...again...

[Alejo1968]

Well, it happened to me the same before purchasing "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" and "Matrix World in Flames".
The price was quite high (specially in my country), but also they were such unique games that you knew they would stay in your hard drive for years, and I mean MANY years.

So, I have my finger a couple of milimeters from the mouse button ready to press it... But would you really recommend me to purchase it? I´m not familiar with War in the East, as I never felt atracted by that front´s history, but alway wanted to simulate the west front.
I like in a game a strategic view of the conflict, but when I saw this statement it really took my attention:

"Scale is Division/Brigade/Regiment with supporting Battalions, but modeled down to the last man, tank and gun"...

I know what "modelled" means but... could this be a game that gives you enough info to let you imaging a Tank platoon about to be engaged by the enemy?. I mean, I not only like to step in the commander's place, but the soldier who follows its orders too. If a game gives me such detail, then insta purchase.

I think this could be that kind of game, but I need some help to press the button.
So, based in yout experience, what do you think about it?
Any advise would be of great help.

One more thing, do you think this is a better system than that of The Operational Art of War?

[zakblood]

that's a hard one, as i've not seen any info on the modelled down to the last man, tank and gun so would have to wait for others to post to make a more informed guess[X(]

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

I know what "modelled" means but... could this be a game that gives you enough info to let you imaging a Tank platoon about to be engaged by the enemy?. I mean, I not only like to step in the commander's place, but the soldier who follows its orders too. If a game gives me such detail, then insta purchase.

Instead of counters representing a whole unit, the unit is composed by single elements of the TOE that are the blocks of the combat resolution (if I'm describing it correctly). Thus every unit has a defined number of men, guns or tanks. This screen here shows how a unit with their elements is composed:

[Jim D Burns]

Unit combat abilities are not simply numbers on a counter, instead units are made up of equipment items that combined together make up the formations abilities in combat. So individual items are modeled, but this is an operational game and not as tactical as you are thinking. Battles are detailed but it all takes place behind the scenes, what you see is the final result of the battle laid out in casualty counts and odds ratios.

Jim

[Alejo1968]

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers

[SigUp]

Divisions can be further broken down into regiments. The smallest unit that is represented as an on-map counter is the regiment. Individual (separate) battalions and companies also exist, but they are attached as support units to HQs or divisions.

[Erik Rutins]

Yes, you can divide divisions into regiments/brigades. The game also goes down to the battalion level for support units, which can be attached/detached from larger units (up to three per division).

Combat resolution can also be watched down to the individual squad or tank shooting, but for most the detailed summary of what each squad/tank/gun did is enough information. There are multiple levels of combat resolution though so that you can find the one that you like best.

Regards,

- Erik

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers

Most units can be divided into three. But units smaller than a brigade or regiment will be treated as support units and listed off map as a support unit on another units card. So for example let’s assume I divide an on-map armor brigade into three.

I will then have 3 units listed in the HQ’s support units list named 1/unit name, 2/unit name and 3/unit name. These three units can be left in the HQ’s support list and will be added to combats or not during turn execution based on leader commitment die rolls, or I can attach the units individually to an on map division and they will be intrinsic parts of that division for all purposes until I decide to pull them off the divisions card.

Jim

[Alejo1968]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Unit combat abilities are not simply numbers on a counter, instead units are made up of equipment items that combined together make up the formations abilities in combat. So individual items are modeled, but this is an operational game and not as tactical as you are thinking. Battles are detailed but it all takes place behind the scenes, what you see is the final result of the battle laid out in casualty counts and odds ratios.

Jim

No, dont get me wrong, I know its not tactical.
I just would like it to tell me there is acompany of sherman tanks (amongst other resources) engaging Pz IVHs, in open terrain, in mud conditions, etc... that kind of info. This way you get a "visual" idea of what is happening on the ground, which helps immersion and not only becomes mathematical calculations. I dont want to control them, I just would like to have deeper presentation of the outcome of the ground battle, in a clearer way than most games usually offer us...

[Alejo1968]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, you can divide divisions into regiments/brigades. The game also goes down to the battalion level for support units, which can be attached/detached from larger units (up to three per division).

Combat resolution can also be watched down to the individual squad or tank shooting, but for most the detailed summary of what each squad/tank/gun did is enough information. There are multiple levels of combat resolution though so that you can find the one that you like best.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks Erik, guess this is exactly what I was looking for.
Jim, Sigup, thanks for taking the time to enilghten me.

S!

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Unit combat abilities are not simply numbers on a counter, instead units are made up of equipment items that combined together make up the formations abilities in combat. So individual items are modeled, but this is an operational game and not as tactical as you are thinking. Battles are detailed but it all takes place behind the scenes, what you see is the final result of the battle laid out in casualty counts and odds ratios.

Jim

No, dont get me wrong, I know its not tactical.
I just would like it to tell me there is acompany of sherman tanks (amongst other resources) engaging Pz IVHs, in open terrain, in mud conditions, etc... that kind of info. This way you get a "visual" idea of what is happening on the ground, which helps immersion and not only becomes mathematical calculations. I dont want to control them, I just would like to have deeper presentation of the outcome of the ground battle, in a clearer way than most games usually offer us...

This is from WITE, WITW should work similarly. It's a combat resolution on the highest message settings. You can watch a single battle for a pretty long time using those settings:

[Alejo1968]

That pretty much answers my question, a single small unit and its target (and the outcome of the engagement), presented in an Strategic/operational level wargame.

[Alejo1968]

Up and running, thanks for the help!

[wodin]

Your looking for a different scale wargame I feel. Something maybe at Coy level.

Immersion of the type your after is a very difficult thing to obtain from this scale wargame. I found Decisive Campaigns to have it more than most and DC 3 looks like it will have it in spades.

It is a bonus that for wargamers like me and you things are modeled down to the individual unit however again at this scale I'm not so sure it helps that much to the sort of immersion your after.

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01
Up and running, thanks for the help!

Great, enjoy!

[FroBodine]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers

Most units can be divided into three. But units smaller than a brigade or regiment will be treated as support units and listed off map as a support unit on another units card. So for example let’s assume I divide an on-map armor brigade into three.

I will then have 3 units listed in the HQ’s support units list named 1/unit name, 2/unit name and 3/unit name. These three units can be left in the HQ’s support list and will be added to combats or not during turn execution based on leader commitment die rolls, or I can attach the units individually to an on map division and they will be intrinsic parts of that division for all purposes until I decide to pull them off the divisions card.

Jim

Does the manual explain exactly how to do this for a newbie - how to divide an on-map unit into smaller units, and how to attach those units from the HQ support list to another on map division?

[FroBodine]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

I know what "modelled" means but... could this be a game that gives you enough info to let you imaging a Tank platoon about to be engaged by the enemy?. I mean, I not only like to step in the commander's place, but the soldier who follows its orders too. If a game gives me such detail, then insta purchase.

Instead of counters representing a whole unit, the unit is composed by single elements of the TOE that are the blocks of the combat resolution (if I'm describing it correctly). Thus every unit has a defined number of men, guns or tanks. This screen here shows how a unit with their elements is composed:

Does this game have tooltips for everything? So for example, in this image, if I hover over EXP, RDY, DAM or FAT, is there a tooltip that explains what these mean? Or, are they at least explained in the manual? Tooltips solve so many frustrations in games for people trying to learn what all the numbers mean.

Thanks!

[cmunson]

There are many tool tips present in the game but the items you specifically mention don't have them since they are just column headings. They stand for Experience, Ready, Damaged and Fatigue.

With an experience of 85 this is a well trained, high morale unit (higher numbers better). Ready is just the number of elements available for action (e.g, 189 .30 cal mg's). This unit is full strength as the TOE 100/100 indicates (100%). The unit has low fatigue (lower numbers better) so won't have any movement or combat penalties.

Yes, the manual is very detailed and there are lots of screen shots in it with all the elements explained.

[FroBodine]

1. Column headings is exactly where there SHOULD be tooltips. Especially with abbreviated column headings. A tooltip explaining what each item means, exactly as you described them, goes a long way in helping new players. Like EXP - 85 is good, but out of what? Is the highest 100? And RDY - knowing I have 36 rifle squads doesn't help me unless I know out of how many total? And FAT - what is the scale? 0-10 with 0 being no fatigue? Are these things explained in the manual, please? If there were tooltips right there detailing this, the problem would be solved.

2. Does the manual go into detail about breaking up and transferring units as Jim Burns explained above - how to divide an on-map unit into smaller units, and how to attach those units from the HQ support list to another on map division?

I am still deciding if this game is for me, so all these little details about user-friendliness and manual detail will help me make my decision.

Thank you for the response.

[RedLancer]

All the questions you ask are explained in the manual and the important ones in the Handbook. Some of the answers are simple like dividing units is hotkey-B and recombining them is the same. Others are more complicated. There is so much to know there have been times in development I've forgotten things.

I'll not flannel you - this game is complex and as you dig into the detail you learn more. Knowing things like the Experience, Fatigue and number of Ready elements in a Unit won't stop you attacking with it but may stop you winning. The game is like playing the stock market or drinking wine. Buying shares and drinking wine are easy. Making money and knowing a good bottle are a different issue.