Production-trying to understand?

[Cad908]

Situation, March 42 as Soviets v AI. I am looking at my manpower pool, and it never builds yet I have 120k plus rifle squads (new version) and 80k of the (old version) rifle squads-.

[Cad908]

Yet, here is a typical infantry division. Note the experience differential between the new and old version of the rifle squads. That is almost a 20 point difference, which is rather significant.

I understand that the experience will rise over time, but it seems to me that the program is taking "veteran" squads out and adding "rookie" "upgraded" ones in their place.

What happens to the old rifle squads? Are they converted to the new version and in the process lose 20 plus points of experience? I have been watching this for several weeks, and it just seems off to me.

I have read over the production section of the manual again, I think I understand it, but this has me kind of confused.

Any help appreciated

Thank you

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

When hard pressed the manpower for the soviets is always empty... this is normal... your demand is simply too big...

As for "Rifle Squad" and "Rifle Squad (-)" they are in production simultaneously for some time - the TOE changes at certain time (this is gradual process) and Soviet units change their infantry "parts"...

The surplus "Rifle Squad" will be back at pool - but since many other units (i.e. this is gradual change) are still taking "Rifle Squad" they will be soon gone from pool...

Please note that production is demand driven - more you need the production tries to adapt automatically!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
The production in WitE is very very very complex... [;)]

[Cad908]

Leo,

Thanks for your reply, the lack of population in the pool worried me, especially as I thought ahead to 1943.

The experience differential still bothers me a little. The 38th Guards is a veteran unit with a moral of 74. It is getting filled up with 30ish experience "new" squads and dropping in CV. It just does not "feel" correct to me. Especially with infantry squads, as they are upgraded with better equipment, shouldn't they improve?

Thanks

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Cad908

Leo,

Thanks for your reply, the lack of population in the pool worried me, especially as I thought ahead to 1943.

The experience differential still bothers me a little. The 38th Guards is a veteran unit with a moral of 74. It is getting filled up with 30ish experience "new" squads and dropping in CV. It just does not "feel" correct to me. Especially with infantry squads, as they are upgraded with better equipment, shouldn't they improve?

Thanks

Replacements are coming with EXP +/- around the EXP set for the warring side and year... it doesn't matter if you have Elite unit... the replacements are the same for all...

BTW infantry squads alter quite a lot in game - please note that some changes are not for the better (i.e. better equipment)... [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[jomni]

Being an Elite unit does not necessarily mean all soldiers are fierce fighting men who have seen battle.

Experience increases when they see combat.  Unless you honestly believe that the replacements they send to these elite units are all veterans. Where would they get these veterans from? From other units? If this is the case then you should do a 'merge' command instead of waiting for fresh recruits to preserve experience.

Historically, even the SS were also stuffed with fresh recuits (sometimes having minimal or no training) near the end of the war.

[Cad908]

Jomni,

I am not well versed in the Soviet replacement system, though somewhat with the American and German doctrines, but it is not really what I was driving at.

If a unit, Guard or not, is involved in heavy combat and loses lets say 50% of its infantry component, then yes I would expect the replacements to be of much lower caliber that the surviving veterans. Those veterans, though, would still be assigned to the formation and would likely help bring the replacements up to speed quicker that a newly organized division would. I think this is where moral would help out within the WITE system, as I understand it. Doesn't element experience tend to rise toward unit moral? (manual pg 166)

Now, my issue should have been phrased better, as I look at it more. For example, lets say the 38th Guards Division I posted about, was behind the lines refitting. The system comes along and converts its TOE to a later mode. The TOE change moves some squads (and other equipment) out and others into the division over time to meet its new model. The men that were in the division before the TOE change are the same after, only they have somewhat differing equipment. Even though they have not fired one shot in combat, the TOE model brings in recruit level squads to replace the veterans at a much lower experience level. Further, the veterans that were at experience 57 (38th Guards) go into the pool and are sent out to other units as replacements at recruit level experience somewhere in the 30s. If I understand Apollo's response, that is in fact what will happen. Would this not hold true for tanks and other equipment also. So when the T-34/85's come on line and go to an existing tank unit, the same crew would man them. Thus they could lose 20 + experience by switching to better equipment.

It seems to me that the TOE changes that are integral to the WITE system would be constantly driving down element experience outside of any combat.

Thanks

[Baron von Beer]

That was what I was reading. I could see a reduction in the case of something radically new (PzIII -> Panther or something) but still I would think more along the lines of (x2 orig exp + recruit exp)/3 or something.  Enough to say it's new to us but not we were the best in the nation and now were as clueless as the guy who just came out of basic.

[jomni]

Ah, I see that too!  In my upgrading of the Soviet Air Force, I arrange the units by experience.  If I find good experience units with old planes, I manually change them to something more modern.  But after that, their experience has lowered.  That can be rationalized as saying that they need to get used to the new plane first. 

As with TOE changes for infantry, it is a bit strange.  But some guy can just rationalize it and say that new TOE requires new tactics and they have to learn and practice with the new weapons.

[randallw]

It certainly is a bit odd how the swapout results occur; if the new equipment is not being used by the troops already there, which is in line with the low experience of the new pieces, then those men should go back into the force pool......but units in the force pool are all considered raw.