Soviet defense of Moscow axis of attack - Jam stay out

[jjdenver]

BigA, Flav, and anyone else who wants to comment:

I saw a post a couple of weeks ago by BigA that mentioned he usually doesn't put up a strong defense until the Rzhev-Vyazma line, but Flav puts up a defense around Smolensk (I think I got that right).

So let's assume I want to defend around Rzhev-Vyazma. I have a few questions.

First - by what turn can the Germans normally get supply run to the Vyazma area, assuming their railhead advances at max speed?

Second - how do you recommend arranging the defense - an every-hex defense belt running N-S, then what behind it? a 1 hex gap then another similar defense belt? Or some checkerboard formation (can't imagine this since Panzers would quickly infiltrate it)?

Third - what level do you expect your forts to be at when the Germans hit each defense line? 2? 3? Getting a 3 fort defense line at Vyazma-Rzhev seems like a tough task to accomplish by the time I'd expect the Germans to hit it (probably turn 7?).

Fourth - how do you handle the south flank? The terrain seems more open on the Tula axis - how do you prevent the Germans from sweeping east and flanking your defense? Is it just supply that prevents this initially followed by maybe a checkerboard delay?

Any other comments about how to defense Moscow? I'm in a game where the Germans snuck into Smolensk on turn 5 so I'm quaking in my boots about whether I can hold Moscow.

Thanks

[2ndACR]

Turn 6 to turn 7 will have a rail head at Vyazma. At least that is what I average in my games. Usually turn 7.

I play German, so I would not be too worried. Turn 5 near Smolensk puts them on a short supply line. Weak units to the front of your line to force an attack thru them, strong units behind building forts. Any swamp hex should have a strong rifle div in it. They are a pain in the backside to clear. Even with level 1 forts.

It takes me about 2 turns to replenish my supplies once my rail head gets to the front.

[ComradeP]

First - by what turn can the Germans normally get supply run to the Vyazma area, assuming their railhead advances at max speed?

55 rail hexes from the border near Kaunas to Vyazma. Checkerboarding should prevent them from getting there early if you do it right.

Second - how do you recommend arranging the defense - an every-hex defense belt running N-S, then what behind it? a 1 hex gap then another similar defense belt? Or some checkerboard formation (can't imagine this since Panzers would quickly infiltrate it)?

If you use the light woods hexes in your advantage, you can build a pretty solid line. The only thing you need to achieve is that they don't walk into Moscow. If the Axis have to fight for every hex, there's not going to get there. A massed defense is quite successful against a Panzer attack with an obvious target and little to no room for flanking attacks.

Third - what level do you expect your forts to be at when the Germans hit each defense line? 2? 3? Getting a 3 fort defense line at Vyazma-Rzhev seems like a tough task to accomplish by the time I'd expect the Germans to hit it (probably turn 7?).

That depends on how many units and how many construction battalions/brigades you commit. Smolensk: 2-3, Vyazma 3-4, Moscow 4 maybe even a 5.

Fourth - how do you handle the south flank? The terrain seems more open on the Tula axis - how do you prevent the Germans from sweeping east and flanking your defense? Is it just supply that prevents this initially followed by maybe a checkerboard delay?

They can't be everywhere at once. If they advance to Tula, they'll face the historical problem that their flanks are wide open.

[karonagames]

With the usual caveat that there is no guaranteed "I win" solution to Soviet defence in 1941; I work on the "3D" principle: Delay, Depth and Digging. Where I can't get Depth or Digging I will Delay. When he gets through my Depth I Delay, but I try to be Digging all the time in front of my high value objectives.

On turn 3 a whole bunch of militia divisions arrive, and these are the ones that I set digging to protect Leningrad's ports and rail line, and on the Rzhev-Kaluga line. All the on map divisions that activate on Turns 2 and 3 form the "Deep" defences in front of Smolensk. The depth of the South's defences will depend on how much is much is lost in the turn 1/2 pockets, so I may have to delay, but I will always dig in front of Kiev and the Dnepr south of Kiev from T2 onwards. As each batch of reinforcements come in, I extend the digging line on either side of Rzhev and Kaluga, until I connect with Leningrad and Kiev. As well as digging, they are training and refitting, so there is a triple benefit. Once the digging/training/refitting line is established, and new batches of reinforcements come in, I send the trained units forward to add to the depth/delay defences and the new trainees take their place and continue digging. I also start looking at where my "Alamo" line will be, depending on where the Axis looks to be committing most effort, but usually this will be be 2-3 hexes in front of Moscow and Tula following the river lines wherever possible. In the south I have to decide whether to dig in front of Kursk/Belgorod/Kharkov. If I dig behind the cities the Axis might reach them by the time mud arrives and be isolated, so you can commit less troops. If my initial losses have not been too high and I have more depth in the south,then I would dig in front.

One way to speed up the digging is to spend APs to build 4-6 construction battalions in each Army HQ, as these will add to the digging efforts of all units in range. The testers went very OTT in doing this tactic in early testing, I tend to balance between spending on CBs and getting the better generals in the most threatened sectors.

In between the First Dig/training line and the Alamo I would try to have additional lines spaced every 2-3 hexes in front of the major objectives, but this all depends on troop availability. If the first line gets smashed then I may have no choice but to delay back to the Alamo. Due to the civilian digger help in front of major cities it is possible to get level 4 entrenchments in the Alamo by the time the Axis arrives.

By turn 8 the Axis supply line in AGC is at it's longest and the panzers are operating on 20ish MPs, and it is at this point they need to be thinking twice about hasty attacks, and level 3 entrenchments filled with trained divisions should do this. Once the Axis is forced to switch to deliberate attacks, their rate of advance will slow dramatically.

1941 is nerve-wracking for the Soviets, but it is essential that you look for every opportunity to mess with the Panzer spearheads - if they have attacked 3-4 times in the previous turn and have not been resupplied by air, they will be fatigued and low on ammo; if you have a deep defence in front of them, stack your guys so you can get 6-9 divs making a deliberate attack, give them 7Inf rated leader, and throw 'em at the panzers. Retreats can cost the panzers 1/3 of their tank strength, and be a blow to the axis player's morale.

Never give in. Never Surrender.

[Flaviusx]

Here's a couple of screenshots from a Road to Moscow PBEM I'm playing right now to give you some idea of how to do it. Unit density in this scenario is probably higher than you can muster in a campaign game (other fronts tend to bleed off forces) but the general principles should apply.

[Flaviusx]

And the second screen.

[ComradeP]

It sucks to be your opponent, Flavio. The unlucky man isn't going to get close to Moscow with such a defence in place.

Why the huge amount of AP's by the way, ran out of leaders to improve?

[Flaviusx]

I've run out of things to do short of buying stupidly overpriced combat units. My leaders are in place, my command is sorted out, my SUs are as I want them. I would probably be buying more SUs in a campaign game and stockpiling them in STAVKA to fit out corps, but that's a moot point here.

[JAMiAM]

Impressive lines in the screenshots, Flaviusx. However, you're also on turn 13. The problem that JJ is having is that he's facing similar concentrations of force, and front locations, yet is only on turn 5/6. This has left him significantly fewer turns to build up force, and dig in.

And yes...I *am* spying...[;)]

[Flaviusx]

Heh. Well, this is why I make a tough stand in front of Smolensk and on the Dnepr/Dvina line generally. I love turning this place into a grind, with plenty of counterattacks.

Nevertheless a defense in mass on a line further east is doable. Those panzers are going to be lonely, the infantry is surely lagging, and I suspect they're not very fresh. I'd need some screens to be more specific here.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

BigA, Flav, and anyone else who wants to comment:

I saw a post a couple of weeks ago by BigA that mentioned he usually doesn't put up a strong defense until the Rzhev-Vyazma line, but Flav puts up a defense around Smolensk (I think I got that right).

So let's assume I want to defend around Rzhev-Vyazma. I have a few questions.

First - by what turn can the Germans normally get supply run to the Vyazma area, assuming their railhead advances at max speed?

Second - how do you recommend arranging the defense - an every-hex defense belt running N-S, then what behind it? a 1 hex gap then another similar defense belt? Or some checkerboard formation (can't imagine this since Panzers would quickly infiltrate it)?

Third - what level do you expect your forts to be at when the Germans hit each defense line? 2? 3? Getting a 3 fort defense line at Vyazma-Rzhev seems like a tough task to accomplish by the time I'd expect the Germans to hit it (probably turn 7?).

Fourth - how do you handle the south flank? The terrain seems more open on the Tula axis - how do you prevent the Germans from sweeping east and flanking your defense? Is it just supply that prevents this initially followed by maybe a checkerboard delay?

Any other comments about how to defense Moscow? I'm in a game where the Germans snuck into Smolensk on turn 5 so I'm quaking in my boots about whether I can hold Moscow.

Thanks

Heh yea in my game my axis enemy got to the out skirts of smolensk by t5. So i was scared and focused there. He pulled back a panzer army and did a right hook around lake ilmen and cut off leningrad on t11.


But yea i'd be glad to read up on this since my lines are all a line with a space then another line in good terrain where possible.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

First - by what turn can the Germans normally get supply run to the Vyazma area, assuming their railhead advances at max speed?

55 rail hexes from the border near Kaunas to Vyazma. Checkerboarding should prevent them from getting there early if you do it right.

Second - how do you recommend arranging the defense - an every-hex defense belt running N-S, then what behind it? a 1 hex gap then another similar defense belt? Or some checkerboard formation (can't imagine this since Panzers would quickly infiltrate it)?

If you use the light woods hexes in your advantage, you can build a pretty solid line. The only thing you need to achieve is that they don't walk into Moscow. If the Axis have to fight for every hex, there's not going to get there. A massed defense is quite successful against a Panzer attack with an obvious target and little to no room for flanking attacks.

Third - what level do you expect your forts to be at when the Germans hit each defense line? 2? 3? Getting a 3 fort defense line at Vyazma-Rzhev seems like a tough task to accomplish by the time I'd expect the Germans to hit it (probably turn 7?).

That depends on how many units and how many construction battalions/brigades you commit. Smolensk: 2-3, Vyazma 3-4, Moscow 4 maybe even a 5.

Fourth - how do you handle the south flank? The terrain seems more open on the Tula axis - how do you prevent the Germans from sweeping east and flanking your defense? Is it just supply that prevents this initially followed by maybe a checkerboard delay?

They can't be everywhere at once. If they advance to Tula, they'll face the historical problem that their flanks are wide open.

Comrade question. I've been building RR construction regiments (maybe battalions?) and i'm wondering if i attach them to an HQ do they help all attached units construction value if they are in range? I've seen the AI also break them off to repair rail lines as well. Hopefully i didn't waste those men by making RR construction units.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

With the usual caveat that there is no guaranteed "I win" solution to Soviet defence in 1941; I work on the "3D" principle: Delay, Depth and Digging. Where I can't get Depth or Digging I will Delay. When he gets through my Depth I Delay, but I try to be Digging all the time in front of my high value objectives.

On turn 3 a whole bunch of militia divisions arrive, and these are the ones that I set digging to protect Leningrad's ports and rail line, and on the Rzhev-Kaluga line. All the on map divisions that activate on Turns 2 and 3 form the "Deep" defences in front of Smolensk. The depth of the South's defences will depend on how much is much is lost in the turn 1/2 pockets, so I may have to delay, but I will always dig in front of Kiev and the Dnepr south of Kiev from T2 onwards. As each batch of reinforcements come in, I extend the digging line on either side of Rzhev and Kaluga, until I connect with Leningrad and Kiev. As well as digging, they are training and refitting, so there is a triple benefit. Once the digging/training/refitting line is established, and new batches of reinforcements come in, I send the trained units forward to add to the depth/delay defences and the new trainees take their place and continue digging. I also start looking at where my "Alamo" line will be, depending on where the Axis looks to be committing most effort, but usually this will be be 2-3 hexes in front of Moscow and Tula following the river lines wherever possible. In the south I have to decide whether to dig in front of Kursk/Belgorod/Kharkov. If I dig behind the cities the Axis might reach them by the time mud arrives and be isolated, so you can commit less troops. If my initial losses have not been too high and I have more depth in the south,then I would dig in front.

One way to speed up the digging is to spend APs to build 4-6 construction battalions in each Army HQ, as these will add to the digging efforts of all units in range. The testers went very OTT in doing this tactic in early testing, I tend to balance between spending on CBs and getting the better generals in the most threatened sectors.

In between the First Dig/training line and the Alamo I would try to have additional lines spaced every 2-3 hexes in front of the major objectives, but this all depends on troop availability. If the first line gets smashed then I may have no choice but to delay back to the Alamo. Due to the civilian digger help in front of major cities it is possible to get level 4 entrenchments in the Alamo by the time the Axis arrives.

By turn 8 the Axis supply line in AGC is at it's longest and the panzers are operating on 20ish MPs, and it is at this point they need to be thinking twice about hasty attacks, and level 3 entrenchments filled with trained divisions should do this. Once the Axis is forced to switch to deliberate attacks, their rate of advance will slow dramatically.

1941 is nerve-wracking for the Soviets, but it is essential that you look for every opportunity to mess with the Panzer spearheads - if they have attacked 3-4 times in the previous turn and have not been resupplied by air, they will be fatigued and low on ammo; if you have a deep defence in front of them, stack your guys so you can get 6-9 divs making a deliberate attack, give them 7Inf rated leader, and throw 'em at the panzers. Retreats can cost the panzers 1/3 of their tank strength, and be a blow to the axis player's morale.

Never give in. Never Surrender.

Awesome tips bigA. My opponent has been very good about using his motorized brigades to help start weak encirclements. I can typically break out and buy myself a turn or two. But the best i've managed to do so far is force the retreat of a few fully loaded infantry divisions. I've cut off a ton of his panzers all the time but it seems to hardly put a dent in his mobility. I'm constantly underestimating how far 30MP is But we're at t13. Looking like i'm going to lose either kursk or kharkov. I've got moscow locked down because he pulled an extra panzer army to do a right hook around lake ilmen and isolated leningrad. I'm flying in as much supply as i can per week 200-400 tons to the leningrad hq. But it's only a matter of time. Hopefully that will keep him busy enough for another 4 turns and winter to come around.


Payback will be fun.

Also i don't remember if it was you or comrade or both but soviet cav rock. I am constantly catching his units off guard with my cav. I typically lose them after encircling some of his mobile units but i find it to be worth the cost.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Here's a couple of screenshots from a Road to Moscow PBEM I'm playing right now to give you some idea of how to do it. Unit density in this scenario is probably higher than you can muster in a campaign game (other fronts tend to bleed off forces) but the general principles should apply.

Holy crap that's way more impressive then anything i've gotten built so far. And you already have a guards unit very impressive.

[jjdenver]

Jam - no looking - I need to post screenies to get more specific advice.

Ok Flav, BigA, CP, etc. Here is a specific screenshot. I haven't moved much. Assume I don't have any other units coming into the area. Leningrad is having problems so I had to send this turn's incoming batch up there.

This is by far the toughest situation I've faced on the AGC axis yet - very different from other games I've seen. Smolensk was seized by coup de main with only 1 division in it - a mistake by me - but it's done now.

The panzers of AGC were at least partly rested on Turn 3. I'm not very clear on whether they can outrun supply or when they wear out. I notice that Soviet motorized/tank units get very high fatigue almost always - even if they have been sitting still (bug?). But the panzers seem to go and go w/ no letdown. Their lurch forward last turn from the Vitebsk area and from 2 hex bridgehead across the Dniepr was pretty impressive.

So based on the specific situation in this game I was considering just running east to a line around Rzhev-Vyazma, stretching out in a screen toward Valdai hills north and Bryansk south. Then hoping the Panzers run out of gas before they hit it and have to wait a couple of turns for the infantry to close up - buying me time to fortify and get divisions trained and into the line.

Another thing I've noticed is that I have division cadres that aren't filling out - not enough rifle squads. I guess there is nothing I can do about that right? I've got them on refit but there are few (13?) rifle squads in the pool.

Specific advice?

[Flaviusx]

Use the cadre formations to start digging a line in the rear, running roughly Rzhev to Vyazma to Bryansk, taking advantage of terrain features, but on rail lines.

Take all of your motorized divisions off the line and stick them in level 2 forts in the rear. In your case, there aren't any visible, alas. Too many Soviet players make this mistake I'm finding and commit these units to battle on the front lines. The reason for doing this? APs. There's literally hundreds of APs waiting to be squeezed out of these units. Each one can yield around 15 APs when set to static mode, and they eventually convert over to rifle divisions and can be reactivated for 2 APs. Avoid static mode otherwise, it is mostly uneconomic except for this very major exception.

Stick them in cities for now. Make sure these, along with the cadres, are attached to armies with a generous portion of construction or RR SUs.

Your command control is a mess and needs to be rationalized. And you're going to need a ton of APs for that. Look at my screenshots for an idea of how to arrange your Fronts. You do not have Bryansk Front active yet, so contrive to organize things, from north to south, with Northwest Front, Reserve Front, and Western Front. STAVKA can act as a 4th Front here temperarily and be slid somewhere between Reserve and Western Fronts. Put Zhukov in STAVKA and leave him there until it overloads. Try to avoid overloading the other Fronts: they can basically support 3 fully decked out armies each. The Fronts, including STAVKA, like their attached armies, should get a nice portion of construction SUs.

Put first class leaders in the armies, to the extent possible, subject to limitations and needs elsewhere (if Leningrad is having problems, that will also require good leaders.)

Good Front commanders are mostly not available at this time. You may just have to roll with whatever they have in them at present and wait for your good leaders to get promoted to Colonel General.

I frankly would be looking to reinforce this area. I don't think you've got enough here. If it comes down to a choice between Leningrad and Moscow, you may have to economize in Leningrad, but I'd have to see what's going on in Leningrad before making that kind of an ugly choice.

While your diggers are laying down the line and soaking up reinforcements, you may have to go with a loose checkerboard on parts of the front. Wherever you do decide to do a checkerboard, spread it out on a two hex basis to economize forces. (Not every other hex, but every third hex.) That said, I think the terrain features on the northern part of this screen lend themselves to a linear defense and would try to hold a line along the swamps and rivers north of Smolensk. If you can spare the forces, build a second line immediately behind this, if not, spread out some reserves behind it with the idea of forming a second line with them eventually.

Eventually you want to reinforce this entire area to get 3 solid lines everywhere. This becomes amazingly difficult to punch through because they are all digging and present the Germans with a succession of fort lines as you get push back to your Alamo line along Rhzev to Bryansk.

Look for places and opportunities to counterattack. Panzers in clear, unfortified terrain at the tip of a spearhead can be mauled, especially if they are tired out. Use your rifle divisions for this: they have enough movement to dogpile on a nearby panzer, launch one good deliberate attack, and then move into defensive positions afterwards. I'm launching 2-4 attacks every turn in this area from about turn 4 onwards. (Sometimes even earlier.) This adds up and the Germans will eventually have to start pulling them out of the line to rest and refit.

Organize your CC first before launching said counterattacks to make sure the units involved are under strong generals at the army level.

Look for opportunities to isolate spearheads as well, cavalry is exceptional for this. You'll be getting a swarm of cavalry on turn 5, they'll be mostly depleted and can join the diggers in the rear for the time being.

South of there you may be forced to checkerboard it for lack of formations. Go at least 2 deep in the checkerboard, and preferably three.

[Flaviusx]

Oh one more thing.

If you are short on replacements, and can spare the APs...start disbanding corps HQs.

I actually start disbanding all of mine as early as turn 1. You can get literally hundreds of thousands of fresh troops from these. Although I suspect they are mostly gone by now.

[jjdenver]

Ah thx for the comments Flav. Here's a Leningrad SS. All of the armies in the Leningrad area have good commanders, 4 arty regiments, an RR construction brigade, and a Sapper regiment. The other fronts have the SU's in place but not good commanders, and their structure is a mess because of lack of AP's.

I'm aware the cc is a mess. It just takes a long time to get it sorted out - maybe I'm not doing it in the most efficient way possible. Leningrad armies are filled out but I've got NW Front armies that need to either shift east, or be subordinated to North Front.

Motorized divisions - great idea - didn't think of that. I normally float them around behind the front by rail as backstops since no matter what I do they always seem to have high fatigue - just like tank divisions - even when they do almost nothing.

I'd thought that I'd rather lose Moscow than Leningrad since I'd stand a good chance of taking it back during the winter but once Leningrad falls the Finns are out and I doubt I could take Leningrad back against them.

[Flaviusx]

Leningrad is fine.

You've got more than enough there for now. My only concern is you command and control. It's kinda messy up there too.

Everything from Novgorod on up should be under control of Northern Front. South of Novgorod to about Velikiye Luki should be Northwestern Front.

The city is empty in the screenshot, you really do want to leave at least one unit per hex up there.

Don't leave those swamps on the south edge of the screen empty. Occupy them, and get a line running all the way south towards the central portion of the map.

Oh, and throw up a zoc screen and hug his panzers. Don't let him march unimpeded to the Luga. Hug him. You only need 3-4 units to do this, cheap.

[jomni]

I am not able to build those "carpets" in my GC.  Though I am able to stack 3 Divs in the front line and keep Tank Brigades in reserve I fear that speading them to 3 ranks deep may be more weaker that an stack of 3.  This is against the AI and I noticed that I can keep the AI from doing any moves when I stack front lines as compared to doing checkerboard and carpets.