RAW 8 in MWIF?

[AlvaroSousa]

Will MWIF keep up with the rule changes in board game WIF? Currently they are using RAW8 rules. The game is RAW7 rules.

[gravyhair]

Well,RAW 8.0 isn't published yet. The game is coded to a slight variant of RAW 7.0, called "RAC" (Rules as COded).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: gravyhair

Well,RAW 8.0 isn't published yet. The game is coded to a slight variant of RAW 7.0, called "RAC" (Rules as COded).

warspite1

Given every change has to be coded, tested, de-bugged, re-tested etc I suspect not [;)]

[alexvand]

It's unfortunate really, as this is going to split the already small WiF community. Those of us who cannot play over the table are going to use MWiF and RAW 7 while the tabletop community is going to move to RAW8.

Not much can really be done about it though.

And I'm happy playing any flavour of WiF I can get!

[CrusssDaddy]

Any word on what the changes are for RAW 8?

[gravyhair]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Any word on what the changes are for RAW 8?

Well, there's the new Khaki in Flames simplified oil rule. Beyond that I'm not sure.

[delatbabel]

Having been to 2 WiFCons using RAW 8 and seen it progress from year to year, and after hearing Harry discuss the issues, I would say that RAW 8 still have a long way to go.

Note that Harry distributes the RAW 8 rules to WiFCon attendees with the heading "COMMERCIAL IN CONFIDENCE, NOT FOR GENERAL DISTRIBUTION". Although there are almost certainly a number of tabletop gamers who have moved to using one version or another of the WiFFE RAW 8 rules, it will be a while before they are in general use in the community. Having said that, all 3 WiFCons (Euro, Aus, US) are using RAW 8 rules as far as I know. Having a copy with that legend at the top, I can't of course distribute the rules or even quote at length from them, but I will summarise the major changes here.

Note that the general consensus is that the RAW 8 rules make the game much more likely to result in an Axis victory. There are also a number of extra options that can be included (or not) to balance the game one way or another. Given that my past experience with RAW 7 rules is that they are generally in favour of an allied victory, this is a major rebalancing.

* There are many more US entry options. Things like "Edward R Murrow Reporting from London" give the US more flexibility in tweaking tension rolls.
* The oil rules have been rewritten completely. You now spend oil to take actions, not to reorganise units.
* The O chit rule has been rewritten completely. There are now O points, which are in many ways more powerful. You can use them to reorganise (unflip) HQs, which is new and allows the Axis to penetrate much more deeply in the early assaults as they can use HQs many times in a turn. You can spend O points (as well as additional oil) to take extra partial actions, such as an air-land action which allows unlimited air and land activities without being a full "super combined".
* Significantly, all of a major powers submarines can now be moved from any number of ports to any number of sea areas and this only counts as one naval move. So the German player can move its entire submarine fleet in one combined impulse.
* The "nationalist Chinese attack weakness" optional rule is now an enforced rule in the game. Additionally, all Chinese units disappear from the game completely (i.e. are scrapped, meaning that they can never return even if China is liberated) should China be conquered.
* The production multiple chart has been tweaked significantly. Build points for the USSR have been greatly reduced, build points for Germany later in the war have also been reduced, whereas build points for the USA later in the war have been increased. This does tip the balance towards the Axis because Germany starts with a larger army and the USSR army will now no longer be large enough or resilient enough to survive a 1941 Barbarossa. However late in the game the USA can build an obscene number of O points meaning that almost every one of their units will be doubled.
* Submarines no longer have -1 combat factor in surface combats.
* There have been a number of other tweaks to rules governing territorials, militia, some of the campaigns, naval combat, etc. Most of these are relatively minor.

I would suggest that the above list is by no way final and likely to significant tweaking between now and when RAW 8 is finally released to the public. Some of the changes would be quite hard to implement in RAC, for example O points and the new oil rules which would require a complete re-coding of what's there. So I guess that the MWIF community is probably going to stay with RAW 7 for some time, and given the flexible state of RAW 8 I am guessing that that's more likely to result in the board gaming community generally staying with RAW 7 rather than a fragmentation of the community.

Personally, having played 2 games with RAW 8 and seeing the changes over time, I would not advise anyone who currently plays with RAW 7 to move to RAW 8 in a hurry.

[CrusssDaddy]

Thank you for that. Those are some rather fundamental changes. I like the idea of the new oil rules, the new O-chit rules less so -- the former appears to make the game less fiddly, the latter more.

[delatbabel]

I have to admit to not being a big fan of the new oil rules.

They are simpler, but not that much simpler. The main issues I have are that you have to pay attention to oil in every impulse of a turn, not just at the end of a turn when you are reorganising. However the counting of individual units in 10s or 20s to count your reorganisation is a pain, I admit that. The computer version of it is easier for sure.

What is the oil rule designed to achieve or simulate? To me, it's designed to simulate that oil was required to get planes in the air, tanks moving, ships out of port (or even having them stay in port, etc). To be able to fly a plane costs oil. If you want to fly it some more, it requires more oil. So to me, it makes sense to have an oil cost to reorganise a plane/mech unit if you want to use it again next turn (or even again in the same turn). It seems to me that the best simulation of that is the oil cost to reorganise units.

The nett effect of this, from a global war point of view, is that late in the war both Japan and Germany were desperately short of oil. They didn't have the oil required to keep the Luftwaffe flying, the Heer on the move and the Kriegsmarine steaming all at the same time. So the current oil rule simulates that quite well -- late in the war Germany will in fact have quite a large air force, but not enough oil to keep it all flying. Fairly close to what happened in the real war.

If it's free to reorganise units but costs oil to take impulses then it doesn't stop Germany having a large air force and using it again and again for defensive air support (which costs no oil). So personally I think that the new oil rule is broken and doesn't simulate what really happened in the war, because the Luftwaffe effectively has an infinite amount of fuel as long as it stays in defensive mode.

[brian brian]

the last copy I have looked at is version 8.82 I think. It is being worked on slowly and carefully, via extensive play testing of possible changes. There is no need to rush this game system, on paper, or on the computer. Anyone who wants can play the game with software outside of MWiF, with any rules they desire. MWiF will catch up when it can, some day, because people will want to buy a software version of the game.

I hope someone can code up a simple analyzer of saved MWiF games, to generate statistics on what happens in game, across hundreds or thousands of games, to really see what happens in the game in terms of units and quantities of them going on and off the map. that would be an incredible development tool for tweaking the rules of the game some day.



I too like the new oil rules, though with just some limited solitaire experience with them. I hope someday the game links an Oil usage rule with Pilot training, a dynamic feedback system that was very tough for the Axis to overcome historically. With less oil, their pilots got less training and then their pilots were less able to protect their Oil supplies…….

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the last copy I have looked at is version 8.82 I think. It is being worked on slowly and carefully, via extensive play testing of possible changes. There is no need to rush this game system, on paper, or on the computer. Anyone who wants can play the game with software outside of MWiF, with any rules they desire. MWiF will catch up when it can, some day, because people will want to buy a software version of the game.

I hope someone can code up a simple analyzer of saved MWiF games, to generate statistics on what happens in game, across hundreds or thousands of games, to really see what happens in the game in terms of units and quantities of them going on and off the map. that would be an incredible development tool for tweaking the rules of the game some day.



I too like the new oil rules, though with just some limited solitaire experience with them. I hope someday the game links an Oil usage rule with Pilot training, a dynamic feedback system that was very tough for the Axis to overcome historically. With less oil, their pilots got less training and then their pilots were less able to protect their Oil supplies…….

MWIF currently generates a Record Log file for every game. It starts fresh when a game is restored. Although undocumented at the moment, I do have files that explain every entry as raw strings. My idea was to be able (someday) to replay a game by restoring a saved game and then having the program execute the entries in the Record Log file. There would need to be some controls for stopping and stepping through the game. It might be possible to run the game in reverse too - but that would require additional work.

Here are some of the data (there are 584 record log types):

---
rs_FPlc = 'FPlc: Place fort on map.';
rs_FDel = 'FDel: Remove fort from map.';
rs_MPlE = 'MPlE: Place marker in Germany/Italy pool.';
rs_MPlP = 'MPlP: Place marker in Japan pool.';
rs_StHC = 'StHC: Set hex control at start of scenario.';
rs_StHo = 'StHo: Set home country at start of scenario.';
rs_UAAd = 'UAAd: Add unit to force or lend lease pool (annual additions).';
rs_MAAd = 'MAAd: Select marker for placement.';
rs_USAd = 'USAd: Add unit to force pool (special MIL addition).';
rs_Stry = 'Stry: Change the sentry status of a unit.';
rs_OrSt = 'OrSt: Change the organization status of a unit.';
rs_UDes = 'UDes: Destroy unit by placing it in DestroyedPool.';
rs_URel = 'URel: Place unit in RelocateStack.';
rs_URbs = 'URbs: Place unit in RebaseStack.';
rs_URet = 'URet: Place unit in RetreatStack.';
rs_URTB = 'URTB: Place unit in ReturnToBase.';
rs_Scrp = 'Scrp: Decide whether to scrap (3) units.';
rs_UScp = 'UScp: Scrap a single unit.';
rs_SCMP = 'SCMP: A major power has finished scrapping its destroyed units.';
rs_SCDo = 'SCDo: All major powers have finished scrapping destroyed units.';
rs_RLDo = 'RLDo: All major powers have finished relocating units.';
rs_ORDo = 'ORDo: All major powers have finished overrunnig units.';
rs_RBDo = 'RBDo: All major powers have finished returning units to base.';
rs_NIDo = 'NIDo: All major powers have finished Naval Interception.';
rs_NADo = 'NADo: All major powers have finished Naval Combat Abort.';
rs_URep = 'URep: Replace a unit.';
rs_URei = 'URei: Place unit on map.';
rs_PRei = 'PRei: Place pilot in available pool.';
rs_CRei = 'CRei: Place carrier pilot in available pool.';
rs_FRei = 'FRei: Place fort in available pool.';
rs_ORei = 'ORei: Add offensive chit to # available.';
rs_DRei = 'DRei: Delay entry of a reinforcement.';
rs_RRei = 'RRei: Remove air unit from map to reserve pool';
rs_HRei = 'HRei: Place half built naval unit into Construction pool.';
rs_Trad = 'Trad: Create or modify trade agreement.';
rs_StrX = 'StrX: Record straits hexes crossed in a rail move.';
rs_CMap = 'CMap: Redraw convoy map.';
rs_Sect = 'Sect: Choose the section box for a unit.';
rs_DRoS = 'DRoS: Set flag that unit was disorganized at start of phase.';
rs_ChCo = 'ChCo: Change which county owns a unit.';
rs_ChMo = 'ChMo: Change data on whether a unit has moved in an impulse.';
rs_ChPt = 'ChPt: Change the number oil or build points a unit has.';
rs_UDel = 'UDel: Delete a unit.';
rs_InRo = 'InRo: Roll for initiative.';
rs_IRRR = 'IRRR: Reroll request.';
rs_Frst = 'Frst: Which side goes first.';
rs_Weat = 'Weat: Weather for the turn.';
rs_WeUX = 'WeUX: Unit destroyed because lake froze or melted.';
rs_DOWP = 'DOWP: Declare war on a major power.';
rs_DOWC = 'DOWC: Declare war on a minor power.';


TRL_StrX = record // Record straits hexes crossed in a rail move.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
SSide: Byte; // TSides.
SCount: Byte;
SData: TRailMoveStraitsUsed;
end;

TRL_CMap = record // Redraw convoy map.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
CNum1: Byte; // TMajorCountries.
end;

TRL_Sect = record // Choose the section box for a unit.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
UnitID: Word;
USection: Byte;
end;

TRL_DRoS = record // Set flag that unit was disorganized at start of phase.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
UnitID: Word;
UnitDisruptedAtReorgStart: Boolean;
end;

TRL_ChCo = record // Change which county owns a unit.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF)
UnitID: Word;
CountryID: TCountryID;
ChangeSource: Boolean;
ShowMess: Boolean;
end;

TRL_ChMo = record // Change data on whether a unit has moved in an impulse.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF)
UnitID: Word;
UMovedInImpulse: Boolean;
UMovedInTurn: Boolean;
UMPUsed: Byte;
URangeUsed: Byte;
end;

TRL_ChPt = record // Change the number oil or build points a unit has.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
Increas: Boolean; // Increase or decrease.
CombiningOilPts: Boolean;
UnitID: Word;
OldLoc: TUnitLocation; // Old location: (Column, Row).
Points: Byte; // # of points.
end;

TRL_UDel = record // Delete a unit.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
UnitID: Word;
end;

TRL_InRo = record // Roll for initiative.
MsgID: Integer;
EntryNum: Integer;
TransNum: Integer;
By: Byte; // Who recorded the entry = PlayerNum or 0 (MWIF).
AxisRoll: Byte; // What the Axis rolled.
AlliedRoll: Byte; // What the Allies rolled.
Reroll: Boolean;
RerollSide: Byte; // Ord(TSides).
NewInitiative: Byte; // Ord(TInitiativeSides).
NewInitiativeBonus: Byte; // Ord(TInitiativeBonus).
end;



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