Chaining nerfed?

[Jimbo123]

Rule Change (Section 20.6) – Several changes have been made to the HQ Build up rules as follows:

The amount of supplies and fuel delivered to a HQ conducting HQ Buildup is now equal to the total needs of all of the on map units attached to the HQ (supplies/fuel already on hand do not alter this calculation). This replaces the old method of basing supplies/fuel delivered on the AP cost of the buildup. These will then be distributed to bring the units up to 100% of their need with the unused remainder remaining in the HQ.

For each 2 tons of supplies or fuel sent to the HQ, 1 vehicle will be damaged and 1 vehicle will be sent to the HQ. The number of vehicles destroyed remains unchanged



Did this rule nerf chainiing? Updated and started a new game and after several trys I could not get an empty HQ to fill up with supplies

[carlkay58]

Yes it did nerf it. If you have an empty HQ and do HQ BU, then the total amount of supplies and fuel delivered to the HQ is merely to supply the HQ itself (since there are no longer any units attached for the calculation to use).

[Jimbo123]

Well isn't that just great. I guess I have played my last game. The German side is hopeless but now a German player has NO chance! They will never be able to get deep enough into russia and inflict enough damage to even make a game of it. I guess the russian players get to win all the time, as if that's fun.

I guess I will just move on!

Del I will finish our game then I'm done.

Good luck to all!

See you in a decade when WITE II comes out

[Jimbo123]

If I'm still alive!

[carlkay58]

Before you go, check out some of the AARs with Saper as the Axis (vs Harrybannana?) and you can see that reaching impossible depths is still very much in the Axis abilities if done properly.

[Peltonx]

Thats going to be nerfed also next patch.

[Jimbo123]

I checked out the AAR and he was most likely chaining ( not muling ) in the South or the Russian had some very poor play. Against solid Russian play the logistics prevent any chance of getting to Kharkov Salino etc. There is a chance that my poor play prevents me from getting those penetrations but after 100's of manhours on this game to me its just math. When the rail repair got nerfed you just can't get enough supply across the Depner until late in the summer.

This has ruined the game for me. I spent so much time trying to replicate some of the massive gains made by the top players ( Pelton, Michael T ) to finally discover and master ( well learn how to use ) chaining. I have read all the auguments about non-historical crap . There are, I have to win, type players. I personally love wargames and while winning is nice it's a game to me. How can it be fun to sit down to invest time into WITE with no hope of getting to 1944. What kind of experience is it for a Russian to not get tested in 41/42.

This is like being 16, having a car given to you and then taken away after 1 day because it was fun to drive!

OK done whining! ( really really disapointed though )

Jimbo

[hfarrish]

I don't think anyone is saying that chaining itself is going to be nerfed - I thought the Saper approach was chaining plus some air resupply tricks (I don't mean that perjoritavely) and the air resupply was what was going to be nerfed. Maybe I missed something though.

[Jimbo123]

No the patch killed chaining. I don't its effects on air supply. My response was based on his game being used as an example of German success while not chaining.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Jimbo123

I checked out the AAR and he was most likely chaining ( not muling ) in the South or the Russian had some very poor play. Against solid Russian play the logistics prevent any chance of getting to Kharkov Salino etc. There is a chance that my poor play prevents me from getting those penetrations but after 100's of manhours on this game to me its just math. When the rail repair got nerfed you just can't get enough supply across the Depner until late in the summer.

As Saper's opponent I can tell you that he was not chaining or muling in the South or anywhere else for that matter. Indeed we started the game after the HQBU nerf you are complaining about. If you ask him he'll probably tell you (and I believe him) that not only did he not chain or mule he probably has not even done a single HQBU.

As for poor play on my part as the Russians, I don't think that is the case. I consider myself a pretty good Russian player. I had not lost a game as the Russians prior to this game, and even this game isn't over yet. What Saper is accomplishing against me he also accomplished against Kamil, Speedy and M60A, 3 pretty good players I think. Though with Kamil I don't think Saper really perfected his system until part way through the game. In fact I am doing better than Speedy or M60A, but probably only because I knew going into my game how Saper was doing it so I was better prepared. Not saying I haven't made mistakes, I have, but I believe I am still giving Saper a pretty good test.

As for how Saper is doing it. Firstly he is a very good player. Take a look at his extended Lvov opening in the South as just one example. Secondly, he has discovered (and I don't believe he is alone in this discovery) that since motorized units require less fuel than panzers he can keep several of them at or near full MPs every turn using airsupply. If you read my AAR in full you will see that I have attempted to explain this in detail, showing on most turns where his motorized have been airsupplied and how much fuel they have. I'm not saying Saper can keep all of his motorized fully gassed every turn, but he can keep enough of them gassed to make incredible advances far from his railheads.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Jimbo123

No the patch killed chaining. I don't its effects on air supply. My response was based on his game being used as an example of German success while not chaining.

The Saper vs Harrybanana game is exactly that, an example of German success while not chaining. In my AAR I show every turn (as best I can) where Saper's Panzer/motorized units are located and what their fuel state is. Please give me an example of a turn and a location where you believe Saper was chaining, or, for that matter, even performing a HQBU.

[delatbabel]

I think the fundamental problem is the victory conditions and to achieve them the Germans have to destroy the Soviet army and production in 1941 to have any chance of "winning" the game.

Historically the Germans didn't take Moscow or Leningrad in 1941. They got close, got pushed back to Berlin by April 1945 and doing exactly that as the Germans should be a draw. If the Germans have control over Berlin in May 1945 that should be a German victory. Realistically, the Germans didn't have any chance of winning the war and aren't going to win it, but if a player can do better than the Germans historically did then that should be a win.

I'd probably even say that the Germans, historically, did a lot better than they should have on paper. So perhaps the victory line should be somewhere in 1944 to make the game more competitive.

[Jimbo123]

Harrybanana I am sorry and had zero intent on insulting your play! My comment was from the frame of reference of "how could this happen if he wasn't chaining". Since you started your game after chaining was nerfed then he isn't chaining. Your word is enough as well.

Style and speed of retreat could also be factors in your game.

I've played several games into 1943 only to have the russian steamroller turn my army into a speed bump. While I am by no means a great player my perspective has been formed from the very common tactic of running and putting up a stone wall just outside the logistical capibilities of the GHC in the South. I have also played some very good russian players. I have no delusions of winning but mearly to put up a great fight and be a quality opponent.

When a game becomes unfun people stop playing it.

How long til you all run out of GHC players?

[Gunnulf]

My 2p worth as a latecomer who just picked up the game about 5 weeks ago (but have been playing it almost non-stop since...) then from the AI games and 4 MP games I have on the go (all now end of 41 or well into 42) then it all seems fairly well balanced IMHO. From those 2 MP games as Soviet I have 1) held Moscow/lost Leningrad 2) held both in the other (Leningrad by skin of teeth!). From 2 Axis games I have 1) captured both 2) captured Leningrad/ stopped at gates of moscow but taken Rostov.
All in latest patch. Decent players against me I think and has been a solid fight & I have enjoyed playing both sides. I can't see how this old chaining exploit could be seen as anything other than gamey and certainly not in the spirit of the model. Perhaps against seasoned players who have been playing this game inside and out since 2010 then I would not fair so well. However my main point is as a relatively new player then the above results are the sign of a relatively healthy and well balanced game. Well done the devs for closing down exploits.

[swkuh]

Satisfaction in conducting a good defense or great offense is its own reward. Forcing the game to mimic history goes against learning to play well. Every time a change to the underlying algorithms is experienced it is frustrating; when does it happen and when does it end? "Forcing" means a change to algorithms that's not anticipated from an inspection of the manual.

[heliodorus04]

One of the key problems for the betterment of game balance is that the German side can only be played to the point of dramatic tension by the very best players who play dozens of games and have more hours in WitE than most of us have to spend on our cumulative free time excursions. Nerfs to the German side were done because of what the very best players could do, making ordinary skill German players play Sisyphus: try to get a good enough 1941, fail, resign, rinse repeat.

[Schmart]

The fundamental problem with the game, are the human players. The game system generally falls apart if the Russian player runs away. If the Russian doesn't run away, there's an actual game to be played, and at that point it's far from impossible for the German player to win. Another aspect is the "If I can't get my panzers to Stalingrad in 1941 then the game is a wash" attitude by some. That's an exaggeration, but I'd hazard a guess that a large percentage of Axis players will give up if they haven't won outright in 1941, because a hard/smart defensive fight for 43-45 isn't as glorious as pushing your panzers around at will. I think that the game community generally lacks in regards to Axis defensive skills, hence the "game is over if I don't get Leningrad, Moscow, and Rostov in 41" viewpoint. There are quite a number of good Axis defensive AARs around, that show the ability to slow late war Russian advances, to the point of Axis victory.

Solutions? Hard code a trip line (or something or other), that if crossed by the Germans before a certain date, the Russians are deemed to have run away and trigger a "you're not a fun opponent" loss screen for the Russian player. This will help to force more Russian players to stand and fight. Standing and fighting usually results in the Russians getting torn to shreds in the current system, so the Axis side will probably have to be toned down a bit (ie: no HQBU, reduced logistics, etc).

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Schmart
The fundamental problem with the game, are the human players. The game system generally falls apart if the Russian player runs away. If the Russian doesn't run away, there's an actual game to be played, and at that point it's far from impossible for the German player to win. Another aspect is the "If I can't get my panzers to Stalingrad in 1941 then the game is a wash" attitude by some. That's an exaggeration, but I'd hazard a guess that a large percentage of Axis players will give up if they haven't won outright in 1941, because a hard/smart defensive fight for 43-45 isn't as glorious as pushing your panzers around at will. I think that the game community generally lacks in regards to Axis defensive skills, hence the "game is over if I don't get Leningrad, Moscow, and Rostov in 41" viewpoint. There are quite a number of good Axis defensive AARs around, that show the ability to slow late war Russian advances, to the point of Axis victory.

Solutions? Hard code a trip line (or something or other), that if crossed by the Germans before a certain date, the Russians are deemed to have run away and trigger a "you're not a fun opponent" loss screen for the Russian player. This will help to force more Russian players to stand and fight. Standing and fighting usually results in the Russians getting torn to shreds in the current system, so the Axis side will probably have to be toned down a bit (ie: no HQBU, reduced logistics, etc).

Nice way to sum it up.

I'd go a step further than that, aka if the Russian is given better means to fight forward (either tuning down German side of things, or bettering Russian exp, or tuning their manpower and reinforcements to more historical numbers, maybe even dependent on arriving only if certain key cities fall sooner than usual and indicate need) and attrit the Germans in 41 and 42, then you'll automatically see less of Mr. Sir Robin. Same would probably be true for the Germans during blizzard, if the relative combat capacities would be tuned to more even, realistic scenarios in which Germans don't simply lose all offensive and much defensive power by a lighting stroke (and in fact, please link it to the weather, aka random weather blizzard turns in November...).

I don't find it surprising that the defending play part of an I-Go-U-Go game is much less attractive than we-go. After all you've literally no choice except to put our units at the best places you can guess-timate, stack reserves and already plan the next rearward line. You can't even select yourself when your reserves get into action. Nor is the reserves mode what would be needed to mimick all the things a reacting side can really do within the time frame of one week. I hope that part of the game will get much attention for WitW. Not that it is not interesting to watch someone like IdahoNYer execute his skillful defenses -- in fact the tension is great, but from playing I'd say I enjoy the offensive phases a lot more as there is more (interesting things) to do.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
One of the key problems for the betterment of game balance is that the German side can only be played to the point of dramatic tension by the very best players who play dozens of games and have more hours in WitE than most of us have to spend on our cumulative free time excursions. Nerfs to the German side were done because of what the very best players could do, making ordinary skill German players play Sisyphus: try to get a good enough 1941, fail, resign, rinse repeat.

I don't think so. G&G have been very carefully tuning this thing, and really only addressed loop-holes that are plainly not designed to be there in first place, and plainly just unrealistic. Simply put the logistics system should put a break on the Axis advance even if the Russians were just brainless speed-bumps (i.e. even against AI), or not even there.
Other than that, G&G touched very little, and much of it like the Russian national morale and manpower factors got tuned down in favor of Axis.

Naturally the asymmetry in this conflict means and should mean that playing the German side will allow for fewer errors, and will be more challenging. So more practicing. Just like in the case of Japan in WitP. It was not a contest between even enemies, why should the basic, historically-based GC in this game be? There are alternatives meanwhile in the Mod-Section, that analogous to Andy Mac's AE Scenario 2 or the RA scenarios improve the Axis starting point for more evenly matched PBEM games...

[Jimbo123]

@helio and schmart AMEN!

@gunnulf

I felt like you did a month ago until I switched to the "dark side". I was totally against muling and tried everything to avoid the decision to chain. While you are entilted to your opinion I think it might have a bit more relevence after you have experenced 1943. I was permitted to resign by my last russian opponent in late 43 and in conversing with him post game I decided to learn the basics of chaining and then go back to human play. I started a thread announcing my reasons for the switch and my opponent had no trouble accepting my challenge. If he wants to weigh in he can, but I think he has had to work much harder thus enjoying the game more. I also would be suprised if he doesn't feel he will win. I actually play the Germans because I enjoy defending. To be able to do that 41/42 had to get better.

@harrybanana

I guess since sapper is not chaining I would love him to post a screen shot showing the progress of his southern railheads and his begining MP's of his PZ's. ( probably too late ) Post turn russian screen shots really don't help us get better or understand what is going on. I went back and studied AAR's to figure out how to chain and it became my answer to my problem. If there is another way then back to the drawing board. I don't want to clutter your AAR with off topic remarks.