Game Has Serious Problems

[Rugens]

I would first want to say that this is a groundbreaking game with many positive points. At the same time though it appears to have some serious problems. The two main issues I see from the game system are an inability for the Germans to create pockets after the first few turns, and an ability the game gives a good Soviet player to execute on a regular basis attacks resulting in retreat against significant German stacks. Both issues have been discussed since the early days of the game in this forum but I've seen no changes to really address the issues. If anything the changes made seem to take the game in the wrong direction.

[Klydon]

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

[mmarquo]

Carl,
 
I regularly put 3.5 - 4 million Soviets out of commission by the winter; there are ways to pocket huge quantities of Soviets; as for Soviet couterattacks in 1941 - it may be hard against a stacked corps, but it can be done against single divisions.
 
Marquo 

[paullus99]

No Red Army player is going to nail his own troops to the ground & let you just continually encircle & annihilate them. Also, historically the Red Army was able to make a bloody mess when they were able to pull enough troops together (the Battle of Smolensk is a perfect example).

[WilliePete]

I agree that its entirely dependent on the player's skill. A decent Soviet player should be able to pull out and do other actions to keep him from getting surrounded. However, like to Soviet player having options to avoid disaster, I also feel that the German player should have options in place when it comes to the first winter.

The Germans should have on the table certain choices in whether they are given a way to ride the winter out without the devestating loses or decide to go for broke and risk the loses to obtain a certain objective. It should not be a one way result the way it is now.

[GBS]

I play the AI as the Germans for these very reasons. I am currently in Sept. 11, 1941 and am looking at over 50 encircled soviet units in the North and Central. That's turn 12 or 13 I think. So it can be done. I think the AI plays the USSR more realisticly than a good human player. But that is only my opinion, nothing more. "Advance to the rear". To me....boring.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+1

There is 1 additional factor re encirclements. Germans have to prepare and plan properly to get them after the initial onslaught. My last PBEM I created a secure pocket of 42 Russian divisions on last clear turn but it took 1 turn of prep then 2 of execution by 3 pannzer groups and nearly 3 inf armies and it was a very close run thing. It was enough to make my opponent surrender after he failed to break it.

Personally I think that's a credit to the game design as I was playing someone decent.

[PeeDeeAitch]

I agree with those who say it is about learning. The German side is the tougher to play and execute properly. As we have seen, the smaller "slice off a chunk" encirclements are often broken by counter-attack, and it take preparation and planning to actually make a large isolation. It can be done, but it doesn't just happen. The game is fairly easy to move tanks around, it is harder to finesse and make multi-turn operations work sufficiently well to cause the damage needed.

[RCHarmon]

I have had complaints about the length of the first blizzard, etc, but I do not believe the game to be broken.  

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+2

Truly, I get more fed up with German players displacing their own poor performance onto the game than with the game's admitted problems. The fact that the Russians can effectively counter-attack in summer 1941 and the Germans likewise later in the war, is a triumph over more primitive systems which generalise all exceptions out of the game. The Germans did so well in 1941 in large part because they were experienced in a superior doctrine to that of their adversary. If you're not experienced as the German player, you shoudn't do well. Go learn how to play!

[Commanderski]

I do have to say that the game requires more planning and forethought than most people realize. I had a campaign going against the AI in normal and had over 30 divisions almost encircled around Smolensk. It was still opened in the North or top part. I was set to complete the circle on my next turn. During the AI's turn I heard trains and when it came back to my turn every one of them was gone. They took the last train to Moscow...[:)] The AI just doesn't sit and wait around to be eliminated, as it shouldn't.

The AI may not counter attack as much as some would like but it makes up for it by getting in your way to make you attack. You don't know if you are attacking an understrength or shell of a divison or one at full strength.

[carnifex]

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

I would first want to say that this is a groundbreaking game with many positive points. At the same time though it appears to have some serious problems. The two main issues I see from the game system are an inability for the Germans to create pockets after the first few turns, and an ability the game gives a good Soviet player to execute on a regular basis attacks resulting in retreat against significant German stacks. Both issues have been discussed since the early days of the game in this forum but I've seen no changes to really address the issues. If anything the changes made seem to take the game in the wrong direction.

Are you saying these are the two serious problems that you have encountered during your game sessions, or are you saying these two things seem to be the issues that a lot of people are complaining about when you go to the forums and read various threads?

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Carl Rugenstein

I would first want to say that this is a groundbreaking game with many positive points. At the same time though it appears to have some serious problems. The two main issues I see from the game system are an inability for the Germans to create pockets after the first few turns, and an ability the game gives a good Soviet player to execute on a regular basis attacks resulting in retreat against significant German stacks. Both issues have been discussed since the early days of the game in this forum but I've seen no changes to really address the issues. If anything the changes made seem to take the game in the wrong direction.

In my exerience there are no problems with creating pockets later in the game, even in 1942. You only have to take more care to make them leak proof and not bite over more than you can chew. As for Soviet counterattacks, sure, they are possible in 1941 against a German that sticks his neck out too far, and I feel that is exactly the way it's supposed to be.

I think this is a great game, the one problem it has is the winter of 1941, but I understand that is going to be fixed.

[MengJiao]

ORIGINAL: GBS

I play the AI as the Germans for these very reasons. I am currently in Sept. 11, 1941 and am looking at over 50 encircled soviet units in the North and Central. That's turn 12 or 13 I think. So it can be done. I think the AI plays the USSR more realisticly than a good human player. But that is only my opinion, nothing more. "Advance to the rear". To me....boring.

So the game is really the opposite of broken if the AI plays better than the players.

[Blond_Knight]

I didnt realise I could blame my strategic failings on the AI when it beat me.

[MengJiao]

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

I didnt realise I could blame my strategic failings on the AI when it beat me.

I'm always happy with the game: I only play in 1942 to 1943. The Ai seems pretty snappy to me.

[Encircled]

So playing the AI Soviets "realistically" in '41 is a challenge?

Er, no it isn't

Its an exercise that you do once to get the hang of the game and thats it

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

So playing the AI Soviets "realistically" in '41 is a challenge?

Er, no it isn't

Have you tried it on Challenging? Things change a bit.

[ool]

ORIGINAL: Mehring

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+2

Truly, I get more fed up with German players displacing their own poor performance onto the game than with the game's admitted problems. The fact that the Russians can effectively counter-attack in summer 1941 and the Germans likewise later in the war, is a triumph over more primitive systems which generalise all exceptions out of the game. The Germans did so well in 1941 in large part because they were experienced in a superior doctrine to that of their adversary. If you're not experienced as the German player, you shoudn't do well. Go learn how to play!

AMEN! The amount of German player "whineritis" in this forum is pathetic. Matrix changes this game much further why even bother putting it out if you lose the historical accuracy? Fully agree with Mehring, learn how to plat the game. Plenty of first person shooter games around if you want to win right out of the box without thinking or planning.

[Knavery]

ORIGINAL: ool

ORIGINAL: Mehring

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Well, instead of blaming the game, perhaps look at the players. Most Russians are just not going to allow the Germans to encircle at will or even make it easy for them. Should the game make it so that can happen? Doesn't make much sense. I have been watching all the AAR's and while there is the occasional counter attack that causes the Germans to retreat, this did happen in the real campaign in several spots during the 1941 campaign.

Overall, the game may have some issues with the winter, but I don't share your opinion on the encirclement or retreats as being a fault of the game.

+2

Truly, I get more fed up with German players displacing their own poor performance onto the game than with the game's admitted problems. The fact that the Russians can effectively counter-attack in summer 1941 and the Germans likewise later in the war, is a triumph over more primitive systems which generalise all exceptions out of the game. The Germans did so well in 1941 in large part because they were experienced in a superior doctrine to that of their adversary. If you're not experienced as the German player, you shoudn't do well. Go learn how to play!

AMEN! The amount of German player "whineritis" in this forum is pathetic. Matrix changes this game much further why even bother putting it out if you lose the historical accuracy? Fully agree with Mehring, learn how to plat the game. Plenty of first person shooter games around if you want to win right out of the box without thinking or planning.

I hear this argument a lot--that it's historically accurate if A, B, or C happens, so learn how to play the game. By that logic, there can only be one outcome. So why even bother playing? It then becomes more of an exercise to replicate what the German and Soviet forces did in the war. If you've mastered that, and can't change the outcome, there's nothing left in the game for you.