Anyon listening...Hello Matrix?

[madgamer2]

Let us just say for a second that you have designed a historical east front game. I maintain that what most players want are some of the great things Gary has come up with and has advanced war game design by leaps and bounds. Is anyone hearing some of the great idea that will make a better game but will cause it to loose a little historical flavor.
What if the shoe was on the other foot and some of the things that happened did not happen? The results of a huge battle for the eastern front could have turned out totally different and if they had would you have designed the game to those "historical outcomes?
One thing about Gary's games that i thought I learned was battles are a crap shoot. All one needs to do is look at the awesome combat model he designed for his American Civil War to see that. Why not allow both players to use those AP points to create a game that may or may not turn out historical.
I see a game here where hind sight is the best friend the Russians have and they can use and build on it. The Germans if they make a serious mistake at the start they are toast. Hind sight for them is knowing the blizzard is coming knowing that no matter what 1,000,000 men are gone. Many of the suggestions by the players are good ones. I think the reason is that they have not lived slept,thought nothing but this game for several years like the testers.
Many will say that i have no right to say what I am in this thread because I have not moved one counter or played the tutorial. I have read every single word on this forum every day from the day it started till today. So what gives me the right to make suggestions? I come from having some 30 years in theater as an actor, technician, singer songwriter, guitar player, in front of the the stage light and from behind them. There is one very noticeable but shuttle thing that can happen. When you spend som much time ,energy,sleepless nights, doubt and a desire to create something that has never been there is a danger of being to close to the thing you are creating. Matrix unlike many game companies that have fallen away at least listens to the players.
I believe like the big guy has said that in 6 months we will have a great game. I see this game being to close to history. I also see for many that is not bad as that is what they want. What I am saying from a distance is go ahead and keep that but put in some more options, add more random factors. If you are the German or the Russian and you did not know if or when or even not at all that a certain even will or will not happen or not in the way it did they, the German, could not say well Here is the first blizzard turn ...Or what if Stalin did not have the Purge or if the invasion started when it was supposed to.

I guess what it comes down to is I find a historical game that has enough hard code to keep it that way no matter what either side does you get the same historical result not that interesting.What would be interesting to me is to do it in a total different way. Whatever is done the game needs to be more of a crap shoot have more unexpected events. Now this is a human to human game. As many have told me You can have a great single player game but once you play human to human its not ever the same and there is no going back. Even if I just play the computer and have a fun game that is all I want and who knows I may even try a PBRM game if I can find some player who is as new and bad as me and I would even let him play the Russians.

There will never be another East Front game like this one because Gary is the best and has been in every other game he designed and I hope he just adds a few little what if touchs and makes some of the changes the players seem to want.


Madgamer2

[Crimguy]

ORIGINAL: madgamer2
I come from having some 30 years in theater as an actor, technician, singer songwriter, guitar player, in front of the the stage light and from behind them.

Madgamer2

My suspicians are confirmed. Ladies and Gentleman, Robert Guillaume IS a wargamer!!

Just kidding of course. [:D] I don't disagree with you in some respects. There should be literally dozens of weather options, including "the mildest Winter the CCCP ever experienced."

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

Let us just say for a second that you have designed a historical east front game. I maintain that what most players want are some of the great things Gary has come up with and has advanced war game design by leaps and bounds. Is anyone hearing some of the great idea that will make a better game but will cause it to loose a little historical flavor.
What if the shoe was on the other foot and some of the things that happened did not happen? The results of a huge battle for the eastern front could have turned out totally different and if they had would you have designed the game to those "historical outcomes?
One thing about Gary's games that i thought I learned was battles are a crap shoot. All one needs to do is look at the awesome combat model he designed for his American Civil War to see that. Why not allow both players to use those AP points to create a game that may or may not turn out historical.
I see a game here where hind sight is the best friend the Russians have and they can use and build on it. The Germans if they make a serious mistake at the start they are toast. Hind sight for them is knowing the blizzard is coming knowing that no matter what 1,000,000 men are gone. Many of the suggestions by the players are good ones. I think the reason is that they have not lived slept,thought nothing but this game for several years like the testers.
Many will say that i have no right to say what I am in this thread because I have not moved one counter or played the tutorial. I have read every single word on this forum every day from the day it started till today. So what gives me the right to make suggestions? I come from having some 30 years in theater as an actor, technician, singer songwriter, guitar player, in front of the the stage light and from behind them. There is one very noticeable but shuttle thing that can happen. When you spend som much time ,energy,sleepless nights, doubt and a desire to create something that has never been there is a danger of being to close to the thing you are creating. Matrix unlike many game companies that have fallen away at least listens to the players.
I believe like the big guy has said that in 6 months we will have a great game. I see this game being to close to history. I also see for many that is not bad as that is what they want. What I am saying from a distance is go ahead and keep that but put in some more options, add more random factors. If you are the German or the Russian and you did not know if or when or even not at all that a certain even will or will not happen or not in the way it did they, the German, could not say well Here is the first blizzard turn ...Or what if Stalin did not have the Purge or if the invasion started when it was supposed to.

I guess what it comes down to is I find a historical game that has enough hard code to keep it that way no matter what either side does you get the same historical result not that interesting.What would be interesting to me is to do it in a total different way. Whatever is done the game needs to be more of a crap shoot have more unexpected events. Now this is a human to human game. As many have told me You can have a great single player game but once you play human to human its not ever the same and there is no going back. Even if I just play the computer and have a fun game that is all I want and who knows I may even try a PBRM game if I can find some player who is as new and bad as me and I would even let him play the Russians.

There will never be another East Front game like this one because Gary is the best and has been in every other game he designed and I hope he just adds a few little what if touchs and makes some of the changes the players seem to want.


Madgamer2

Thumbs up !

[shane56]

agree as well..
I believe that the historical games will be worn out in a year, and that what if's will be the go..
I have hundreds of books on the eastern front, so I know in intimate detail how the historicals will go, so what's needed is what if games to provide an unknown challenge in a different direction. The eastern front can provide boundless possibilities here and all within the realms of them being possible from a historical perspective..
BUT what the what if games really need, is no hard coding of any sort to be present in the game limiting these what if scenarios to historical paths, otherwise it's a pointless exercise..

Sooo.. remove the hardcoding and free up the game from rigid historical paths, by allowing us more options/choices at the beginning of the game and/or in the editor.. shane

[JeffroK]

I'd half agree / half disagree.

This is a game representing the Soviets Great Patriotic War.

Therefore it should represent as close as possible the historical options available to both sides, it isnt "Chess on the Steppes".

However, with the editor, you can provide ahistorical scenarios to suit your own personal wants. It would be interesting to look into what if - The winter was milder or the Wermacht better prepared, if Stalin hadnt murdered or put his commanders into Gulags. What if the Pzkw V was a lemon so the Panzers had to soldier on with the Mk IV or the T34 arrived 12 mths later.

These scenarios are not why I buy the game, but add value in being able to tweak it to suit my version of war in the east. I have also found that despite their best efforts, the devs miss/leave out something I want to add. Its why I whinge on the EDBTR forum about a lack of an editor.

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

Let us just say for a second that you have designed a historical east front game. I maintain that what most players want are some of the great things Gary has come up with and has advanced war game design by leaps and bounds. Is anyone hearing some of the great idea that will make a better game but will cause it to loose a little historical flavor.
What if the shoe was on the other foot and some of the things that happened did not happen? The results of a huge battle for the eastern front could have turned out totally different and if they had would you have designed the game to those "historical outcomes?
One thing about Gary's games that i thought I learned was battles are a crap shoot. All one needs to do is look at the awesome combat model he designed for his American Civil War to see that. Why not allow both players to use those AP points to create a game that may or may not turn out historical.
I see a game here where hind sight is the best friend the Russians have and they can use and build on it. The Germans if they make a serious mistake at the start they are toast. Hind sight for them is knowing the blizzard is coming knowing that no matter what 1,000,000 men are gone. Many of the suggestions by the players are good ones. I think the reason is that they have not lived slept,thought nothing but this game for several years like the testers.
Many will say that i have no right to say what I am in this thread because I have not moved one counter or played the tutorial. I have read every single word on this forum every day from the day it started till today. So what gives me the right to make suggestions? I come from having some 30 years in theater as an actor, technician, singer songwriter, guitar player, in front of the the stage light and from behind them. There is one very noticeable but shuttle thing that can happen. When you spend som much time ,energy,sleepless nights, doubt and a desire to create something that has never been there is a danger of being to close to the thing you are creating. Matrix unlike many game companies that have fallen away at least listens to the players.
I believe like the big guy has said that in 6 months we will have a great game. I see this game being to close to history. I also see for many that is not bad as that is what they want. What I am saying from a distance is go ahead and keep that but put in some more options, add more random factors. If you are the German or the Russian and you did not know if or when or even not at all that a certain even will or will not happen or not in the way it did they, the German, could not say well Here is the first blizzard turn ...Or what if Stalin did not have the Purge or if the invasion started when it was supposed to.

I guess what it comes down to is I find a historical game that has enough hard code to keep it that way no matter what either side does you get the same historical result not that interesting.What would be interesting to me is to do it in a total different way. Whatever is done the game needs to be more of a crap shoot have more unexpected events. Now this is a human to human game. As many have told me You can have a great single player game but once you play human to human its not ever the same and there is no going back. Even if I just play the computer and have a fun game that is all I want and who knows I may even try a PBRM game if I can find some player who is as new and bad as me and I would even let him play the Russians.

There will never be another East Front game like this one because Gary is the best and has been in every other game he designed and I hope he just adds a few little what if touchs and makes some of the changes the players seem to want.


Madgamer2

fully agree with this

[janh]

ORIGINAL: madgamer2

There will never be another East Front game like this one because Gary is the best and has been in every other game he designed and I hope he just adds a few little what if touchs and makes some of the changes the players seem to want.

Madgamer2

Agree, there should me more variation and less possibility of hind sight planning that did not historically occur to such degree like the weather/blizzard, withdrawal/reinforcement schedules (or building support units) etc. The AARs that are going on now are clearly partially shaped by knowing those dates and things, which gives me an "unreal" feeling about it. Within a weeks time frame knowing a "rough" weather report and planning for it is fine, but planning 6 turns ahead for the upcoming blizzard...?

Somehow I am left to wonder why Gary and Co implement so much more space for variation (and detail in the air model, production etc.) in WiTP, which gives this game a lot additional depth (in terms of trying new "what-ifs", i.e. in terms of playing fun), and went away from that for WitE?

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Guys... the 2By3 (developers), Matrix (producers) and ALPHA/BETA testers read the public WitE posts here - don't worry about that at all! [:)]

Also interesting things posted here (including problems and ideas) we debate in detail in developers forum (and Gary and Joel and Erik and others talk it over in voice)...


Leo "Apollo11"

[timmyab]

A big thumbs up here for "what ifs"
Quick one off the top of my head.What if the Japanese had invaded and the Siberians had never shown up in December 1941.
I would also love to see the weather system modelled so that there's far less certainty for both sides.What happened in the winter of 41-42 was pretty much a worst case scenario for the Axis, although I believe that 40-41 was also unusually harsh.As the weather can have such an effect on the outcome of a game, maybe it could be linked to a variable victory points system according to an average of which side the weather has favoured up to date.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I'd half agree / half disagree.

This is a game representing the Soviets Great Patriotic War.

Therefore it should represent as close as possible the historical options available to both sides, it isnt "Chess on the Steppes".

However, with the editor, you can provide ahistorical scenarios to suit your own personal wants. It would be interesting to look into what if - The winter was milder or the Wermacht better prepared, if Stalin hadnt murdered or put his commanders into Gulags. What if the Pzkw V was a lemon so the Panzers had to soldier on with the Mk IV or the T34 arrived 12 mths later.

These scenarios are not why I buy the game, but add value in being able to tweak it to suit my version of war in the east. I have also found that despite their best efforts, the devs miss/leave out something I want to add. Its why I whinge on the EDBTR forum about a lack of an editor.

+ Exactly right, IMO. If you're building a simulation of the war in the east, there's a basic requirement for it to play out somewhat in line with the actual war if you use default settings and the stock scenarios.

A good editor and the options screens are where you would get the longevity (countless variations to dispositions, weather, start lines, objectives, etc.) which is why an editor is so important. Without one, you lose the fan base pretty quickly.

However, you can't start off with a fantasy set-up and call it a representation of WW2. You'd have to call it "Plan Orange" or something like that... You have to start with as realistic a set up as possible.

[Wikingus]

I'm not a huge fan of "what-if" history to be honest. History is history, and it happened the way it did for a reason. I'm all in favour of including what-if options and chances of randomness, but only as an option, and as long as the game itself doesn't sacrifice historical accuracy in order for this to be possible.

[cookie monster]

I think some more scenarios would be great.

I hear they have some they are testing.

In WITP AE they have scenario 2 which has a better prepared Japan.

In WITE a better prepared Axis with winter clothing would be a great scenario addition.

Plus a WITE Ironman scenario where the Russians aren't deployed so far forward, and are stationed in Russia pre Poland takeover.

Some more heavy woods terrain would be good also.

In the main areas the only heavy woods I can see is by Finland.

There must be some forests around???

[TulliusDetritus]

The problem with a what-if scenario is that the first winter rule is hard-coded, I think they said. So, how to prevent the death of many German troops?

I think they will end up making this sort of scenario to make everyone happy. To each his own [8D]

[raizer]

I still think the exact knowledge of the weather makes the game too easy for both sides to plan.  The weather shouldnt be totally random, but if there were another option to just vary it a few weeks, would make a big difference imho.  

[Muzrub]

I agree with the OP.

I've always the game should have had an option for 'pure' historical, and another option to allow the player more freedom (not freakin' space lasers!), just a little more room to move.

[kfmiller41]

One revision I have always wondered about was if Germany had not had to invade Yugoslavia in April and Barbarossa had started when it was planned to in May. 4 extra weeks would have been a huge advantage and was well within the historical "what if" possibilities. I am hoping that gets made by someone as it would be very interesting to see how it played out.

[madgamer2]

[quote]ORIGINAL: JeffK

I'd half agree / half disagree.

This is a game representing the Soviets Great Patriotic War.

Therefore it should represent as close as possible the historical options available to both sides, it isnt "Chess on the Steppes".

However, with the editor, you can provide ahistorical scenarios to suit your own personal wants. It would be interesting to look into what if - The winter was milder or the Wermacht better prepared, if Stalin hadnt murdered or put his commanders into Gulags. What if the Pzkw V was a lemon so the Panzers had to soldier on with the Mk IV or the T34 arrived 12 mths later.

These scenarios are not why I buy the game, but add value in being able to tweak it to suit my version of war in the east. I have also found that despite their best efforts, the devs miss/leave out something I want to add. Its why I whinge on the EDBTR forum about a lack of an editor.

Let me put it a little differently. Starting with the first shot till the eagle get blown to bits it that famous bit of war film certain things happened in a particular order but getting from the start of the to the end could have happened many different ways and I think that if the game turns out to be historical it should not be because there are design elements in the game that force such an end. The one thing that Gary does better than many designers is create that uncertain element that can go many ways but still be historical.
In this game it is not so easy to accomplish because of its huge size. he has done so many things right. I hope he can come to a point where the historical and the gamers will both be happy. Perhaps the key lies partly in the use of the Admin points and letting the player make trade offs to see where a different path might have taken the war for either or both sides.
As the big guy say we still have lots of work ahead and I still have to face my firs winter, but this game will be awesome if we work together which is the thing that separates Matrix games and there company a cut above. Perhaps what it comes down to is the development team and testers give us the tools to mold something special.

Madgamer2

[PeeDeeAitch]

ORIGINAL: miller41

One revision I have always wondered about was if Germany had not had to invade Yugoslavia in April and Barbarossa had started when it was planned to in May. 4 extra weeks would have been a huge advantage and was well within the historical "what if" possibilities. I am hoping that gets made by someone as it would be very interesting to see how it played out.

Likely not well, as the spring muddy season came late in 1941...

[madgamer2]

ORIGINAL: Crimguy

ORIGINAL: madgamer2
I come from having some 30 years in theater as an actor, technician, singer songwriter, guitar player, in front of the the stage light and from behind them.

Madgamer2

My suspicians are confirmed. Ladies and Gentleman, Robert Guillaume IS a wargamer!!

Just kidding of course. [:D] I don't disagree with you in some respects. There should be literally dozens of weather options, including "the mildest Winter the CCCP ever experienced."

ROBERT.....who????? The down side to some of what I said could be an invitation to the total control over everything players bringing up all kins of suggestions for :Whast if" games which would be very bad. I have faith things will work out.

Madgamer2

[AKCLIMBER]

Another vote for more "what if" and variable options. I'd love the following options (recognizing that I've no idea how hard they would be to code and may be completely unrealistic): (1) mild, normal, severe/historically accurate winter; (2) AI Soviet defense choices of Stalin's "Don't give an inch" strategy or a fighting withdrawal/land for time strategy; (3) Japan invades or not; (4) originally planned start date for Germans or not; (5) other stuff I've thought of and can't remember right now

Cheers!