Future development

[JudgeDredd]

Having been involved in the latest "cost" thread for Panzer Corps and having gone through some old threads relating to price of this game, one of the points mentioned re the high release cost was maintaining the ability to create software for the developer - and so, having charged such a high price for that sofware (and losing my impulse buy and many others) I was wondering....is there further development to come from Panther Games?

I'd also like to ask, though I know I won't be told - but I'll ask anyway - did sales do well enough for you to proceed with another project? Also, did "abstenance" (on my part and many others?) prevail and make you think further and more sensibly regarding your future pricing structure? I sure do hope so...at the very least, if not, then I would like Matrix Games to have learned their lesson from that fiasco by NOT keeping consumers in the dark re price until the last minute...

As I said in another thread, you lost my "impulse" sale on release of BftB because of price (and that might have been avoided had you informed us what it was going to cost) and after release I still haven't bought the game...I realise that's only £70 (at release) that you lost from me...a drop in the ocean I guess...but I wonder how many others still haven't bought the title becuas ethey lost the "impulse" to buy?

Regardless....I'm not posting to hear the justifications or otherwise - I was just wanting to know if your pricing structure for that game and that developer worked out hence keeping them employed and creating a new game?? If so - great - but any news on the new game?

[Arjuna]

JudgeDredd,

Thanks for the post. I appreciate your good intent.

Sales of BFTB have been a bit above COTA and that is what I expected. Some may say that raisning the price cost us sales. But so far, that doesn't seem to be the case. For every one we lost we seemed to have picked up another. What has happened though is that we received more money for our efforts and for that I am very pleased.

As to the future, well as you are probably aware both Paul and I have been only working part time on game development for some time now. I finished a defence contract and was able to work full time on the game again this last month. We will be putting out a second patch for BFTB soon, hopefully within a month. Richard hopes to finish off the design of the new HTTR scenarios for the HTTR expansion pack next week. This will require BFTB. We'lll need to test these but hopefully we can release it in a couple of months.

We have also kick started a new East Front development. This will be a new game with new features, focussing primarily on Soviet doctrine. I won't hazard a guess as to when it will be ready. That will depend on when I next get a contract and basically how much time we all can put into it.

But we have some new beta testers and with new blood comes new energy and enthusiasm. So all is good. [:)]

[wodin]

JD..they are busy with defnce contracts so i can't see a ne wgame for awhile...plus they have had problems doing the latest patch...as for the pricing..you wont get a answer I'm sure...also raking up flames is could be seen as being ataganistic (bet I spelt that wrong)...that price topic was a year ago now...it's all water under the bridge...and the price was reduced in the end anyway...I doubt they lost loads of sales...as I expect once the price went down a fair few bought it then...so loss revenue wouldn't be that much...I doubt they missed you

[JudgeDredd]

Dave
 
Believe it or not, I'm glad you survived that wee storm.
 
Going through the whole thread from back then it hit home that it was the shock of the price hike that was the initial issue - after that, the impulse had left and I never did buy. I occasionally look at it in the store and I don't know whether it's the initial price that still tastes bitter in my mouth or whether it is still a little high, I don't know - but I still have not picked it up.
 
I hope it hasn't damaged my love for your engine, but I will still likely pass on BftB and wait for you next iteration (as I did when CotA was due so didn't purchase HTTR)
 
Anyway - regardless of what went on, I never wished your company any ill feeling - you have a great product and a great engine - I think the end delivery, promotion and details could've been handled differently - but I am just but one potential customer.
 
I look forward to hearing of a new project and (early warning) of the price [;)]

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
We have also kick started a new East Front development. This will be a new game with new features, focussing primarily on Soviet doctrine. I won't hazard a guess as to when it will be ready...

and that's great news...and I wouldn't expect dates...I remember when CotA was going to be released and it was I think a couple of years AFTEr your estimate...such things exist in the devlopment world.

These are my first posts here in a long time ...so good luck and I will keep an eye out for your new game.

Billy [&o]

[Perturabo]

Good to hear it. It gives me more hope about the future of more sophisticated games.

[chrisol]

ORIGINAL:

As to the future, well as you are probably aware both Paul and I have been only working part time on game development for some time now. I finished a defence contract and was able to work full time on the game again this last month. We will be putting out a second patch for BFTB soon, hopefully within a month. Richard hopes to finish off the design of the new HTTR scenarios for the HTTR expansion pack next week. This will require BFTB. We'lll need to test these but hopefully we can release it in a couple of months.

This sounds like great news... Very much looking forward to a patch for a few final issues noted in the forum and Market Garden Scenarios would be excellent.

Many thanks
Chris

[gabeeg]

Eastern Front....that sounds awesome, very exciting news all around indeed. I was one of those that bitched about the price (though I did admited then that I would probably get it...and I did) but the pricing through NWS was much more reasonable than directly through Matrix. I own a couple HPS/JTS operational games, WitE, Decisive Campaigns and TOAWIII, and BftB is a well worth the current price IMO. The AI is probably the best of the bunch and it is unique in its "real time", hexless play. JudgeDredd, you are doing yourself a disservice by not getting BftB if you like operational games...swallow that bad taste and pull the trigger.

[CaptCarnage]

Well as I tend to look at the minute-of-fun-per-euro ratio, I have bought games in the past that didn't score as well as BftB. I have spent 30+ hours on the demo, on the Hofen Ho-down and Elsenborne Ridge scenarios, and still got aaaall those others to do.

BftB made me order books, see documentaries about the Bulge, and increase my knowledge on WW2 in general

So, yeah, it has definitely been an enrichment to my life - and I am thinking of the other Command Ops games, but, well, I since I am still grinding on BtfB, I won't have time for that

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Going through the whole thread from back then it hit home that it was the shock of the price hike that was the initial issue - after that, the impulse had left and I never did buy. I occasionally look at it in the store and I don't know whether it's the initial price that still tastes bitter in my mouth or whether it is still a little high, I don't know - but I still have not picked it up.

What's wrong with the price? Is it higher than of other wargames with simulated chain of command and game editors?

[Lieste]

It felt pricey on release... but it wasn't that big a deal - carefully chosen PC titles (that don't force a new machine/graphics card etc) are very, very efficient 'entertainment'. Not bothering with a new TV (and licence thereof) allowed me to buy a few titles that I wanted, and come out on top by 'a lot'.

It actually makes an excellent introductory wargame, despite the grognard aspects, as you only absolutely need to give a general 'intent'. Yes, you can get cleverer, and more nuanced, but most of the time the basics of the plan are the most important... where to move too, how to secure the LOD and LOC, and how much force to commit to the initial and follow-on echelons, where to weight the attack.

My daughter, already asks to play - if only to see her will imposed on thousands of imaginary men as she marches them through the snow, chortling, till they announce they can't go any further.... [8|]

[jomni]

Still waiting for the HTTR scenarios.  Once that's out.  I may just buy BftB finally.
East Front sounds interesting.  Wonder how you will implement Soviet doctrine.
Flashpoint Germany had a good interpretation / simulation of it but that's a different engine.

Since you've done a Military contract, why not release a modern warfare game as well.

[JudgeDredd]

Vietnam - I'd love to see this transformed to a lower level - platoons and squads. I think that's being a bit too hopeful mind.
 
6 day war? Yom Kippur?

[Tejszd]

A patch and HTTR scenarios coming out will make this a tempting game to purchase....

[Phoenix100]

£70 is cheap for it. Can't recall what I paid - whatever the release price was. The market is full of absolute unadulterated shit. It disappoints me terribly to see it happening - the dumbing down of all the initial promise that computer gaming offered. It's relentless. This game is more like art than entertainment. Like Skyhigh said, it is enriching. It makes you go to reality and delve deeper. It requires imagination to picture what is happening because all you've got are silly counters on the surface. Like Lieste said, it's fantastically scaleable. You can play it with minimal effort and detail or you can really go slow and click all the buttons and - and here is the thing - be provided with a mountain of info for your imagination to work on. It's all about providing a sense of reality that engages your imagination. It's a stand-out game and is outstanding in terms of the development of the AI that is crucial to achieving that. I've bought every iteration and will buy everything else Panther produces. I'm still playing BFTB now - how many years after release? - still learning, still not bored, and still playing against the AI!! I paid over £100 for that stupid bundle of rubbish that is EagleDynamics A10, glossy and beautiful but with no AI at all, as far as I can see. Not a game, not an enriching experience, not something that encourages any kind of engagement with history etc. Paid all that and bored to death within about ten hours. My fault, because of my flight dreams, perhaps, but the point is, BFTB is really exceptional in the treatment of AI. No one else is doing it the same. Closest thing might be something like CMSF or Normandy - but the silly little sprites depress me after a while. They are very far from realistic (along with the hexed terrain) - and there's no AI, again. You have to command everything. There's no nuance to it. I'd pay more for what Panther does, happily.

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

£70 is cheap for it. Can't recall what I paid - whatever the release price was. The market is full of absolute unadulterated shit. It disappoints me terribly to see it happening - the dumbing down of all the initial promise that computer gaming offered. It's relentless. This game is more like art than entertainment. Like Skyhigh said, it is enriching. It makes you go to reality and delve deeper. It requires imagination to picture what is happening because all you've got are silly counters on the surface. Like Lieste said, it's fantastically scaleable. You can play it with minimal effort and detail or you can really go slow and click all the buttons and - and here is the thing - be provided with a mountain of info for your imagination to work on. It's all about providing a sense of reality that engages your imagination. It's a stand-out game and is outstanding in terms of the development of the AI that is crucial to achieving that. I've bought every iteration and will buy everything else Panther produces. I'm still playing BFTB now - how many years after release? - still learning, still not bored, and still playing against the AI!! I paid over £100 for that stupid bundle of rubbish that is EagleDynamics A10, glossy and beautiful but with no AI at all, as far as I can see. Not a game, not an enriching experience, not something that encourages any kind of engagement with history etc. Paid all that and bored to death within about ten hours. My fault, because of my flight dreams, perhaps, but the point is, BFTB is really exceptional in the treatment of AI. No one else is doing it the same. Closest thing might be something like CMSF or Normandy - but the silly little sprites depress me after a while. They are very far from realistic (along with the hexed terrain) - and there's no AI, again. You have to command everything. There's no nuance to it. I'd pay more for what Panther does, happily.

Amen brother, amen.

Very well said...........

Rob.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader

ORIGINAL: phoenix

£70 is cheap for it. Can't recall what I paid - whatever the release price was. The market is full of absolute unadulterated shit. It disappoints me terribly to see it happening - the dumbing down of all the initial promise that computer gaming offered. It's relentless. This game is more like art than entertainment. Like Skyhigh said, it is enriching. It makes you go to reality and delve deeper. It requires imagination to picture what is happening because all you've got are silly counters on the surface. Like Lieste said, it's fantastically scaleable. You can play it with minimal effort and detail or you can really go slow and click all the buttons and - and here is the thing - be provided with a mountain of info for your imagination to work on. It's all about providing a sense of reality that engages your imagination. It's a stand-out game and is outstanding in terms of the development of the AI that is crucial to achieving that. I've bought every iteration and will buy everything else Panther produces. I'm still playing BFTB now - how many years after release? - still learning, still not bored, and still playing against the AI!! I paid over £100 for that stupid bundle of rubbish that is EagleDynamics A10, glossy and beautiful but with no AI at all, as far as I can see. Not a game, not an enriching experience, not something that encourages any kind of engagement with history etc. Paid all that and bored to death within about ten hours. My fault, because of my flight dreams, perhaps, but the point is, BFTB is really exceptional in the treatment of AI. No one else is doing it the same. Closest thing might be something like CMSF or Normandy - but the silly little sprites depress me after a while. They are very far from realistic (along with the hexed terrain) - and there's no AI, again. You have to command everything. There's no nuance to it. I'd pay more for what Panther does, happily.

Amen brother, amen.

Very well said...........

Rob.

Exactly. There are so many full-priced games without even a decent AI so it's logical that a game where the developer actually worked on making on a good AI is worth more.

I wish there would be something like BftB on tactical level - I really miss a good AI when playing tactical level games. I have AA:RDOA and Fire-brigade but I have never got into them as I prefer being closer to the action.
Though, I wonder if it would be possible to create a BftB mod where basic units would be squads not companies.

[invinciblerobot]

£70 is cheap for it. Can't recall what I paid - whatever the release price was.

Even after only a week of playing I totally agree. I've been looking for a game of this sophistication and elegance for a long long time.

I wish there would be something like BftB on tactical level - I really miss a good AI when playing tactical level games.

Yes please!!!

[johndoesecond]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

£70 is cheap for it. Can't recall what I paid - whatever the release price was. The market is full of absolute unadulterated shit. It disappoints me terribly to see it happening - the dumbing down of all the initial promise that computer gaming offered. It's relentless. This game is more like art than entertainment. Like Skyhigh said, it is enriching. It makes you go to reality and delve deeper. It requires imagination to picture what is happening because all you've got are silly counters on the surface. Like Lieste said, it's fantastically scaleable. You can play it with minimal effort and detail or you can really go slow and click all the buttons and - and here is the thing - be provided with a mountain of info for your imagination to work on. It's all about providing a sense of reality that engages your imagination. It's a stand-out game and is outstanding in terms of the development of the AI that is crucial to achieving that. I've bought every iteration and will buy everything else Panther produces. I'm still playing BFTB now - how many years after release? - still learning, still not bored, and still playing against the AI!! I paid over £100 for that stupid bundle of rubbish that is EagleDynamics A10, glossy and beautiful but with no AI at all, as far as I can see. Not a game, not an enriching experience, not something that encourages any kind of engagement with history etc. Paid all that and bored to death within about ten hours. My fault, because of my flight dreams, perhaps, but the point is, BFTB is really exceptional in the treatment of AI. No one else is doing it the same. Closest thing might be something like CMSF or Normandy - but the silly little sprites depress me after a while. They are very far from realistic (along with the hexed terrain) - and there's no AI, again. You have to command everything. There's no nuance to it. I'd pay more for what Panther does, happily.

I agree, thoroughly.

About that comparison with CMSF, Normandy (and other previous iterations of the CM engine, and other similar games), I have to say I used to like those games and played them a lot, once upon a time.

But then, I've got enlightened (and thunder-lightened) by BftB for it's subtle and substantial realism. And if I may, I'd use this word in a philosophical sense, if I'm allowed.

What I mean is that the subject of agency (who you are) is fixed, focused and just done right.
And when you "get it", it's indistinguishable from magic.

Look, even if there's a 3D representation of the battlefield in those CM engines, that's really not the way the on-the-field commanding works in the real world. There's this what I would call "Peter-Pan syndrome", which might be fun, engaging and attractive, but if you think about it a bit, it is fundamentally misleading.

I mean, no commander could levitate over the battlefield, roaming freely in the air.
So, at that scale, the commanding experience would be radically different than the one you get in CM, ToW and other similar games.

At the scale of battle the BftB simulates, BftB got it right, and it feels so right.

Maybe, just maybe, there's no other wargame that is so consistent with that fixing the subject of agency, allowing you the player to have realistic powers (and the lack thereof), knowledge (and ignorance), information (and uncertainties), constraints, what you can and cannot do and have, of that subject which you are in BftB.

BftB is like Rome, you should play it before you die.

(As for the price, it's one of those rare games I'd agree "There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's ..."
Even if I hadn't time to play it, it'd really be like panda for me: I'd be willing to pay to protect it against extinction and to let it to live and prosper, even if I never saw and will see one.)

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: johndoesecond

Look, even if there's a 3D representation of the battlefield in those CM engines, that's really not the way the on-the-field commanding works in the real world. There's this what I would call "Peter-Pan syndrome", which might be fun, engaging and attractive, but if you think about it a bit, it is fundamentally misleading.

I mean, no commander could levitate over the battlefield, roaming freely in the air.
So, at that scale, the commanding experience would be radically different than the one you get in CM, ToW and other similar games.

I agree. I sometimes play a tactical wargame mod for Operation Flashpoint called Command Engine. The player commands from the ground. There's a map but it's pretty vague - it doesn't give the artificial perfect situational awareness

On the other hand, it's possible to just go with HQ and try to scout the enemy positions with binoculars. It's mentioned in FM 7-10 but I haven't seen anything like that in a tactical wargame before.
When combat starts, there's a lot of confusion. It's hard to figure out what exactly is going on, there are lots of confusing radio reports that are hard to follow.
I often had to move with troops and risk getting shoot to be able to command.

I remember that one time I had to follow my tanks in a humvee to get a good picture of situation.