P-400 for air-to-air?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Any thoughts on the P-400? how good is it compared to P-40E or P-39D? I am asking specifically as a fighter plane, for escort/ CAP/ sweep purposes

By looking at the stats I would say it should be better than the P-39D but worst than the P-40E; but I haven't see it in action yet.

So far my preferred early war Allied fighter planes are, in order:
- P-38
- P-40 and equivalents (Kittyhawks)
- Wildcats
- Hurricane IIs
- P-40B and equivalents
- P-39

I haven't seen action with P-400, Sea Hurricanes, yet

and everything else (Buffalos, Hurricane I, P-36s, etc) is just cannon fodder not suitable for front line; even P-39s in my experience is close to garbage against Zeros

[Lokasenna]

You should learn to love the humble P-39D and P-400 [:)]. In my experience, both are better than the P-40E. The P-40K is superior to them, but until you get to that model you need both the P-39 and P-40. You don't get enough of the P-400s to use them extensively, but they are a slight upgrade on the P-39.

It is a low-altitude plane, despite having a higher max altitude than the P-40E. I used them to success (even against stratosweeps) by placing them on CAP at 9000. Still less maneuverable than a Zero or Oscar, but faster and more durable. It packs a punch, too - that centerline cannon will shoot down Japanese aircraft much more quickly than "just" .50-cals. At <10K feet, it is actually comparable (or better than) the F4F-4 Wildcat.

For these reasons, I rate the P-39 equally with the P-40E and F4F-4... so, on par with your two mainstays until you get late-war planes. You don't get enough P-38s, even if you have PDU On to plunder the E-models from the CONUS training groups, to field more than about 5-6 groups until late 1943. You need to fill in with your work horses, and that's the P-40E and P-39.

I find that the P-40B is an inferior aircraft due to:
-No drop tanks
-Worse guns, it does have 2x CL .50-cals but that is negated by only have .30-cals in the wings
-No bomb option
-Not enough of a maneuverability/climb boost to make it worth using over the P-39D


Hurricanes are great, but a little on the slower side and they don't climb very well. If you use them as a high-altitude plane, you might do OK. They are still very maneuverable, for an armored Allied plane, at low altitudes...but not that great. I like both the -IIb and II-c models. I find the -IIa to be undergunned and therefore underwhelming.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Interesting that you prefer P-39s; in my game I had P-40Es/ Bs and P-39Ds defending P. Moresby and the P-39s were massacred, while the P-40s hold their own and had better kill ratio. But of course, one example doesn't make a rule
I will try placing them at lower altitude and see how it goes

P-39s big gun is great for straffing, but not so good against airplanes (very low accuracy). This is where the P-400 becomes convincing; 20mm can do wonders, specially against the low durability Japanese planes.

In my game, it is mid May 42, I have enough P-400s to fill 2 squadrons + plenty of replacements or to fill 3 squadrons + stretch replacement.
I have barely enough P-38s to fill 2 squadrons, and for the time being, tight on replacements.

Most other non CONUS squadrons are either P-40Es or P-39s; as you said like them or not; these 2 are your workhorses.

P-40B is an early war plane, and by now, by simple attrition, it is no longer in the front lines. The few remaining are either in CONUS, Aleutians or Pearl Harbor. I liked the way they performed, but your comments are very valid, specially the lack of drop tanks which is a big issue on the Pacific.

[Chickenboy]

Like the old expression. A P-400 is a P-40 with a 'zero' on its tail. [;)]

[IdahoNYer]

I've been pleasantly surprised with the P-39 in my current PBEM (DBB-C). It has done much better against Zeros than the P-40E. Hurris have also done fairly well. A lot of variables of course - pilot quality and fatigue. We've also prohibited Strato-sweeps which has most definitely helped. P-400 hasn't been baptized yet, but I'm expecting it to be similar to the P-39.

Of course in early '42, I'll take any airframe I can (PDU OFF). I'm still flying the P-40B, P-36 and Buffaloes in front line service going into May 42.

[rms1pa]

i am just happy to have anything which will fly CAP

i even had some success with seagulls vs bettys.

if the zeros are shooting at the floatplanes they are not strafing.

imho the p400 is a p39 in metric.

rms/pa

[btd64]

I think I read that the P-400 is the export version of the P-39....GP

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

I think I read that the P-400 is the export version of the P-39....GP

Actually, I think it's the reverse. The P-39 was meant to be used by the Allies, while the P-400 was simply a redesignation of the plane by the USAAF. Although I did come across at least one source with a google just now that claimed P-400 was the RAF designation... I'm more inclined to believe that the devs got it right in the game, however, with the only P-400s in the OOB being in the USAAF...

There was the slight armament difference as well.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

I think I read that the P-400 is the export version of the P-39....GP

Yes; but with a 20mm Hispano gun, accuracy = 26 vs. P-39s 37mm T9, accuracy=5

Which means a lot for air-to-air combat

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: General Patton

I think I read that the P-400 is the export version of the P-39....GP

Actually, I think it's the reverse. The P-39 was meant to be used by the Allies, while the P-400 was simply a redesignation of the plane by the USAAF. Although I did come across at least one source with a google just now that claimed P-400 was the RAF designation... I'm more inclined to believe that the devs got it right in the game, however, with the only P-400s in the OOB being in the USAAF...

There was the slight armament difference as well.

The British didn't like their "Airacobras" so they dumped them to the Soviet Union after been in action briefly. While the USA took what was left, under designation P-400

They were supposed to be used for training only, but scarcity of planes meant they were needed for action in the Pacific

[rms1pa]

ORIGINAL: General Patton

I think I read that the P-400 is the export version of the P-39....GP

the story i heard they were bought by the Swedes (hence the metric and oxygen problems) but prior to delivery congress/export board/british stopped export to sweden as too chummy with the reich.

rms/pa

[wdolson]

The P-400 story:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p39_5.html

Bill

[crsutton]

Under the latest version of the game, it seems like in the early months the P40E Hurricane II and P39 all performed about the same. Pilot skill was the only real issue. I played a prior full campaign vs Viberpol until 8/1/45. It was a stock game and basically the P39, P400, and Hurricane were pretty sad. The P40E was better but still beat up by the Tojo. In our new campaign we are wrapping up 1942 and with the betas, Da Babes and tweaks to air combat all three fighters have done much better. My highest killing unit was a P39 squadron and I have a lot of top British pilots who cut their teeth in the Hurricane. I would rate them all about equal now. The P40K is good enough to tangle with the Tojo.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The P-400 story:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p39_5.html

Bill

What, actual facts being quoted! [:'(]

[bomccarthy]

Although it is a bit pricey (I think I paid almost $70 on Amazon), I found Francis Dean's America's Hundred Thousand to be one of the best books on WWII US fighters. A retired aerospace engineer and member of the American Aviation Historical Society, Dean has a knack for clearly explaining engineering concepts for non-engineers, like me. He goes into great detail about each of the 11 fighters the US produced during the war, describing how the supercharger layouts worked on each and the aircraft handling in various maneuvers and flight regimes.

Relevant to this thread, he explains why the P-39 was feared by most novice pilots (as the 37mm ammo was used up, the cg moved backwards until it was so far behind the mean aerodynamic chord the airplane became unstable in most maneuvers), yet was liked by most veteran pilots for its light controls and flight qualities below 15,000 feet.

[Lowpe]

I have a book somewhere here that stated the Airacobra line had the most kills of any US Fighter in WW2. I believe they counted all the exported planes to get to that total. I will try to find that documentation...

[wdolson]

Wikipedia claims that too, though they don't give the source of the citation. The P-39 had a fairly lackluster career in the USAAF:

http://www.warbirdsandairshows.com/aircraftvictorieswwii.htm

The Soviets would have had to shoot down well over 5000 Germans with the P-39 to top the P-51's record. They would have had to shoot down nearly 5000 to top the F6F, which had the best kill to loss ratio of any fighter in US service.

Bill

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Under the latest version of the game, it seems like in the early months the P40E Hurricane II and P39 all performed about the same. Pilot skill was the only real issue. I played a prior full campaign vs Viberpol until 8/1/45. It was a stock game and basically the P39, P400, and Hurricane were pretty sad. The P40E was better but still beat up by the Tojo. In our new campaign we are wrapping up 1942 and with the betas, Da Babes and tweaks to air combat all three fighters have done much better. My highest killing unit was a P39 squadron and I have a lot of top British pilots who cut their teeth in the Hurricane. I would rate them all about equal now. The P40K is good enough to tangle with the Tojo.

I'm playing Loka in stock and the Hurricane is really a poor performer. Yet it has to be used for a huge swath of game time. I'm glad the newer mods have re-balanced it. I don't think it was as bad as stock makes it.

The P-39 is a good little anti-shipping unit early in the expansion phase. Not many players seem to use single-engine Army planes on ships, but even mini-bombs can start fires and they do a hurting on an xAKL.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Under the latest version of the game, it seems like in the early months the P40E Hurricane II and P39 all performed about the same. Pilot skill was the only real issue. I played a prior full campaign vs Viberpol until 8/1/45. It was a stock game and basically the P39, P400, and Hurricane were pretty sad. The P40E was better but still beat up by the Tojo. In our new campaign we are wrapping up 1942 and with the betas, Da Babes and tweaks to air combat all three fighters have done much better. My highest killing unit was a P39 squadron and I have a lot of top British pilots who cut their teeth in the Hurricane. I would rate them all about equal now. The P40K is good enough to tangle with the Tojo.

I'm playing Loka in stock and the Hurricane is really a poor performer. Yet it has to be used for a huge swath of game time. I'm glad the newer mods have re-balanced it. I don't think it was as bad as stock makes it.

The P-39 is a good little anti-shipping unit early in the expansion phase. Not many players seem to use single-engine Army planes on ships, but even mini-bombs can start fires and they do a hurting on an xAKL.

I think it's because the Hurricane is just so slow. It does alright against Oscars and early Zeroes, but the .303 MGs on the -IIb just aren't enough. The cannons on the -IIc make it a bit better... if they can hit.

Tojos are enough faster than the Hurricane that they will penalize its already sub-par maneuver values.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

Check this video:

Introduction to the P-39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLeYWkx2Jlg