Submarine Warfare

[blueatoll]

First thanks for all the help on the logistics questions.

I am beginning to think that the computer controlled sub warfare system is not working, is stupid, or insufficient. Again, I'm in March 1942 as the Allies, my first war patrols using the automated sub system were very productive. Now I've got a bunch of subs sitting in bases like Brisbane and Pearl Harbor going on weird little missions and patrols. There is one sub that is patrolling the Bay next to Adelaide and everytime I re-route it, the AI just assigns a new sub to patrol that area.

Should I be running my own Sub Campaign? Any recommendations on hunting grounds and what bases to run things out of it I do? Is Dutch Harbor (Level 3 Port) or Midway (Level 2 Port soon to be Level 3) good places to strike the Home Islands from?

Thanks again.

[RogerJNeilson]

Sub warfare is stealth and anticipation. I would never trust the computer to be cunning enough. You need to be managing your subs, managing their patrol areas, varying these as your opponent takes countermeasures, and changing your skippers to get the best results.

Where the enemy shipping is will change over time as their needs change, also what do you want to do, sink ships, hinder logisitics, annoy his navy, recce where hs is, drop mines? You can't do everything. You must decide on your own priority.

Any base with an AS that is supplied will service undamaged subs... the bigger the base the faster the turnaround and perhaps the easier to repair minor dents and scratches. You want bases that are not going to be too far away fromwhere you will be trying to sink his ships - so your patrol leg is large and your transit legs are short - on the other hand if you are too close to him with your bese he may just decide to take it out and that's a bit of a nuisance.

This game does not have easy ansswers.... that's why its so frustraitngly good.

Roger

[Lokasenna]

Computer controlled sub ops can indeed be idiotic. I would only ever use it if I couldn't be bothered to (even just periodically) manually set my sub patrol zones.

Any base that is close enough to submarine target zones (Home Islands, Formosa area, etc.) but far enough away from potential raiding threats is a good one for subs. Midway is known to be an example of this. Any place that is closer than Pearl and still safe enough to use is a good option. Just keep in mind that you will need an AS in the port stocked with supplies (don't forget to bring a small escort along to scare off enemy submarines trying to mess up your day, either) and fuel. The AS needs supplies on board in order to replenish torpedoes.

I prefer Hollandia or NW New Guinea for my subs, but I also prefer a "southern strategy" to my Allied play.

[Speedysteve]

I love the sub element of the game. I have almost always had success with my Allied subs.

To do this though it requires a LOT of man management and degree of the success will always depend on the skill level of the Japanese opponent (their focus on LBA ASW, ASW TF use, routing convoys etc).

One thing I would say is that IMO it's almost impossible to measure the Allied sub campaign in AE to the RL Allied sub effort. Unless the Japanese player is a numpty and routes ships out of convoy with limited ASW effort etc you just won't achieve the historical results.

I don't want to give too much away, as my current opponents can read this, but I manage subs a lot, move them frequently, change patrol ones, choose leaders for each sub + a few other things I don't want to disclose.

In short you have to manually control your subs to gain results and the more time you invest in them the more successful you will be.
The best base to house subs will vary depending on your game situation. I base them out of harms way from the front but as near as possible to enemy territory. I always have an AS (to re supply) and an AR for low level repairs.

Suitable areas will depend on how your opponent routes his/her ships. Good areas I have typically found are south of Japan, around Luzon, Near Balikpapan, Palembang, Southern Indochina and don't neglect around Hokkaido......

[kbfchicago]

Roger is on it...never have, never will let the AI run my sub campaign. While the AI in general for this game is very good compared to any other computer game I've played, it doesn't "think".

I've done 2 PBEMs (disclosure, a@@ got kicked in the first one...) and "a few" tune up games as Allied vs AI. In my 2nd PBEM we're in pretty much the same spot (our game is in mid Apr 42).

Where to base...

You should have a number of AS ships, use them but be cautious about basing out of too many locations. Just because you have an AS available does not mean you need to open a new sub base. Check the manual, pg 287 has the listing of what's needed to rearm based on size of port in lieu of or in addition to AS ships. You'll also want to position ARs for repair where possible. I like;

Adak for covering East Coast of Japan, between Japan/Korea/Mongolia; in 42 just a few subs based here, all coming in as reinforcements. (as does the AS, through Panama @ Feb/March I think). You can eventually (usually by 43) build Adak up as a respectable port. Be wary of an IJ player who is aggressive in Aleutians. You may have to fight for it...

Central Japan, China Sea, Formosa, Einwok islands areas I cover from long range boats at Pearl. I deploy about 2/3 of Pearl's starting subs there, with limited reinforcements in '42. I don't bother to forward stage an AS to Midway in '42, leery of an early loss there and harassment. I will keep a couple of subs back for deploying harassing mines in IJ locations. (use the DMs to deploy defensive mines in conjunction with troop deployments to Midway/Baker/Canton, etc). Short range boats cover Wake/Midway/Johnson Island approaches as an early warning line.

The bulk of US subs start in Manilla, I send them out to Turk, Formosa, Philippines, South China, Vietnam, and Cebe Sea. The short range boats focus on defense of Philippines (between Phillp/Formosa around the Phillip beaches/approaches) remain based out of Manilla and will likely get one refuel there. The longer range boats I change the base to Darwin (Cebe), DEI (Saraj...something...the big port) (Viet/South China) or Sydney (Formosa/Turk & 1 or 2 East of the Philippines)during the initial turn(s). As the long range boats come into refuel the fight for the Philippines is usually about done and they get re-positioned to defend approaches to the DEI, New Guinea, Nomea, etc. The short range boats get shifted to Port Herden (sp? / NW Aussie) and Darwin to support DEI/Aussie defense.

US West Coast short range boats at the start of the game I deploy in a screen line beyond the range of my PBYs for an additional early warning barrier.

Dutch boats defend Eastern Malaya, N. Burma, and Cebe initially, rolling back to DEI as pressed by the IJ. The Dutch "O" boats deploy the Dutch sub mine arsenal at 2-3 area's I'm looking to make into strong points before going out on patrol duties (will take a few months ~ if you've not been leveraging sub mines...get to it!). As DEI falls, shift boats to Perth/Port Herden/Colombo. Be wary of overloading Darwin as your ability to get fuel into Darwin should the IJ press you there will get "difficult". (lesson learned the hard way...)

Reinforcements in '42:
Brit ~ all Indian ocean based, used almost exclusively in 42 to deploy mines (while they last)
US West Coast ~ short range boats to Pago Pago, long range to Adak then shifting to Pearl.
Panama ~ mix of Pago Pago and Sydney ~ depending on where the IJ seems to be pressing (Central Pacific or New Guinea/E Aussie area)
US East Coast ~ Port Herden/Perth or Colombo (depending on how well I'm doing in DEI) via Cape
Dutch ~ get a few boats that pop up, just add them into the DEI defense mix.

42 Summary:
Manilla (usually falls by Mid March/Apr)
Pearl
Colombo
Saraj...(DEI, a few short range US Boats shifted from Manilla)
Sydney
AS (AS comes from...) - Darwin (Manilla), Port Herden (Saraj or Manilla), Adak (US reinf.), Pago Pago (Pearl)

On a related topic...I've not seem much traffic on the "best IJ Merchant traffic lanes" to wait in. With PBEM I would assume your IJ counterpart will not let those fall to default routes (and your likely asking for a lot of merchant reefs if you only use computer generated as allied). In 42 I tend to play more "offensive-defense" using subs as early warning to what the IJ is up to, guarding key approaches to objectives, and watch a few choke points for tankers around Burma/Cebes with just enough subs around the home islands/China to keep him honest and using SCs, PBs, and DDs, etc in the rear areas. The AI is usually much, much more careless with guarding his merchants than a PBEM opponent. The AI also was more aggressive then my PBEM opponent in harassing West Coast ports and "cross" traffic between ports. Somewhere there was a good post for Allied players facing heavy US West Coast sub presence and shifting your shipping to only 1 or 2 heavily patrolled ports in '42.

If playing with realistic duds (the only way to play!)... don't get too frustrated in 42, your time will come. Even if you don't get massive sinkings, you'll be tying up ASW resources with your presence (at least that's what I keep telling myself [:)])

Happy gaming!

[Terminus]

Listen to Speedy. He's a veteran of running unrestricted submarine warfare.

[topeverest]

Agree. Subs need to be managed manually - and every single turn of the game...every turn. You will not achieve historical results as the allies against a skilled empire opponent, but you can achieve great things to be sure. I also agree on the fluid nature of the campaign. the empire has to move booty, and the allies need to determine how it is being done to deploy their subs to best effect.

A couple hints then wihtout giving away the ship...As the allied player in 42 with the american dud problem, you need to manage the subs that dont suffer dud's carefully. they will be the ones that bring home most of the kills in 42. Dont overplay any patrol. bring home subs with damage in any register more than 10. understand the value of flooding a combat zone with subs versus merchant roles.

If you pay attention every turn, you will pick up many tricks over the course of several games.

[AcePylut]

I try to use some subs in an air-crew rescue manner, in the odd belief that having a sub or two or few in places where you bomb helps to return pilots who's planes don't make it back to base, instead of having them end up mia or kia.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: blueatoll
I am beginning to think that the computer controlled sub warfare system is not working, is stupid, or insufficient.

Right. The AI is not even capable of being stupid because it's just software. Don't let the AI (which is an oxymoron because there is no intelligence involved) run anything that you can run yourself. I know, it's so time consuming, but if you're not doing it yourself, what's the point of playing this game?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

I love the sub element of the game. I have almost always had success with my Allied subs.

To do this though it requires a LOT of man management and degree of the success will always depend on the skill level of the Japanese opponent (their focus on LBA ASW, ASW TF use, routing convoys etc).

One thing I would say is that IMO it's almost impossible to measure the Allied sub campaign in AE to the RL Allied sub effort. Unless the Japanese player is a numpty and routes ships out of convoy with limited ASW effort etc you just won't achieve the historical results.

I don't want to give too much away, as my current opponents can read this, but I manage subs a lot, move them frequently, change patrol ones, choose leaders for each sub + a few other things I don't want to disclose.

In short you have to manually control your subs to gain results and the more time you invest in them the more successful you will be.
The best base to house subs will vary depending on your game situation. I base them out of harms way from the front but as near as possible to enemy territory. I always have an AS (to re supply) and an AR for low level repairs.

Suitable areas will depend on how your opponent routes his/her ships. Good areas I have typically found are south of Japan, around Luzon, Near Balikpapan, Palembang, Southern Indochina and don't neglect around Hokkaido......

yeah, Speedy loves it, Faber not so much...

sorry, couldn't resist [;)]

[Speedysteve]

Pffft who's side are you on castor? [;)]

[rjopel]

What the best way to arrange a sub picket line? Been having trouble setting those up.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: rjopel

What the best way to arrange a sub picket line? Been having trouble setting those up.

Well, are you playing the IJ or the Allies? Because it's a lot easier with the Glen boats. I love those things.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: rjopel

What the best way to arrange a sub picket line? Been having trouble setting those up.

As the Allies the best way is to have a batch of subs on overlapping Patrol Zones. Have react range set to 1. Ideal world you want to have each sub having each leg of it's patrol zone maximum being it's daily move rate. For example if a sub can move say 5 hexes on mission speed in a day then you want one 'side' of it's patrol zone to be 5 hexes long maximum. Alternate your subs so that they're covering multiple hexes of the sea.

Not sure if this makes sense. Easier to show I feel!

[rjopel]

I'm playing the allies currently

[Mistmatz]

ORIGINAL: Speedy
...
Ideal world you want to have each sub having each leg of it's patrol zone maximum being it's daily move rate. For example if a sub can move say 5 hexes on mission speed in a day then you want one 'side' of it's patrol zone to be 5 hexes long maximum. Alternate your subs so that they're covering multiple hexes of the sea.
...

What I never understood is where subs actually have a chance to hit enemy vessels. Is it in the start and end hex of the sub, of the target or in each hex along the way?

For example assume a vessel starts at hex 0 and makes it to hex 7 by the end of a turn. The sub starts at hex 1 and makes it to hex 6 by the end of the turn. In which hexes can a attack occur (assuming no air recon and react set to 1)?

[jmalter]

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz
What I never understood is where subs actually have a chance to hit enemy vessels. Is it in the start and end hex of the sub, of the target or in each hex along the way?

IMO subs (or ASW ships) can possibly attack in any of those hexes - start, end, or anywhere along the route. It depends on whether or not the attacker's route intersects w/ the defender's route as each travels along its path during the movement phases (as calculated by the game-engine), as well as whether or not the a/d start off/end up sharing a hex at the beginning/end of the phases.

also consider the sub's ability to detect an enemy TF - a sub equipped w/ its own radar or search-planes, or if it's operating under friendly NavSearch that might raise the detection-level of enemyTFs along its path has a better chance of spotting the enemy than a subTF w/o those advantages.

I'm dubious about the ability of a subTF to 'react' to an enemy TF, but I always set its react to 1 out of habit. but I'm more sure that a subTF that is 'under way' has a better chance of intercepting a potential target - in other words, it's better to assign the subTF to a 2- or 3-hex patrol zone, w/ 1 day spent in each hex, than it is to set a subTF to 'remain on station' in a single hex.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

ORIGINAL: Speedy
...
Ideal world you want to have each sub having each leg of it's patrol zone maximum being it's daily move rate. For example if a sub can move say 5 hexes on mission speed in a day then you want one 'side' of it's patrol zone to be 5 hexes long maximum. Alternate your subs so that they're covering multiple hexes of the sea.
...

What I never understood is where subs actually have a chance to hit enemy vessels. Is it in the start and end hex of the sub, of the target or in each hex along the way?

For example assume a vessel starts at hex 0 and makes it to hex 7 by the end of a turn. The sub starts at hex 1 and makes it to hex 6 by the end of the turn. In which hexes can a attack occur (assuming no air recon and react set to 1)?

The difference in naval movement between classical WITP and AE is well explained by jwilkerson in post #14 of this thread.

tm.asp?m=2017354&mpage=1&key=sub%2Cintercept&#2017354

Combat may occur whenever both sides have naval assets in a hex. In AE this may arise as hex by hex movement of the different set paths is calculated and intersection of the paths occurs, or as a result of reacting from the set path towards the other side's naval assets.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: jmalter

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz
What I never understood is where subs actually have a chance to hit enemy vessels. Is it in the start and end hex of the sub, of the target or in each hex along the way?

IMO subs (or ASW ships) can possibly attack in any of those hexes - start, end, or anywhere along the route. It depends on whether or not the attacker's route intersects w/ the defender's route as each travels along its path during the movement phases (as calculated by the game-engine), as well as whether or not the a/d start off/end up sharing a hex at the beginning/end of the phases.

also consider the sub's ability to detect an enemy TF - a sub equipped w/ its own radar or search-planes, or if it's operating under friendly NavSearch that might raise the detection-level of enemyTFs along its path has a better chance of spotting the enemy than a subTF w/o those advantages.

I'm dubious about the ability of a subTF to 'react' to an enemy TF, but I always set its react to 1 out of habit. but I'm more sure that a subTF that is 'under way' has a better chance of intercepting a potential target - in other words, it's better to assign the subTF to a 2- or 3-hex patrol zone, w/ 1 day spent in each hex, than it is to set a subTF to 'remain on station' in a single hex.

You can leave your scepticism at the cloak room.[:)] Subs do react.

There are however some circumstances where a sub on "patrol" or moving to it's destination will not react notwithstanding a reaction range of 1 has been set. Subs will not react if it would result in:

* entering a known minefield
* entering a medium or larger sized port

Subs in position and set to "remain on station" do not react irrespective of what range the player has in the reaction field.

Alfred

[Alfred]

As the OP is a newbie, and it has been a little while since the subject of sub operations has been raised and covered in depth, I think the OP and all newbies would benefit from reading this thread (and all the linked threads therein I provided).

tm.asp?m=2889330&mpage=1&key=wolfpack&#2890874

One thing which the above thread (and links) doesn't focus on is the strategic AI utilisation of defensive sub patrols. I'll leave the OP to search the forum for that issue.

Alfred