i mean ONLY the first shot - other can be one by one) it would be great

[RD Oddball]

I was giving the back story on delayed mortars. We've already looked at the mortar accuracy issue and tweaked it for every update that has been done so far. Also the armor data has been reviewed and replied to several times. If we missed on PM me the link and we'll answer it. Any time the necessary information and a specific set of circumstances required to replicate a given reported issue is provided we'll reproduce it on our end and fix anything that is actually broken. This has always been the case and will continue to be so.

[davidss]

Hi RD_Oddball,
Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions, and help us better understand what's going on

[STIENER]

Thanks oddball for taking the time to answer our questions, and help us better understand what's going on. altho you did it again and didnt answer the 2 questions about mortor vs tanks, so ill PM you with my un answered questions [8D]

[TheReal_Pak40]

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

It's a good idea Davidss. Early in the process we'd discussed delayed mortars but opted not to do it. The main reason being it'd drastically reduce their effectiveness beyond what they are realistically and would also put them out of step with game balance. Mainly due to the fact rounds would be falling far behind their targets or in locations where no target exists due to attempting to anticipate where a target is going to be. Without effective mortars AT guns and other battlefield assets gain a huge increase in importance that is out of balance with the rest the data set. Currently we feel mortars provide a necessary checks and balance against other assets.

We might, possibly revisit the idea of delayed mortars in the future.

Please do revisit the mortar delay issue. I honestly think that not having a mortar delay is what is out of whack with the game. Many others think the same. Even if it's just a slight delay that simulates the flight of the round, say 5 seconds or so. It would be a nice compromise.

[RD Oddball]

Thanks for the input Pak40.

ORIGINAL: STIENER
... so ill PM you with my un answered questions [8D]

Stiener I responded to your PM so please let me know if you didn't receive it. I copied myself so I'd retain a copy in case you didn't get it and so I would know it worked it's way through the PM system. It came went through so you should have it in your inbox.

[STIENER]

got your reply RD Oddball...thanks and one from steve too [:)]

it would be way cool if steve made some changes to the armour, Tank vs Tank data etc.......