What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
Footslogger
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:46 pm
Location: Washington USA

What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Footslogger »

Interesting of how life would have been under nazis.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTy8yHXt7Q0


User avatar
Yaab
Posts: 5447
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:09 pm
Location: Poland

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Yaab »

Didn't Germans occupy Guernsey and Jersey islands?
User avatar
crsutton
Posts: 9590
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 8:56 pm
Location: Maryland

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by crsutton »

A what-if history and not a very good one at that. Nobody knows. One thing for sure, in spite of having the best army in the world, the German Navy was pitifully small and neither the army navy or air force had had the training, doctrine or equipment to mount anything other than minor amphibious operations. Given the time frame needed, the operation would have been on a shoestring and would have just as likely ended in a German disaster. Now that would be a much more reasonable what-if to contemplate.[;)]
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

The British would had put their entire navy to prevent a D-day scenario. Even with complete air superiority, the Germans would have had a very hard time trying to sink so many battleships and cruisers. The Lufftwaffe didn't design torpedo bomber and their torpedoes were faulty in 1940, but more important, they did not train for naval operations. So, they had nothing close to the performance of hard core veteran Japanese Betty bombers.

They had Stuka dive bombers and Heinkels/ Junkers/ Dorniers level bombers. The former would had wounded, but not sunk the fleet. The later would had done very little against fast moving targets.

Preventing the invasion was the core, "do or die" mission of the RN. And the British would had accepted any losses in ships, to avoid it


User avatar
TulliusDetritus
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:49 am
Location: The Zone™

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

The British would had put their entire navy to prevent a D-day scenario. Even with complete air superiority, the Germans would have had a very hard time trying to sink so many battleships and cruisers. The Lufftwaffe didn't design torpedo bomber and their torpedoes were faulty in 1940, but more important, they did not train for naval operations. So, they had nothing close to the performance of hard core veteran Japanese Betty bombers.

If you read Churchill's WW2 memoirs (as I did) you will notice that was NOT the British plan. The British were sceptical about the Royal Navy stopping, destroying the first German amphibious landings on British soil [;)]

The plan was to strike after the initial landings had been done (4, 6 divisions?). THEN the Royal Navy would block any attempt to ressuply the German forces in Britain.

The result is the same, but the approach is totally different.

Again, they were not thinking about preventing a D-Day scenario because the units were too far to intervene (Scotland).

And the German aviators sunk MANY allied ships (even really fast ones like DDs). They were truly dangerous, feared by the British themselves [8D]
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit.... but 4 to 6 divisions? no way... maybe 1 or 2 divisions and go very lightly equiped as the Japanese did early war (against tremendously light resistance)

it took the Allies significant resources and years or planning, trainning, preparing, etc. to achieve a 5-division invasion in 1944

And of couse German dive-bombing were top notch, but battleships were very tough targets; unless torpedoes are in the equation
User avatar
TulliusDetritus
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:49 am
Location: The Zone™

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

I didn't know it was their strategy to wait a bit....

The British did NOT want to wait. Their guts were telling them to stop them on D-Day itself. They were forced to adopt this strategy ("wait a bit"). Yes, even the mighty Royal Navy could not stop those landings. I mean, the British themselves believed that. And those people knew perfectly what naval power means... ergo... [:)]

It is true that the torpedos are the deadly weapon (and the Germans lacked them). But well placed bombs can knock out a big ship for some weeks or months [8D] And the Germans were really good at that. For practical purposes, if these ships leave the area and the invasion goes unmolested the result is again the same.
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
User avatar
Jorge_Stanbury
Posts: 4345
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
Location: Montreal

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

Well I am thinking there was also this tremedous fear of level bombers as anti-shipping weapons, and this was proven wrong only by mid 1942. So it is also possible that the British were overstimating the risks to their fleet.

In the scenario of Great Britain's survival at the stake, I bet they would just keep their damaged ships fighting until the end.




User avatar
TulliusDetritus
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:49 am
Location: The Zone™

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Well I am thinking there was also this tremedous fear of level bombers as anti-shipping weapons, and this was proven wrong only by mid 1942. So it is also possible that the British were overstimating the risks to their fleet.

In the scenario of Great Britain's survival at the stake, I bet they would just keep their damaged ships fighting until the end.

For starters, I think the Germans had 0% chances of successfully invanding the British Isles [8D] Period.

As for fighting to death (the big ships)... hummm... *politics, my friend* Churchill -again in his WW2 memoirs- says here and there (more than once that is) that if events were going really wrong, he needed an *intact* Royal Navy to put on the negotiation table. He could not forget what happened with the French Fleet after the French surrendered.

So what would have prevailed? Pure military choices (a la Japanese => everyone dies) or politics? This we will never know. But we know Churchill (the Prime Minister after all) mentioned this political option. To press the Americans? Maybe.
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
HexHead
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by HexHead »

Churchill's government (a 'national' gov't under British procedures - there was no election, recall, Churchill succeeded to the PM's post) had made it about as clear as one can make it that there were to be no negotiations with the Hitlerite cabal.

Something about Naziism being eradicated from the face of the earth, IIRC. The RN was, if necessary, to remove to the western hemisphere to keep a fleet-in-being intact.

Not a bargaining chip. I've read the six-volume work more than once and some volumes thrice or more. Don't take a single sentence, musing about possibilities, as an actual policy.

As far as actuality?

"Not bloody likely, mate."
"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
HexHead
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by HexHead »

ADDENDUM TO ABOVE

From the remake of Battle of Britain (ca. 1970)(paraphrased):

[Bern- the British embassy]

Enter German diplomat (Curt Juergens):

GD: Why don't you surrender? You can't possibly face all of Europe alone.

Brit. Diplo. (Ralph Richardson): If you're so bloody sure of yourself, why don't you come across then? The last little corporal that tried it came a-cropper.

***

Damn straight.
"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
User avatar
TulliusDetritus
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:49 am
Location: The Zone™

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Churchill's government (a 'national' gov't under British procedures - there was no election, recall, Churchill succeeded to the PM's post) had made it about as clear as one can make it that there were to be no negotiations with the Hitlerite cabal.

Something about Naziism being eradicated from the face of the earth, IIRC. The RN was, if necessary, to remove to the western hemisphere to keep a fleet-in-being intact.

But eradicated by whom exactly? Not by the British. Why did they mobilize so few divisions (this always striked me: The British Empire was no small country. They had many resources)? Political decision taken very soon [;)] As if... somehow... sooner or later someone else might "eradicate" them. Namely the Red Army and eventually the Americans...

Read Churchill again. He mentions something like "we would hate to give the ships... but...". Ok, let's pretend he never said it. But we have to pay attention to a pure rhetorical piece: the eradicate speech thing. And this despite the British were TOTALLY uncapable of eradicating the Germans alone in the first place [:D]

This is the crude real world, politics, not Walt Dysney, mate [8D]
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
HexHead
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by HexHead »

I think your shades of meaning & understanding are a bit off. In 1940, the central point was not BWAHAHA, we gotcha sucker, but that the UK would not surrender or negotiate with those thugs. Also, there was no way the UK was going to hand over the Home Fleet to get a better deal. (A) there was no deal & would be no deal, (B) the UK wasn't stupid and most certainly wasn't going to hand over a force capable of giving the USN a run for its money.

That said, I'm done on this thread. I find the whole subject to be disquieting, and I don't like disquiet & upset with tiffin.
"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
User avatar
TulliusDetritus
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:49 am
Location: The Zone™

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Not a better deal. But to make sure the Americans would NEVER allow the British to fall [;)] Because er... nasty consequences might *follow* When desperate you use desperate tactics. Not surprising.

This is a what-if and LOL I hate what-ifs!
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
User avatar
Encircled
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:50 pm
Location: Northern England

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Encircled »

I think the book "Dunkirk, fight to the last man" by Hugh Sebag Montifiere (spelling?) has a couple of pages taken from cabinet meetings and I think (going from memory here) the cabinet talked about possible peace, but it never really took off. I'm fairly sure though that they were willing to listen to an approach through Mussolini, but didn't do anything more than that.

Having seen the German army plan for Seelion, and the much smaller German Navy plan for it, it wasn't really an option for the Germans.
Amoral
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:17 am

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Amoral »

Churchill in his memoirs talks about how he threatened the americans with a scenario where the british fleet would fight under Nazi flag in order to scare them into further lend lease payments.

It basically went:
Of course _I_ would never negotiate with the hitlerite thugs, but one can easily imagine a scenario where the nazis invade and install a Quisling government. And that puppet gov't might hand over the fleet. And then where would you be?
HexHead
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by HexHead »

He wasn't 'threatening' anyone. Reminding a would be ally of possible consequences, due to circumstances that would have long passed out of your control, is not a threat. It is what we in the business call 'a frank assessment.'
"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
Amoral
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:17 am

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by Amoral »

ORIGINAL: HexHead

He wasn't 'threatening' anyone. Reminding a would be ally of possible consequences, due to circumstances that would have long passed out of your control, is not a threat. It is what we in the business call 'a frank assessment.'

Before he sent that memo, he had already concluded that the situation was impossible. That it would never happen because his government would hand over the fleet to Canada or one of the other Dominions if the US had not entered the war when such a decision became necessary. It was not a frank assesment, it was a boogeyman.
HexHead
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:27 pm
Location: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by HexHead »

"The situation" is unclear to me. I don't think it was a 'boogeyman', nor was it a threat. It was HM PM letting the US know that dire consequences could obtain, but only if a horrific defeat had happened; not that it would obtain, but that prudence would dictate that the possibility not be discounted entirely.
"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
User avatar
AW1Steve
Posts: 14525
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:32 am
Location: Mordor aka Illlinois

RE: What if Hitler had Conquered Britain?

Post by AW1Steve »

Germany barely was successful in taking Norway by sea. Even Hitler didn't have too much hope for taking the UK by sea. As he once said, "On land I am a lion , at sea, a coward". The allies nearly failed in several invasions in spite of having nearly total air supremacy , specialized landing craft and ships, lots of training and experience , and absolute MARITIME supremacy (think Anzio). A German attempt to carry out Sea lion would make Dieppe look like a church social.
Post Reply

Return to “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition”