Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

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davidx
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Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by davidx »

Hello,

I much preferred v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272. Casualties seemed much more inline with historical rates for a intense battles.

Version 4.6.272 like prior versions allows what appears to be tendency to allow the most negligible type units to have such huge impacts as to make the game unplayable. It used to be mortar units, now its this type unit.

Attached is one:

IR394 has held off assaulting and moving infantry companies for 6 hours. This happens games after game, not just a bad roll on the random number generator for a specific game. With three men, with carbine rifles, in a non-descript wood section has stalled columns, fought off and causing causing retreats of assaulting 150 man infantry companies. How do they even have ammunition. Attached figure is latest snapshot. 4 companies on max aggression, max ROF and not only it does not retreat, surrender, disbanded, it has improved cohesion, improved position to deployed while under fire.

For an operational level games, in my opinion, these types of game issues make it not enjoyably playable. I might as well roll a 1d6 dice, 1-3 i win, 4-6 i lose and save hours of time.





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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by davidx »

Cannot up load saved games anymore? I thought I have uploaded zip versions in the past, now not any more?

regards,
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dazkaz15
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by dazkaz15 »

Hi David

Its very interesting that you chose this unit as an example of holding out for a very long time.
Please read about the I&R Platoon and Lyle Bouck in this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lanzerath_Ridge

I'm not saying its working right in game, as I haven't had time to play the new patch yet, I just think its amusing/interesting you chose this unit for your example [:)]

I hope you didn't use the Historical German Tactics of a frontal attack, and instead put in some flanking attacks, or try to surround it [;)]
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by Mahatma »

I had the same problem with IR394 months back, routing then returning on D2 with 3 men. It was insane to the point where I identified 'IR394' with superhuman determination. Then I accidentally found out about Lyle Bouck on wikipedia, and it clicked that it was the same regiment. At which point I had a good laugh for 5 minutes at the bizarre coincidence.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by danlongman »

Now that is really interesting.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by Arjuna »

ORIGINAL: davidx

Cannot up load saved games anymore? I thought I have uploaded zip versions in the past, now not any more?

regards,
You are right. Looks like Matrix is no longer supporting zip files. Look try changing the suffix from .zip to .txt. Mention that you have doe this in your post and then email me with a link top that post and I will know to change the suffix back after downloading it.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: davidx
I much preferred v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272. Casualties seemed much more inline with historical rates for a intense battles.

We much discussed this, David. And we saw that indeed, for very intense battles, casualty rates in the range of 25% to 50% over a 24 hour period were common. Such losses basically rendered those outfits combat ineffective for days or weeks. The problem is that we were getting rates much higher than that, and the kind of aggression the AI showed was making Terminator look like a Quaker. If you want higher casualty rates, you just need to raise the lethality of the weapons with the Estab Editor at your leisure and pump up the stats of the units in ScenMaker.
ORIGINAL: davidx
Attached is one:

IR394 has held off assaulting and moving infantry companies for 6 hours. This happens games after game, not just a bad roll on the random number generator for a specific game. With three men, with carbine rifles, in a non-descript wood section has stalled columns, fought off and causing causing retreats of assaulting 150 man infantry companies. How do they even have ammunition. Attached figure is latest snapshot. 4 companies on max aggression, max ROF and not only it does not retreat, surrender, disbanded, it has improved cohesion, improved position to deployed while under fire.

We need to verify that 'game after game' thing: if this unit shows that kind of staying power, every given Sunday and regardless of the tactics used, it is a problem.
ORIGINAL: davidx
For an operational level games, in my opinion, these types of game issues make it not enjoyably playable. I might as well roll a 1d6 dice, 1-3 i win, 4-6 i lose and save hours of time.

In that screenshot, you were rolling a 4-6, mate. The thing is that that outcome is not apparent: there's no pop-up telling you "A1" or similar. You need to assess the situation, and react accordingly.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by vandorenp »

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

ORIGINAL: davidx

Cannot up load saved games anymore? I thought I have uploaded zip versions in the past, now not any more?

regards,
You are right. Looks like Matrix is no longer supporting zip files. Look try changing the suffix from .zip to .txt. Mention that you have doe this in your post and then email me with a link top that post and I will know to change the suffix back after downloading it.
This happened a year or so ago. Then later it came back.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by davidx »

Hello,

zip file of saved game at snap shot of post #1, rename as .txt file

regards,
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by simovitch »

The I&R platoon foxholes are still there in the woods line, and you get a great view of the Losheim Gap over to the Schnee Eifel from that hill. I found a 60mm mortar base in the clearing behind these positions last time I was there.

My brother and I are leading a group of wargamer's on a 1 week tour of the Ardennes, Hurtgen forest, and Hell's highway in October and this is one of our favorite spots. If anyone of you guys are seriously interested in joining our group we may be able to fit you in. PM me only if you are seriously interested.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by Arjuna »

Remember this Richard from our 2008 tour.

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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by simovitch »

yep, that looks like the place!
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by davidx »

Hello,

Another example of many occurrences of ir394 making super-diety like stands. IR394, always down to 3 guys, rout recovering for hrs under constant overwhelming superior assaulting numbers not being destroyed, disbanded, or etc.

Checking scenario editor, ir394 has tenacious determination, but the attacking units are not generally inferior with some equal units thrown in. in my opinion determination would keep you in a entrenchment longer, push your self harder during a march, take a chance but it is not magic shield from bullets. They should in fact become causalities quicker because of that same determination.

As a side note, from your photographs, it appears the allied units should starts as dug-in versus entrenched from what i would envision.

regards,


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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by dazkaz15 »

I managed to play a quick scenario over the weekend.

This latest patch really does slow the game down again.
Progress is slowed to roughly the same pace as before the big patch with all the supply work.
It makes the game far more challenging than v4.6.270, and allows the AI more time to defend
.
Routed recovering units do tend to hang around longer, when in close contact with the enemy.
There might be a bit of a problem there, but as my units in close contact with them were not taking damage I role played it as time taken to process prisoners, and send them to the rear.

What ever it was you did to slow the casualty rate, could even be used as a difficulty setting option in Command Ops 2.

I personally liked this difficulty, but I am quite an experienced player now, and can understand that it may not appeal to all.

david
The photos Dave posted are after 74 years of erosion.
Entrenched in game represents, dug in positions that have had time to build overhead cover.
Historically these positions would have had that.

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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by dazkaz15 »

I ran the I Bn 27 Fus Regt through Lanzerath, and into a position ready to attack Bucholz Station 4 times, with the AI set to auto attack on route.
In all 4 cases the Bn had pushed through the 1 Pl A Coy 820 TD Bn defending Lanzerath, and the I&R Pl defending the Ridge by midday D1.

As per history the AI made them attack directly up the exposed ridge, so that bit is working well [:'(] [:D]
If microed properly by the player with flanking attack through the forest I expect the result would be even better.

Friendly casualties were very light, as the US artillery is out of range or unavailable for this position, early in the morning, as it was historically..

I did properly support it with 2 Bn's of Artillery from Division though on 2 of the occasions.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by navwarcol »

Just a correction, I think it is 70 years since the battle rather than 74.
Excellent points Daz... may I say I really love how you break things down here in all of your posts.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: dazkaz15

I managed to play a quick scenario over the weekend.

Thanks for the feedback Daz. But we need something more concrete regarding the following:
ORIGINAL: dazkaz15
This latest patch really does slow the game down again.
Progress is slowed to roughly the same pace as before the big patch with all the supply work.
It makes the game far more challenging than v4.6.270, and allows the AI more time to defend
.

Here we need a more concrete assessment of how the timing of outcomes have changed. Are we talking about a variation of "same outcome required 50% more time to happen" or "required several times more time to happen"?
ORIGINAL: dazkaz15
Routed recovering units do tend to hang around longer, when in close contact with the enemy.
There might be a bit of a problem there, but as my units in close contact with them were not taking damage I role played it as time taken to process prisoners, and send them to the rear.

When you say "close contact" what do you mean? Distances below 1 km but above 200 meters? Note that units retreat as an effect of enemy action, not just mere presence (i.e. they're aware of enemy units presence nearby). Having units actively engaged is a requirement for a unit to retreat, and "passive" tasks such as rest or defend, will make units much less likely to engage enemies (unless those enemies are deemed to be active i.e. advancing on one's position).
ORIGINAL: dazkaz15
What ever it was you did to slow the casualty rate, could even be used as a difficulty setting option in Command Ops 2.

The most important change was to be much more conservative when it comes to assess the accuracy of fires. We checked some sources - specifically the WO 291/476 study conducted by the British Army in 1944-45 - and saw to our surprise, that the average rifleman hardly hit a target 50% of the time at a distance below 100 meters, automatic weapons being more "accurate" - as in achieving more hits per unit of time - due to having higher rates of fire. These studies were conducted on firing ranges, so they don't factor battle stress or fatigue.

Indeed, that was the British experience in World War 2, that with some provisions I reckon can be safely extrapolated to all other major combatants in World War 2. Armies with poorer standards when it came to training - such as the Red Army - should indeed feature poorer "average performance". We reckon this can be accounted for by setting Training and Experience levels to a suitable value.

When it comes to asses contemporary experiences - that is anything after WW2 - I would expect units to feature much higher training levels than was common in a time of mass drafting.

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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by BletchleyGeek »

ORIGINAL: davidx

Hello,

Another example of many occurrences of ir394 making super-diety like stands. IR394, always down to 3 guys, rout recovering for hrs under constant overwhelming superior assaulting numbers not being destroyed, disbanded, or etc.

Checking scenario editor, ir394 has tenacious determination, but the attacking units are not generally inferior with some equal units thrown in. in my opinion determination would keep you in a entrenchment longer, push your self harder during a march, take a chance but it is not magic shield from bullets. They should in fact become causalities quicker because of that same determination.

As observed by Daz, the resilience of that unit is quite well explained by the terrain it is occupying and its level of entrenchment - which is very good. To make a comparison, you'll have to bring to bear about 10 times more firepower on those guys than on an undeployed force in the open, in order to have the same outcome (destruction by fire).

Regarding the unit traits. IR 394 relevant ratings to determine its resilience to surrendering or dispersion are

Commander Leadership (Good, 71%)
Cohesion (Organised, 80%)
Stubborness (Tenacious, 66%)

which makes them quite rock-solid, unless they're highly suppressed (which requires them to become heavily engaged).
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by Arjuna »

I have been looking at the Retreat() code this morning and in particular the probabilities and cicumstances by which we deem the unit would be better to stay put and run. Last night I watched a very toiugh German SS mech eng coy stand and eventually die to the man out in the open because everywhere he went was death. But he stayed there for hours. That IMO is not realistic. I am going to be adding another modifier to the stayPut probnability that effectives asks is the time I last took casualties less than the time I last retreated and if o thn reduce the prob based on my recent casualties.
 
But before I do that I am wating for my test scenario to run through to completion to see if the reduction in cas due to a destroyed vehicle is about right. My recent analysis of the cas rates led me to conclude that we were killing off way too many crew each time a vehicle is destroyed. We've been doing some more research on this issue and found that the average was around 25 to 33%. At the moment it's around the 50% mark.
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RE: Prefer v4.6.270 vs 4.6.272

Post by simovitch »

I am blowing through Elsenborn Ridge like never before as Germans. Although I didn't play it with 270, I am at least 12 hours ahead of the historical time table with 272. The 394th I&R never even popped up, it disintegrated with the rush of FJ assaulting through Lanzarath. Bulingen was occupied on the morning of the 17th and KGP has exited during the afternoon. I never got these kind of historical results during initial design of this scenario.

On the other hand, I got stonewalled as the 4th Armoured in the relief of Bastogne in "Battered Bastards". Just hammered by the German FJ and the artillery. I finally made headway after a few days by shear weight of numbers.

It's very close to the right amount of resistance, casualties and retreating in my opinion. It's about time to leave well enough alone.
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