The key to carrier combat???

[GBS]

I need some advice. My carriers in #17 are getting obliterated and I can't even seem to launch acounter strike. Are the japanese carriers that much more efficient? Is this reaslistic? Are the aircraft ranges of the Japanese planes longer that the US dive bombers and torpedo planes? What about the support ships in a carrier TF? They seem to provide little or no protection. Is there an optimal number to use for ships in a TF? My TF's are set for patrol and react to enemy. The Japanese ALWAYS(!!!!) get the first lick in. I've lost 19 ships including 3 carriers and have only sunk 1 sub with a dept charge. If this were a fight they would have stoped it in the first round! Love this game but my pilots are either in a card game or are setting around sunning themselves on the deck. How do I get these sorry so and so's to do what they are trained to do. I might put Spruence (?) in charge and see if he can kick some ***. AAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[wpurdom]

The superior performance of the Jap "first team" (Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, and Soryu) is entirely realistic. Just look at what the Hiryu was able to do with pieces of strikes at Midway against the Yorktown. Midway was a combination of three things - (1) distracting the Jap CV by multiple earlier strikes from land planes and TBD's so that the SDB's were able to attack without any fighter opposition; (2) hitting at the precise right moment so that the three CV's that were hit had fuel, bombs, planes, and torpedoes everywhere, which immediately exploded; (3) getting in a first strike without the Japs responding since they were attacking land targets.
In case of UV, you need to train your groups, wear the Japs down with land based power (either getting hits on a CV or wearing out their CAP so that it doesn't fight as well) and, I find, fight any battle close to a port size 3 or greater so that when that big flood damage comes from the Jap torpedoes, it doesn't sink the ship. Sometimes you can fight with extra help from land CAP, if you are on your TF's home base square with retirement allowed.
It's also possible sometimes to fight a battle under favorable conditions before the Japs concentrate there CV's into a super group. If conditions aren't favorable you avoid fights and but can still operate under the umbrella of land-based air power to build up and make short advances. (Like the Americans actually did outside of the Guadalcanal landings).
Of course, you can always hope to be as lucky as the Americans actually were at Midway, but that's not too likely.

[GBS]

good comments. thanks. so, training does actually effect performance?

[wpurdom]

Yes, but its better to find some light target to beat up on. Don't forget you can use transport TF with retirement allowed as a long-range CV detecter.

[Black Cat]

not to crash your thread, but IMO setting the US CV`s to "React" in the early Game is a recipe for disaster.

The Japanese CV`s will rarely, if ever, "turn the corner" at Gili Gili, putting them in range of the LBA at PM, and allowing you to fight them out of range of the deadly LBA at Rabual...( pretty smart AI at work there IMO )

So if the US CV`s do "react" they will end up too near Rabaul and even if they do get _very_ lucky in the airstrike exchanges, they will get creamed from the Bettys & Nells...as Wpurdom wisely suggests, you need to be very careful how you manuever against the Japanese CV`s... also if you see your CV`s being"spotted" by Vals time to beat feet outa there....

If anyone is interested I have three Zip saves of an actual Games opening turns of a May `42 modified ( with notes ) to Historical ( Midway happened ) Scenario 17 Campaign , with what I consider to be more historical leader, airwing, pilot, ship experience levels...to be played as the US vs the AI.

They give the US a better chance to reproduce the actual Historical outcome of the Battle of the Coral Sea, to a major US Victory ( depending on which you load )...and will save restarting after you lose both US CV`s on turn 4 everytime

Hopefully Spooky will be interesting in puting them on his excellent UV site for download.... It`s also useful for what is IMO the optimal US opening setup for the land, LBA, and CV Tf`s...

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by GBS
I need some advice. My carriers in #17 are getting obliterated and I can't even seem to launch acounter strike. Are the japanese carriers that much more efficient? ....

Yes. Why rush into the fight so early. Wait ..
patience, your F4Fs and F3Fs aren't even full strength early on. Wait for additional carriers
and only then engage when you are certain. Later
the CLAAs help alot with the AAA. And putting 100 + CAP up can take alot out of their punch.

Relax. Tour Noumea, see the sights, snorkel the local reefs, take in a luau or two. The fight will come to you eventually, under your terms.

Kaido Butai were probably the most highly trained Naval Air corps ever.

[Toro]

I agree with my compatriots in arms. Don't rush into a CV fight early in the game. Throw away everything you learned in the movie Midway -- mostly lots of luck there, and luck doesn't happen that often.

I've sent my CVs to counter Jap advances in the Gili Gili area, but am always attentive to keeping the "reaction" to "NO WAY!" and keeping them on station south of GG, as moving north of GG is disasterous. Protect your CVs, use them as support, not as your front line.

And, yes, the Jap CVs/pilots were that good early in the war.

[XPav]

In my game of Scen 16 the Japanese set sail with Yamato, Mushashi, two other BBs, and Zuikaku, Junyo, Ryujo (flying A5Ms!) and Zuiho.

They've been blowing the crap out of Port Moresby.

I have to stop them:

Saratoga.
Some cruisers.

I smacked some of their cruisers and destroyes down when Norman Scott met them at PM, and while they lost more ships sunk, most of the rest of my fleet is pretty beat up.

I think the plan at this point is to just hang on at PM, move my squadrons out of there for now, and wait until more carriers show up so I can beat the hell out of their bombardment groups.

[SWODOG]

I just today completed scenario#16 played on the historical settings (JAP SUB DOC ON, US DAMAGE CONTROL ON) and I cannnot emphasize enough that patience early on is the key. Since I installed the 1.2 patch during the last third of my campaign I can't really speak to how tuned down the Jap LBA is but early on their CV's will eat your lunch every time. Wait till you get some support and wait till the Avenger replacements start arriving to go after the Jap Flattops... In the end my final score included 4 CV's and 4 IJN BB's including Musashi sunk. In the end those raids on TRUK sure are fun... Can't wait for WITP. Tom

[doomonyou]

Put all your subs in single ship TF on patrol UNDOCKED at PM. I met the Japanese bombardment groups of Lunga with no less than three gatos and six fleet boats undocked and fully loaded.

historical no.

effective yes.

(but it is rather hard on the S-boats....)

[Q-Ball]

I would agree with all the comments, as Allies I avoid any CV vs. CV fight early on, unless I have overwhelming advantage in numbers, and it's on "my turf", i.e. in range of my LBA and out of range of his. This is just my opinion, but some early do's and don'ts as Allies, until 11/42:

1. Do not ever take your CV's within Betty/Nell/Zero range of Rabaul. That is a line running PM/GiliGili/Lunga. You are asking for trouble.
2. Wait a month for all the F4F's. Train your guys by bombing remote IJA bases for practice, like Buna or Lunga. Get their experience up before tackling IJN CV's.
3. Wait for an opportunity to catch IJN CV's when their aircrews are weakened. The AI will often waste valuable first line aircrews attacking bases, after awhile there are fewer Zero's left on the carriers. That's a good time to pounce, before they return to port to replace the losses. Unfortunately, that doesn't work as well against a good human player, who will likely save the front-line aircrews to get your CV's.
4. If all else fails, you will start to get new CV's in 1/43, so being more aggressive in late '42, you can afford to start losing CV's as long as you are taking some IJN ones down.
5. Later on, you also get much better flak escorts, incluidng CLAA's, St. Louis class CL's, fast BB's, Fletcher DD's. The IJN, on the other hand, has pretty lousy AA escorts. Use escorts that carry 40mm Bofors, a superior AA weapon. This also evens the odds over time, as more of these escorts come on-line.

Against an aggressive human player, is pretty hard to avoid losing most of your CV's in 1942, but at least you can replace them later.

[Q-Ball]

P.S., as far as those IJN ships pounding PM, you can stop that by stationing a CV TF about 6 hexes south of Gili Gili. There, it's out of range of Rabaul, but any ships coming "around the bend" will be within range of your CV during the day before and after, and should get pounded. A couple of those, and either a) they will stop sending bombardment TF's, or b) will bring some CV's. In case of b), they can be lured south into the Coral Sea, where they can be in range of B26's and Hudsons from either Cairns or PM. Then, you have your equalizer to take them on. Or, you can just run, and they will have to go to port eventually to refuel. But whatever you do, don't take on IJN CV's on even terms, until later in the game.

[JohnK]

I just started a #17 campaign as the Japanese, and managed to lose Coral Sea.

Shokaku and Zuikaku sunk, Shoho badly damaged, a lone bomb hit (claimed) to Yorktown.

Entire Kate complements of Shokaku, Zuikaku, and Shoho MISSED. Yes, I did get a strike.

So it's highly variable.

[denisonh]

One thing I have found to help minimize the damage from early CV on CV engagements as the US player is having a surface TF following the CV TF.

I have a number of SC 17 PBEM games going and in 2 of them have had a CV on CV battle around 6-7 May. Both times, IJN strikes hit the surface TF with one or more strikes.

It may not save both your carriers, but it keeps them from getting ganged up on.

[Huskalator]

I usually wait till all my CV's are stocked with Avengers to engage the Japs. Those Devastators are next to worthless unless for some odd reason the Japanese player lets you get up close.

[Luskan]

You can be too cautious as the allies however - I am playing scn 17 with very variable reinforcement, and although I've only lost the Long Island, and all of my fleet carriers are in the 1 tf and in perfect repair (Enterprise, Wasp, Saratoga, Lexington, Hornet, Yorktown) I've only been able to scratch the Shokaku from the enemy battle order. The AI used to come and pick fights south of port moresby with the carrier tf, and would laugh as my LBA didn't launch for three weeks straight, or launched in 2's and 3s before they didn't find the target/got shot to shreds.

I got the Shokaku by a lucky bomb hit which slowed her down enough for the South Dakota to run her and the escort destroyer to ground (north of GG, where Rabual's bombers soon put the Dakota in for some repairs). I've been over cautious, and the Japs took port moresby from me at one stage. with six months (and although my losses have been half that of the enemy, in ships, men and planes) the japs still have everything north of Buna, and west of Lunga (I've got GG, P.M and Irau, and a little raid got me Tulagi - which is useless without Lunga). Every time the Jap CV's come south, they stay for 1 strike at a base, and then run like hell so my CV's cant catch them. I occaisionally get lucky and am waiting for them, but so far I've scored the odd bomb hit. Nothing serious.

On the other hand, 20 PT boats died to put a torpedo into the Hiei, and the Karuna, and the Washington went to the bottom of P.M harbour to scratch the Mutsu and the Mushashi - but these 4 japs battleships, once slowed, never escaped my carrier TF! So that works well at least.

The other thing that works well is giving the enemy carrier group LOTS of targets. Although CV targets have priority, 10 Kates to bomb that transport convoy (of 1 AP) here, with a small escort, and 20 Vals there to bomb that solo DD takes enough off the total that you have a distinct advantage (warning, do not use invasion fleet transports as decoys - troops obviously can't swim).

[denisonh]

I believe it is critical to use your carriers early as the US, but like was mentioned earlier in the thread, in a more limited role.

Careful is using them to support your operations in New Guinea, well within LBA range of PM/Australia.

Cautious is letting them sit in port and give the IJN free rein.

The carriers represent the Wildcard that the IJN can't plan on.

If used correctly, they can put a hurtin on the IJN. Especially the AI which loves to send out unescorted landing forces.

This is especially important in PBEM games. Effective use early can give the USN player a little "cushion" by making the opposition worry about where they are.

Not to mention an agressive IJN human player will really make you pay in spades if you DON'T use your carriers early.

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by denisonh
I believe it is critical to use your carriers early as the US, but like was mentioned earlier in the thread, in a more limited role.

Careful is using them to support your operations in New Guinea, well within LBA range of PM/Australia.

Cautious is letting them sit in port and give the IJN free rein.

The carriers represent the Wildcard that the IJN can't plan on.

If used correctly, they can put a hurtin on the IJN. Especially the AI which loves to send out unescorted landing forces.

This is especially important in PBEM games. Effective use early can give the USN player a little "cushion" by making the opposition worry about where they are.

Not to mention an agressive IJN human player will really make you pay in spades if you DON'T use your carriers early.

I agree fully with much of what has been said in this thread, particularly your comments, denisonh.

My experience has been (in both PBEM and AI games against IJN) that being careful is the key, but note that the worm begins to turn when York and Lex get their fighter groups fitted out to the full 36 aircraft. This happens end of May/beginning of June and gives you some flexibility. Your opportunity is limited, however, because soon the "Midway" carriers are going to arrive and you're back in deep doodle again, at least for awhile. If you can precipitate a carrier battle with Sho, Zui, and Slow Ho on your terms at this point, you can forever weaken the IJN "supergroup" of carriers, enough so that, with your CV reinforcements arriving in July and August, you can really think about, and work on, shifting the initiative to your side.

One thing that seems a little overlooked in the commentary on sc 17 is that the Allies are squeezing the Japanese from two directions, while the IJN has only a single, limited avenue of attack (unless they can solidify their hold in the Solomons and turn Lunga into a base of some offensive power). Particularly in the early going, Yamamoto has limited options (and this seems to negate any "interior lines" advantages, in my experience).

As Khan said when Spock accidentally activated the loud siren on the Enterprise while she was supposedly in quiet mode, "We have him. Move on him."

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The foregoing analysis was compiled by the High Command

[DSandberg]

Originally posted by pasternakski
As Khan said when Spock accidentally activated the loud siren on the Enterprise while she was supposedly in quiet mode, "We have him. Move on him."

Bzzt! Okay, hold it right there ... sorry, but I'm going to have to take back your Trekkie merit badges.

1) The Romulan commander in TOS "Balance of Terror" said this, not Khan. (different character, different actor)

2) The actual quote is "We have him. Move toward him."

Live long and prosper.

- David

P.S.: as much as I enjoy Trek, I do much prefer an earlier version of the same story, as told in the WWII sub movie "The Enemy Below" (also more on topic!)

[Toro]

Good thing you corrected him, DSandberg, otherwise I was going to have to... lol.