Hi all,
I'm having a heck of a time with coordinating air strikes. In a game I'm playing I have seven bomber groups flying from the same base to perform a ground attack at an enemy base 1 hex away. The bombers are all Nells/Bettys. They are all flying @ the same altitude. The last turn they flew coordinated strikes w/o problems.
This turn they flew 7 different strike missions to attack ground units 1 hex away.
Fighter escorts flew in 2 of the 7 air strikes by my bomber groups. I've read the manual on this and the handy-dandy thread in the War Room regarding coordination.
The primary factors according to the manual are altitude, point of origin & type of aircraft.
I don't suppose one of the developers could share with us the weighting of factors that attribute to attack coordination (or lack there of)? I'm sure there are other factors - same HQ - leader experience - morale, etc. If I could get some idea of how the different factors are weighted it would really help me out a lot.
Regards,
Mike
Air coordination
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
-
1EyedJacks
- Posts: 2304
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: Reno, NV
Air coordination
TTFN,
Mike
Mike
RE: Air coordination
Well the answer very much depends on what you view as not coordinated.
There are still some stubborn players around who think that more than one combat animation per strike
is equal to an uncoordinated strike. [;)]
This simply is not true.
A coordinated strike means that the fighter squadrons assigned to escort try to the best of their ability
to cover the ammount of bombers reserved for a mission.
The direct result of this is that the balance of force is a major factor which influences the success chances
of your attack even when it is coordinated.
If you assign (for example) a 27 plane/1 squadron escort to a strike force consisting of a multi squad 80 bomber force, even
with perfect coordination against a professional CAP the chances are very high that the CAP is able to engage part of the
bomber groups without being hassled by the escorts.
What you saw (except if you got "losing cohesion, losing contact,...messages") could well have been a coordinated strike,
you just saw different actions separated either by time or space. These are called strike packages and are part of a coordinated attack.
Many players used to the original WitP system mistake this for uncoordinated attack when in reality they just didn´t assign enough forces
(often fighter cover) to the task compared to the opposition they are expecting.
PS: the complete list of factors influencing strike coordination is in the coordination guide. Every factor counts the same, there is
no difference in impact, positive as well as negative.
There are still some stubborn players around who think that more than one combat animation per strike
is equal to an uncoordinated strike. [;)]
This simply is not true.
A coordinated strike means that the fighter squadrons assigned to escort try to the best of their ability
to cover the ammount of bombers reserved for a mission.
The direct result of this is that the balance of force is a major factor which influences the success chances
of your attack even when it is coordinated.
If you assign (for example) a 27 plane/1 squadron escort to a strike force consisting of a multi squad 80 bomber force, even
with perfect coordination against a professional CAP the chances are very high that the CAP is able to engage part of the
bomber groups without being hassled by the escorts.
What you saw (except if you got "losing cohesion, losing contact,...messages") could well have been a coordinated strike,
you just saw different actions separated either by time or space. These are called strike packages and are part of a coordinated attack.
Many players used to the original WitP system mistake this for uncoordinated attack when in reality they just didn´t assign enough forces
(often fighter cover) to the task compared to the opposition they are expecting.
PS: the complete list of factors influencing strike coordination is in the coordination guide. Every factor counts the same, there is
no difference in impact, positive as well as negative.
RE: Air coordination
I think the problem is a much
This turn they flew 7 different strike missions to attack ground units 1 hex away.
as not being escorted.
But playing Downfall, I was attacked by 400+ japanese aircraft from 8 different bases ranging from Toyko, Korea & Shanghai whereas my 3 USAAF FG from Iwo Jima went in 3 waves and a number of straggling waves.
If we knew how it worked, we could adjust our game.
This turn they flew 7 different strike missions to attack ground units 1 hex away.
as not being escorted.
But playing Downfall, I was attacked by 400+ japanese aircraft from 8 different bases ranging from Toyko, Korea & Shanghai whereas my 3 USAAF FG from Iwo Jima went in 3 waves and a number of straggling waves.
If we knew how it worked, we could adjust our game.
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
RE: Air coordination
ORIGINAL: JeffK
I think the problem is a much
This turn they flew 7 different strike missions to attack ground units 1 hex away.
as not being escorted.
But playing Downfall, I was attacked by 400+ japanese aircraft from 8 different bases ranging from Toyko, Korea & Shanghai whereas my 3 USAAF FG from Iwo Jima went in 3 waves and a number of straggling waves.
If we knew how it worked, we could adjust our game.
Again: its not neccesarily "7 different strike missions"
Its one strike mission with the replay showing 7 different actions taking place in the same area on the attack.
Contrary to popular belief, it does not matter if you see one combat animation with all bombers facing the CAP at once
or 7 strike packages where the packages are attacked separately but by the same ammount of CAP aircraft spread over
all 7 strike packs.
The resulting losses are the same.
If you closely watch the numbers of attacks (NOT the numbers shown below the planes displayed in the replay but the TRUE number
of different combat actions) you will notice that at no time the whole CAP is available to engage a single strike package. Or if
it is, the ammount of planes available to attack the other strike packages is severely reduced.
RE: Air coordination
I dont watch animations, it is openly incorrect, I get separate raid reports each made up of a portion of the attacking force. And if a target is hit in an early raid it shows as such in the later raids,ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ORIGINAL: JeffK
I think the problem is a much
This turn they flew 7 different strike missions to attack ground units 1 hex away.
as not being escorted.
But playing Downfall, I was attacked by 400+ japanese aircraft from 8 different bases ranging from Toyko, Korea & Shanghai whereas my 3 USAAF FG from Iwo Jima went in 3 waves and a number of straggling waves.
If we knew how it worked, we could adjust our game.
Again: its not neccesarily "7 different strike missions"
Its one strike mission with the replay showing 7 different actions taking place in the same area on the attack.
Contrary to popular belief, it does not matter if you see one combat animation with all bombers facing the CAP at once
or 7 strike packages where the packages are attacked separately but by the same ammount of CAP aircraft spread over
all 7 strike packs.
The resulting losses are the same.
If you closely watch the numbers of attacks (NOT the numbers shown below the planes displayed in the replay but the TRUE number
of different combat actions) you will notice that at no time the whole CAP is available to engage a single strike package. Or if
it is, the ammount of planes available to attack the other strike packages is severely reduced.
the whole CAP is available (I'm seeing this from my side) though it dwindles as it suffers losses (combat or Ops),
IFF your explanation is correct, why??
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
RE: Air coordination
Just to underline what I am trying to point out (I think for about 1 year now... [;)]):
This is a coordinated sweep:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 40,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 22
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed
CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 6 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters to 32810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
84th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters to 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
64th Sentai Det with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 35000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 40,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 20
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed
CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters between 30810 and 34810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
84th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 32810 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
64th Sentai Det with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 35000 and 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
The 2 Hurricane groups were detected only 2 miles apart and were engaged seperately,
This was not an air battle where the same Japanes fighters engaged both packages
fresh and rested.
It is easy to identify when watching the follow up combat replays and noticing the rising ammount
of CAP fighters disengaging because they already spent most of their ammunition in their first combats,
received battle damage or simply were exhausted or had their guns jammed.
EDIT: to avoid misunderstandings: The 2 Hurricane groups were initially fought by different planes available.
Only some of the CAP fighters still available from the first engagement where then able to join the other
battle but had to disengage soon because of the reasons shown above.
Some may have RTB to rearm and join the battle again, but in this case that did not happen because the initial
warning was too close already.
This is a coordinated sweep:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 40,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 22
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed
CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 6 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters to 32810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
84th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 4 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters to 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
64th Sentai Det with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 35000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Magwe , at 57,47
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 40,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 20
Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 14
Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 1 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed
CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters between 30810 and 34810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
84th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 32810 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 43 minutes
64th Sentai Det with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 35000 and 39000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
The 2 Hurricane groups were detected only 2 miles apart and were engaged seperately,
This was not an air battle where the same Japanes fighters engaged both packages
fresh and rested.
It is easy to identify when watching the follow up combat replays and noticing the rising ammount
of CAP fighters disengaging because they already spent most of their ammunition in their first combats,
received battle damage or simply were exhausted or had their guns jammed.
EDIT: to avoid misunderstandings: The 2 Hurricane groups were initially fought by different planes available.
Only some of the CAP fighters still available from the first engagement where then able to join the other
battle but had to disengage soon because of the reasons shown above.
Some may have RTB to rearm and join the battle again, but in this case that did not happen because the initial
warning was too close already.
RE: Air coordination
ORIGINAL: JeffK
the whole CAP is available
How can you know this without watching the combat replays?
You say yourself that the numbers in the combat report and the numbers displayed below the planes in the combat
animations are not correct, or at least don´t show you anything about the separate engagements taking place on a
plane vs. plane level.
[;)]
You only get a clear picture about what happened if you accurately watch the combat animations
and note the separate attacks, plane by plane.
RE: Air coordination
This is not my understanding, if its true I'm going to stop playing AE.
There is just too much hidden crap in corners that most would not look into.
WHY print results that are incorrect, FoW I can live with, this sort of thing is 100% cow dung!
There is just too much hidden crap in corners that most would not look into.
WHY print results that are incorrect, FoW I can live with, this sort of thing is 100% cow dung!
Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum
RE: Air coordination
Why? Usually its a numbers game. And total numbers can be determined through the combat report.
As can be detection range, weather and a couple of other things.
But numbers arent the end of wisdom as it was in real life.
If something goes wrong and you don´t know why from just looking at the combat report you´d
be better of watching the combat replay and try to get a clear picture of the situation in detail.
In fact I love exactly that part of the game.
It simulates real air battles much better than the old WitP.
As can be detection range, weather and a couple of other things.
But numbers arent the end of wisdom as it was in real life.
If something goes wrong and you don´t know why from just looking at the combat report you´d
be better of watching the combat replay and try to get a clear picture of the situation in detail.
In fact I love exactly that part of the game.
It simulates real air battles much better than the old WitP.
-
1EyedJacks
- Posts: 2304
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: Reno, NV
RE: Air coordination
So what I wanted/expected was a coordinated strike of approx 100 LB with 15-20 fighters. Instead I lost a bunch of LB.
LoBaron - where do you get the information from your PS that those are the complete factors and that they are all weighted the same? I'm not trying to be cofrontational - I just don't know if you are a developer, if you got that info directly from one of the developers, or if this info is based on observation.
Something else that puzzles me when I total up all of the bombers in the different strikes - I don't have that many bombers attacking... FoW is really thick in this turn sequence...
Again - this is from a base 1 hex away flying @ the same altitude. I just don't think coordination was intended to be this complcated (of course I could be wrong...).
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia)
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 68 <----------- no fighters
G4M1 Betty x 46
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 5
Hurricane I Trop x 4
Hurricane IIb Trop x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 3 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged <-- Losses are worse than this - approx 9 by my count
Allied ground losses:
173 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Aircraft Attacking:
22 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
30 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
16 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
25 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
No.14 Sqn RNZAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) <-- Same target as above
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 3
G4M1 Betty x 15 <-- Again no fighters
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 5
Hurricane I Trop x 4
Hurricane IIb Trop x 2
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged <-- looked like 5 losses to me in this attack
Allied ground losses:
24 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
No.14 Sqn RNZAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 150th RAC Regiment, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) <-- Different unit - does this matter?
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2 <-- Now I have fighters - but only 2 of an airgroup of 27..
G3M3 Nell x 27
G4M1 Betty x 20
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 5
Hurricane I Trop x 2
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 damaged <-- I think I lost 2 here
Allied aircraft losses
Martlet II: 1 destroyed
Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Aircraft Attacking:
27 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
14 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700
Raid is overhead
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 150th RAC Regiment, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) Why didn't this join the strike above?
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 4
Hurricane I Trop x 1
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged <-- 3 killed from what I saw
Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
13 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300
Raid is overhead
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700
Raid is overhead
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) Same unit as attacks 1 & 2
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 3
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 2
Hurricane I Trop x 1
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged <-- I think I lost two here.
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) Same unit unit as attack 1, 2, & 5
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 11
G4M1 Betty x 11
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 1
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged <-- I think this is right
Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) This was the main unit attacked
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3 <-- 3 zero fly here... 5 of 27 flew during this series of attacks
G3M3 Nell x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied ground losses:
9 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
LoBaron - where do you get the information from your PS that those are the complete factors and that they are all weighted the same? I'm not trying to be cofrontational - I just don't know if you are a developer, if you got that info directly from one of the developers, or if this info is based on observation.
Something else that puzzles me when I total up all of the bombers in the different strikes - I don't have that many bombers attacking... FoW is really thick in this turn sequence...
Again - this is from a base 1 hex away flying @ the same altitude. I just don't think coordination was intended to be this complcated (of course I could be wrong...).
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia)
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 68 <----------- no fighters
G4M1 Betty x 46
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 5
Hurricane I Trop x 4
Hurricane IIb Trop x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 3 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged <-- Losses are worse than this - approx 9 by my count
Allied ground losses:
173 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Aircraft Attacking:
22 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
30 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
16 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
25 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
No.14 Sqn RNZAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000 , scrambling fighters to 36000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) <-- Same target as above
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 3
G4M1 Betty x 15 <-- Again no fighters
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 5
Hurricane I Trop x 4
Hurricane IIb Trop x 2
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged <-- looked like 5 losses to me in this attack
Allied ground losses:
24 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
10 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700 , scrambling fighters to 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
No.14 Sqn RNZAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 36000
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 150th RAC Regiment, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) <-- Different unit - does this matter?
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2 <-- Now I have fighters - but only 2 of an airgroup of 27..
G3M3 Nell x 27
G4M1 Betty x 20
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 5
Hurricane I Trop x 2
Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 1 damaged <-- I think I lost 2 here
Allied aircraft losses
Martlet II: 1 destroyed
Allied ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Aircraft Attacking:
27 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
14 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700
Raid is overhead
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 150th RAC Regiment ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 150th RAC Regiment, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) Why didn't this join the strike above?
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 18
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 4
Hurricane I Trop x 1
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged <-- 3 killed from what I saw
Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
13 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 34300
Raid is overhead
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700
Raid is overhead
Also attacking 66th Chinese Corps ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) Same unit as attacks 1 & 2
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 3
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 2
Hurricane I Trop x 1
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged <-- I think I lost two here.
Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
No.261 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29700
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) Same unit unit as attack 1, 2, & 5
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 11
G4M1 Betty x 11
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 1
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged <-- I think this is right
Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34300 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 66th Chinese Corps, at 56,61 (Ayuthia) This was the main unit attacked
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 46 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3 <-- 3 zero fly here... 5 of 27 flew during this series of attacks
G3M3 Nell x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied ground losses:
9 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
TTFN,
Mike
Mike
RE: Air coordination
1EyedJacks no, I am not a dev, I just think I understood the air model quite well.
It is based on observation, but it was at least confirmed indirectly and never opposed by the devs. Also it contains
some simple facts I just took from the manual FWIIW.
I did not ask for a sticky in the war room, if the content was wrong I think it would be somewhere on page 67...
If you want to ask a dev (I´d say probably TheElf would be the right person) if what I write is true, please do so. And I don´t see
your post as critzism, more as a chance to explain.
Regarding your combat report:
One thing at the start:
Weather: Severe storms. Thats a (-) on the coordination list.
The other, much more important thing though is balance of force:
Have you ever tried to envision a group of 27 (in your example much less) fighters to cover a spread out attack formation
of close to 100 bombers? Even IF your strike was coordinated, which I cannot be sure from your combat report alone, in a real enviroment it would have
been impossible for the fighters to protect more than a fraction of the bombers from attacks.
You are not neccesarily witnessing different strikes. More likely you are witnessing 1 strike and the combat replays show different parts of the air battle.
In the old WitP the situation would have looked like this:
One big battle, you see all initial attacks by the CAP repelled by the escort fighters, and only after the escorts have been either dispatched or damage forced
them to return they would have got a shot at the bombers.
This is extremely unrealistic in an plane-filled enviroment with headon speeds of close to 900knots.
Not the best escort would ever be able to prevent more than an extremely small percentage of attacks against the bombers. They would sometimes be able to
draw the CAP into battle, but only if they got lucky and were just in the right position close to the bomber group the CAP decides to attack or by chance just positioned
between the bombers and the attacking fighters.
If not, the only warning for the escorts would be the garbled mayday calls from a couple of miles distance at the other side of the huge bomber formation.
In WitP AE this is simulated, by a simple and effective system:
If your balance of force is off, which is the case in your example, you lose planes because the strike is split in smaller packs. Only for a few of those packs there is fighter
protection, simulating the situation where the CAP was unlucky enough to attack from the wrong direction.
The majority of the attacks against the bombers took place long before the escort was in a position to react.
Now, I cannot comment on your indication that you saw more bombers attack than you actually had, because personally I have never witnessed this.
But please tell me if what I write is understandabl,e because sometimes I doubt I am expressing myself good enough with so many people thinking
they got issues with strike coordination when in fact all they have to do is change their balance of force.
It is based on observation, but it was at least confirmed indirectly and never opposed by the devs. Also it contains
some simple facts I just took from the manual FWIIW.
I did not ask for a sticky in the war room, if the content was wrong I think it would be somewhere on page 67...
If you want to ask a dev (I´d say probably TheElf would be the right person) if what I write is true, please do so. And I don´t see
your post as critzism, more as a chance to explain.
Regarding your combat report:
One thing at the start:
Weather: Severe storms. Thats a (-) on the coordination list.
The other, much more important thing though is balance of force:
Have you ever tried to envision a group of 27 (in your example much less) fighters to cover a spread out attack formation
of close to 100 bombers? Even IF your strike was coordinated, which I cannot be sure from your combat report alone, in a real enviroment it would have
been impossible for the fighters to protect more than a fraction of the bombers from attacks.
You are not neccesarily witnessing different strikes. More likely you are witnessing 1 strike and the combat replays show different parts of the air battle.
In the old WitP the situation would have looked like this:
One big battle, you see all initial attacks by the CAP repelled by the escort fighters, and only after the escorts have been either dispatched or damage forced
them to return they would have got a shot at the bombers.
This is extremely unrealistic in an plane-filled enviroment with headon speeds of close to 900knots.
Not the best escort would ever be able to prevent more than an extremely small percentage of attacks against the bombers. They would sometimes be able to
draw the CAP into battle, but only if they got lucky and were just in the right position close to the bomber group the CAP decides to attack or by chance just positioned
between the bombers and the attacking fighters.
If not, the only warning for the escorts would be the garbled mayday calls from a couple of miles distance at the other side of the huge bomber formation.
In WitP AE this is simulated, by a simple and effective system:
If your balance of force is off, which is the case in your example, you lose planes because the strike is split in smaller packs. Only for a few of those packs there is fighter
protection, simulating the situation where the CAP was unlucky enough to attack from the wrong direction.
The majority of the attacks against the bombers took place long before the escort was in a position to react.
Now, I cannot comment on your indication that you saw more bombers attack than you actually had, because personally I have never witnessed this.
But please tell me if what I write is understandabl,e because sometimes I doubt I am expressing myself good enough with so many people thinking
they got issues with strike coordination when in fact all they have to do is change their balance of force.
RE: Air coordination
One small addition to the explanation above:
The ratio of planes involved is at least as important as number of planes.
CAP gets underestimated by many players who ask what went wrong, when the simple answer is that the ratio of
CAP vs escort was 3:1, or worse, and the number of escorts vs escoerted bombers 1:10.
Forgot to answer a specific question in your post:
The list is in the manual (at least most of it), and it is confirmed by the devs.
I forgot morale - added later- , that was pointed out by SuluSea, which is correct for obvious reasons.
The ratio of planes involved is at least as important as number of planes.
CAP gets underestimated by many players who ask what went wrong, when the simple answer is that the ratio of
CAP vs escort was 3:1, or worse, and the number of escorts vs escoerted bombers 1:10.
Forgot to answer a specific question in your post:
The list is in the manual (at least most of it), and it is confirmed by the devs.
I forgot morale - added later- , that was pointed out by SuluSea, which is correct for obvious reasons.
RE: Air coordination
I have found this to be a most interesting thread.
" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley
RE: Air coordination
Lobaron, the issue with that general thought is that the same CAP planes will intercept each of the strikes. IMHO your thoughts are great but then my enemies have 5x the number of planes on CAP than at the base (assuming the same plane can't be at all 7 bomber groups at the same time)
I kinda don't mind the CAP intercepting each of 4 different sweep missions though. Results in decimation for the defenders.
I kinda don't mind the CAP intercepting each of 4 different sweep missions though. Results in decimation for the defenders.
-
1EyedJacks
- Posts: 2304
- Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:26 am
- Location: Reno, NV
RE: Air coordination
I've spent some time trying to search with the blasted search engine provided... Very frustrating...
Altitude seems to be a primary factor per TheElf. Altitude was one of the three factors in the manual regarding coordinating strikes (see 7.2.1.11 in the manual).
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2313369
Also, I sent a personal invite to both TheElf & Michaelm in hopes they might share some insight.
If it makes sense to move bombers under the same command then I'll do it. If it requires a specific skillset for a leader then I'll make sure I have leaders with the right skillset. I'm just a wee bit frustrated with the lack of control I have. I wish to end my ignorance and seek knowledge... <wry grin>
Ttfn,
Mike
Altitude seems to be a primary factor per TheElf. Altitude was one of the three factors in the manual regarding coordinating strikes (see 7.2.1.11 in the manual).
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2313369
Also, I sent a personal invite to both TheElf & Michaelm in hopes they might share some insight.
If it makes sense to move bombers under the same command then I'll do it. If it requires a specific skillset for a leader then I'll make sure I have leaders with the right skillset. I'm just a wee bit frustrated with the lack of control I have. I wish to end my ignorance and seek knowledge... <wry grin>
Ttfn,
Mike
TTFN,
Mike
Mike
RE: Air coordination
Yes, altitude is the governing value for coordination.
This is why I put emphasis on it in the coordination guide.
Without setting the planes involved to the same altitude the game engine does not even know you want to coordinate.
This is why I put emphasis on it in the coordination guide.
Without setting the planes involved to the same altitude the game engine does not even know you want to coordinate.
RE: Air coordination
ORIGINAL: zace
Lobaron, the issue with that general thought is that the same CAP planes will intercept each of the strikes. IMHO your thoughts are great but then my enemies have 5x the number of planes on CAP than at the base (assuming the same plane can't be at all 7 bomber groups at the same time)
I kinda don't mind the CAP intercepting each of 4 different sweep missions though. Results in decimation for the defenders.
zace from where do you pull the information that 5 times the CAP is available compared to what should be?
If it is the combat report or the plane numbers listed below the CAP fighters in the combat replay, you are looking at the wrong numbers.
Both show a FOW alienated total of the available planes for interception, not the part of the group that is actually attacking in the
specific combat replay shown.
The number of planes actually involved in the current combat replay is usually much lower and can (on CAP side) only be determined
through watching the combat animations or if you understand where to look in the combat report, where you can get an estimate.
When you look at at my sweep example in post #6 (1EyedJacks example is also valid but its more complex) you see there were 2 combat animations.
What you see in the numbers listed is how many fighters where in theory available when the sweep was detected.
Just that this is the number that could get into action against the sweep if nothing else happens.
To be more specific:
Combat replay #1:
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 18
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 22
These were the planes potentially available for intercept in time of detection.
It does not tell you what they currently are doing. It does not tell you if they are engaged somewhere else or
whether they are on standby or part of the airborne CAP.
Your get a bit more information out of this below:
CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 8 on standby, 6 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
This means: 12 fighters are vectored on the detected sweep. Only 4 of those planes are already in the air
and will reach the sweep first.
The rest of the planes is either scrambling or still on the ground either already assigned to scramble or not
even vectored on the strike yet.
Combat replay #2:
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 20
Again: this is the number of planes potentially available. Deducted is just the number of planes that either have been
shot down or received battle damage to force them RTB and are out of combat because of the damage.
Now look below:
CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
This shows you something important: at the time of the second detection no planes are immediately
available for the intercept. 12 planes are in the air but those are most probably engaged or reforming from the first battle
and not able to react to the second intercept.
When watching the combat replay it was obvious that only 1 or 2 Zeros even were able to make runs against this sweep.
And they were not available at time of contact.
Where they came from is harder to tell but from what I rember is that they were survivors from the first engagements
either RTB and engaged by the excorts or trying for another final attack run on the sweep but personally I believe the former.
The weight of the second battle was mostly fought by the Oscars which, at the time where not fully engaged in combat anymore
or still had reserves on the ground:
84th I.F.Chutai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
64th Sentai Det with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
You see? The replay displays the actual engagements, the combat report tells you the situation at the time of detection
and the situation after combat, but not much about the pitched air battle in between.
Only by watching both you get a clear picture.
RE: Air coordination
Actually chances are high that both combats either happened at the same time or overlapped.
There is just no possibility in the game to show this.
There is just no possibility in the game to show this.
RE: Air coordination
Stuman, thanks, if you like to chime in please do so. I think this is a chance to clearify the air combat model
once and for all. [:)]
once and for all. [:)]
RE: Air coordination
I've always found your explanation clear and useful. Your coordination guide works for me. I think anyone not using it does so at their own peril ...
Pax