Vehicle Breakdown Recovery Time?

WW2'er · Post by **WW2'er** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 3:09 pm

Ok, I found the following update on Fabio's site and wanted to bring it up for discussion before 3.0 comes out. Please read and then see follow-up thought below. This is one feature planned for 3.0 in conjunction with vehicle breakdowns/immobilization.:

"6. Immobilized vehicles will now attempt to repair the damage each turn. In order to make the attempt, the crew must be in the vehicle and not buttoned up or have any suppression. Since immobilization damage can be as simple as a loose spark plug wire or as complex and time consuming as replacing tracks, which can take hours, repair times will vary. Usually, however, it will take an average of 20 turns for an experienced crew to affect repairs. The player will be informed when repairs are completed. Since the repairing unit must be at zero suppression, this will allow even a single machine gun or infantry squad to keep repairs from taking place by firing every turn at the vehicle and pinning the crew inside."

Let me first say that I like the idea of the new vehicle breakdown rules and REALLY like that it will be able to be toggled on or off. However, my question would be, is an AVERAGE 20 turn repair time by an experienced crew too long considering the length of most scenarios in SPWAW? While it is certainly a "realistic" time period for repairs, how many scenarios are long enough to have a vehicle breakdown on say, turn 5, then be repaired 20 turns later (20 turns of zero suppression)and still have time to get into position to have an effect on the outcome of the battle? My thought is, given the length of most scenarios/battles, wouldn't an average repair time of 10 to 15 turns be better in terms of "playability"?

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.

Once again, thanks Matrix folks for working so hard to give us all these great new features!

WW2'er

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 5:33 pm

Hello, I've had it take less time, but the 20+ is an average!! Fog of war, also guns breaking down are very cool too, had an enemy ATG breakdown at the worst time it could have..for the AI, I then was able to breakthru a previous bottleneck!! It's coming, please be patient a while longer!;-)

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 6:00 pm

an 'average' of 20 turns does not sound unreasonable. In the heat of battle, combined with the time scale of SP, i think one is gonna find the % chance of getting an immobilized vehicle going again is going to be slim to none.

Just ask the German tankers at Kursk!

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 6:12 pm

I am not sure if this will be covered in the break down rules but could vehicles just stall. All that would take maybe is a turn or two to restart. This is somewhat of a brakdown but not as serious as one that needs to be addressed by the crew on the outside of the vehicle for hours at a time. All that would happen is that the movement for that turn will be lost and you might end up in a uncomfortable situation. Are engine fires also represented when pushing vehicles to their limits. This could effectively destroy a vehicle. (Panther comes to mind.)
Panther.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 6:21 pm

20 turns (ie 30 minutes to an hour or so) is an Average, you might get it fixed in 3 turns, or it might never get fixed the whole game. You just don't know. We are not going to get into "troubleshooting reports" and ETR's (estimated time to repair). IF it breaks down, you get it back when its fixed

We hem and haw a lot about adding some of these things becasue once you "open the door" its a slippery slope to more and more...<BG>

WW2'er · Post by **WW2'er** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 7:38 pm

We are not going to get into "troubleshooting reports" and ETR's (estimated time to repair). IF it breaks down, you get it back when its fixed
[/B]

What, you mean your not going to tell us which screw is loose?

Seriously, I'm not wanting to start on the "slippery slope" of neverending features. I'm just hoping that the "average" breakdown of a vehicle would be able to be fixed in enough time for that vehicle to be of some functional use to accomplish the scenario objectives. I'm a little concerned that an average of 20 turns won't allow me to do that. But if that's the way it is...I'll live and won't complain! I promise.

WW2'er

Warhorse · Post by **Warhorse** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 8:36 pm

The breakdown does not happen very often anyhow, you just want to watch running trucks, or anything for that matter, full throttle, every turn, that's asking for it!;-)

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Mike Amos
Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 9:22 pm

I think 20+ turns is just about right. That way, for the most part units that break down are down for the count. (the way it should be.) But since Matrix is so nice, it seems that they're making a counterbalance to the break downs... where some will come back way later...

Tomo

David · Post by **David** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 9:57 pm

<<you get it back when its fixed>>

Hehe, Paul sounds like an old maintenance warrent I used to know. He told me one day. "Captain, I know its broke. You get it back when its fixed"

What else can you say.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Thu Aug 10, 2000 10:44 pm

LOL - And if you pressed that ole' Warrant, I bet he would always multiply his best guess by three just to make sure ...That's what I would always tell the XO on my ship, then when it only took twice as long as I thought I still looked good <BEG>

troopie · Post by **troopie** » Mon Aug 14, 2000 11:19 pm

For infantry weapon breakdowns it shouldn't be more than a turn or two. I could clear an R-1, Mauser, or Enfield jam in two minutes, and a Vickers jam in five. The old Vickers Citforce used jammed a lot. I don't know about a Garand or a tommy but it shouldn't take more.

troopie

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Pamwe Chete

RobertMc · Post by **RobertMc** » Tue Aug 15, 2000 8:29 am

Questions about the breakdowns and fast vehicle movement.
This is something I wish had been in SP for a long time, but...
Will this also affect the AI's units? And if the AI pushes its vehicles to the max every turn, won't the AI's units break down more than a human player's?
Has the AI been "corrected" in regards to driving its tanks at max speed every turn?
Just asking.

Armand · Post by **Armand** » Tue Aug 15, 2000 10:42 am

When a tank stops without the crew's willing, it remains in this state for quite a long time... especially (I guess) in the case of damage caused by enemy fire. Anyway, the crew is - most of the time - unable to perform the repair itself, because of the lack of tools, for instance a crane to extract the motor !
In the case of a cut track, it takes at least and in the best conditions (not under enemy fire especially) 15 minutes to fasten it again. And this is for modern tanks, I never worked on a Sherman or Tiger's tracks !

That is why I think that 20 turns are quite reasonable to simulate damage repaired by the crew, even if it seems too long in the game's scale.

Armand (a former tank platoon leader)

Major Destruction · Post by **Major Destruction** » Tue Aug 15, 2000 4:19 pm

Getting an AFV back into the action after it has been immobilised by terrain or poor driving can be very satisfying. But watch out for that opponent's AFV that you by-passed and did not spike. When the crew does get it going again you will find an unwanted visitor behind your lines!

Dave R · Post by **Dave R** » Wed Aug 16, 2000 3:55 am

As an ex tanker myself, it's myexperience that in real life fast break down recovery just doesn't happen, especially in a combat situation.
Breakdowns are caused by either;
Combat
Terrain
Or something just plain breaks.

If the breakdown is through combat, the crew sure as hell ain't going to be getting out to fix it, or to even have a look at what's been bust. If they do get out, it will be to put as much distence between themselves and their dead tank before it draws more incoming.
A terrain breakdown is usually never easy to self recover from, you've ether bogged down, or worse thrown a track. It means a lot of back breaking work. I know. I've had to do it!
Even when something just plain breaks, you've got to find the problem, usually have to drop some of your armour plates to get to the effected part, before you can even think of 'fixing it'
I just feel that self recovery from any breakdown is well outside the time frame of the game.
But in saying all that how about coding in some routines for ARVE's to start doing their job, getting dead tanks going again, fast!
I've noticed that most OB's Have ARVE's listed, but they don't actually do anything, other then act like an engineering /mine clearence tank which they ain't.

Mike Wood · Post by **Mike Wood** » Wed Aug 16, 2000 7:12 am

Hello...

I programmed the feature and have some insight into the intent of the rule.

Vehicle breakdowns represent everything from a stalled engine to a broken drive shaft. In the case of the former, one or two turns are all that's needed to fix it. In the case of the latter, a significantly longer period is needed.

Weapon breakdowns represent everything from a jammed round in the cannon to a badly cracked block. Once again, the time to repair can range from one turn to not at all, during the battle.

We chose to abstract break downs for weapons and vehicles, as detailing a lengthy roster of possible causes and remedies would have taken too long and introduced bugs.

Originally posted by Dave R:
As an ex tanker myself, it's my experience that in real life fast break down recovery just doesn't happen, especially in a combat situation...

This is why the variance is so great. The average vehicle break down will take a skilled crew an average of 20 turns to fix. In any specific case, the time will vary. So, a breakdown might be fixed by a rookie crew in one turn or it may take an elite crew 40 turns to affect a repair, depending on the nature of the breakdown.

So far, in testing, the players seem to like the rule. However, there is a button to turn it off, if it offends.

Hope You Enjoy...

Michael Wood
Lead Programmer,
Matrix Games